The 1980 Ladies Olympic SP: Potzsch vs Lenz

[savchenkoboss]

Double loop-triple toe.

Wow, never seen her do anything that hard. Maybe that explains why apparently she screwed up her short in every competition that year, Europeans, Worlds, Olympics, her own Nationals, as she was "planning" on a combo she was never likely to carry out, and that nobody else was doing so wasnt needed, for some inexplicable reason. I guess she was really gunning to win the short.

 

[bardtoob]

Double loop-triple toe.

...she screwed up her short in every competition that year, Europeans, Worlds, Olympics, her own Nationals, as she was "planning" on a combo she was never likely to carry out, and that nobody else was doing so wasnt needed, for some inexplicable reason.

Now that was a hail Mary ... But it was also her only option. Annett could not land a 2A or triple with her free leg in a forward position, with is necessary for a Loop jump to be the second jump in a combination. The only chance she had was to do a 2Lp then hope the exit had enough speed to make a triple possible ... Of course, Annett was no Midori Ito.

 

[berthesghost]

Well, nobody was Mindori starting with the fact that to this day she’s still the only woman to have anything even approaching a consistent 3x. Harding came closest but even then it only lasted about 6 months.

I think with Anett it was perhaps that same strategy that so many use especially with the quad: hype up the fact that your doing THE most difficult even though you really can’t dependable, the media feeds into it, the buzz gets around, then when you can’t the spin is “well she tried, just didn’t work here” vs the “oh, she has the easiest jump combo of all the top ladies ” that would probably get lower marks. Kinda like how irina was the 3/3 queen even though she often did none. What’s that expression: you can sleep till noon as long as you have the reputation for rising at dawn”?

 

[bardtoob]

Harding came closest but even then it only lasted about 6 months.

9 months ... US Nationals 1991 through Skate America 1991

 

[berthesghost]

9 months ... US Nationals 1991 through Skate America 1991

yes. iirc it was 4 3x at 3 events.

Just looked up midori’s record and it was 18 3x from 1988 to 1996! What a star! Plus I swear there were more like at 94 world pros.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I am not sure why there wasnt more controversy about Lenz's scoring at these Games than Fratianne not winning. IMO Fratianne's loss was easy to understand, she lost due to Poetzsch being better in figures, she beat Poetzsch in both the short and long, even though in the long they basically skated the same. I am not sure where there is any confusion from. Fratianne always lost to Poetzsch unless she bombed (she bombed at both 77 and 79 worlds) due to figures. It was simply Frank Caroll invented propoganda for their to be any so called "controversy" at all.

Instead the controversy should have been focusing on why the stunning Lenz did not get much higher scores in the short and long programs. Being weak in figures and with no triples she could never have medaled, but there should have been a raging controversy why she did not get much higher scores than she did.

Didn't Coach Carroll say Fratianne was better than Poetzsch at figures?? Lmao

 

[bardtoob]

Didn't Coach Carroll say Fratianne was better than Poetzsch at figures?? Lmao

No, he said one of Annett's figures was off axis during the 1980 Olympic Compulsory Figures.

He also said he trained Fratianne to be a winner in every segment of the competition; whether she won or not, she wasn't going to have any obvious weaknesses ... And Fratianne was consistently 3rd or 4th best in the world.

Let's not create a myth about Annett's figures. She was the best of the women of her time, but she was no Trixie Schuba, who could have beaten anybody in figures from any time.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Didn't Coach Carroll say Fratianne was better than Poetzsch at figures?? Lmao

Carroll was always a gem, especialy with his insane bias towards his own skaters. He was the Steve Nunno of figure skating.

 

[VGThuy]

I mean...do we know for sure that Fratianne wasn't better than Poetzsch at Figures at this particular competition? I'm asking in all sincerity as I don't want to just assume she wasn't without knowing anything about how each skater actually performed those figures and without video footage.

 

[WillyElliot]

Carroll was always a gem, especialy with his insane bias towards his own skaters. He was the Steve Nunno of figure skating.

Brilliant! I love it.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Carroll was always a gem, especialy with his insane bias towards his own skaters. He was the Steve Nunno of figure skating.

I need a aspirin just from reading that name...

 

[bardtoob]

Today, I have sympathy for Frank.

... But by all means, bitch about Evy Scotvold, since that's Sandy Lenz's coach, if not Jutta Mueller.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I am surprised we never heard much of Mueller after Germany unified. She was a proven champion maker for East Germany. I wonder if it was political or age related.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I mean...do we know for sure that Fratianne wasn't better than Poetzsch at Figures at this particular competition? I'm asking in all sincerity as I don't want to just assume she wasn't without knowing anything about how each skater actually performed those figures and without video footage.

We dont know, but there was not a single observer (of many) who implied Fratianne had better figures than Poetzsch at this event, except possibly Frank if he did. There were a couple who indicated Fratianne might have been unfairly scored in figures relative to Lurz which could have impacted the final results. However Sonia Bianchetti who was a high ISU ranking official at the time, a highly respected figure in the sport to this day, and IIRC and assistant referee for the ladies event and the referee for the mens event, and she has strongly indicated the figures scoring was spot on. She has also defended the final results of both the ladies and mens events at those Games, as Hoffmann vs Cousins was oft debated too. She believes both results were correct, as she sat through every phase of both. Both events were similar in that it was the stronger figures performer (Hoffmann, Poetzsch) vs the stronger free skater (Fratianne, Cousins) with the stronger figures performer winning out in one and the stronger free skater in the other, both in split ordinal decisions.

 

[Vagabond]

I mean...do we know for sure that Fratianne wasn't better than Poetzsch at Figures at this particular competition? I'm asking in all sincerity as I don't want to just assume she wasn't without knowing anything about how each skater actually performed those figures and without video footage.

For what it's worth, the West German judge had Pötzsch and Lurz tied for first in the Compulsories in Lake Placid, and the other eight judges marked Pötzsch in first. Most of those eight had Lurz second.

https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1980/FSK/womens-singles-compulsory-figures.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_1980_Winter_Olympics

Pötzsch also finished first in the Compulsories at every World Championship from 1977-80.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that Fratianne was not better than Pötzsch in the Compulsories at Lake Placid. If she had been, we would probably have heard Frank Carroll griping about that.

 

[bardtoob]

I am surprised we never heard much of Mueller after Germany unified. She was a proven champion maker for East Germany. I wonder if it was political or age related.

That happened a lot to those of high rank from East Germany.

 

[Maximillian]

I believe in one of Brennan's books there's a story about Linda's mother overhearing a judge in the ladies room in Lake Placid saying that she knew that one of Linda's figures had been better than Lurz' but she had to go with protocol or something...

 

[Maximillian]

That happened a lot to those of high rank from East Germany.

Yeah, my understanding was that under the unified German regime, a lot of the trainers/coaches from the GDR were essentially cast-off. Though, this might have had to do with not wanting to be associated with the systematic doping regime of the former East Germany. Trainers like Mueller might have been collateral damage.

 

[Frau Muller]

Wasn’t coach Carlo Fassi a big political factor of this competition, behind the scenes? He allegedly worked very hard with German-speaking judges and officials to sabotage the scoring of Linda, to give his skater Robin Cousins the edge in the earlier Men’s event (over Jan Hoffman...tit for tat). Carlo made good use of his German language skills.

On the matter of Frau Mueller, many unfortunate coincidences occurred to dampen her career: the reunification of Germany, at the exact time that figures were eliminated (ISU judging system changed), and her own troubles with eyesight. After Evelyn Grossman, then Witt’s brief return in 1994, Mueller only had child students, I think. She’ll be 90 later this year!

 

[antmanb]

Well, nobody was Mindori starting with the fact that to this day she’s still the only woman to have anything even approaching a consistent 3x. Harding came closest but even then it only lasted about 6 months.

Come on are you really putting Harding as more consistent on the triple axel than Asada?

 

[berthesghost]

Re: Bianchetti. Her opinion is just that, her opinion. No different than the infamous British judge’s option on Fadaev’s costume or the Italian judge’s opinion on the suitability of Shez as dance music.

I get that those who agree with her, see her very thin on substance or factual backup article as meaningful, but it really wasn’t and did nothing beyond stating her terse opinion while calling judge’s marks “ridiculous” and further promoting a sort of “lone gunman” conspiracy theory of its own: that not a single person so much as questioned the judging in LP until a young coach (“crazy” Frank) starting ranting lunatic conspiracy theories against two dominant famous star coaches. Yeah, sure, un huh. Her country man couldn’t possibly have rigged a competition and certainly not one she oversaw because that might mean she either didn’t do her job or was involved. Just like how the French had nothing at all to do with the pairs judging in SLC. I mean, it’s not like rumors have a life of their own and live on beyond denials

 

[berthesghost]

Come on are you really putting Harding as more consistent on the triple axel than Asada?

No!

 

[Rock2]

Thread drift alert: One of these days I want to do this with Sarajevo Men's SP, considering Hamilton's easy combo and inability to spin. And then layer in the long with only one difficult triple and 3 in total.

But this feels blasphemous, so I'll sit on it for a bit....

 

[savchenkoboss]

Re: Bianchetti. Her opinion is just that, her opinion. No different than the infamous British judge’s option on Fadaev’s costume or the Italian judge’s opinion on the suitability of Shez as dance music.

I get that those who agree with her, see her very thin on substance or factual backup article as meaningful, but it really wasn’t and did nothing beyond stating her terse opinion while calling judge’s marks “ridiculous” and further promoting a sort of “lone gunman” conspiracy theory of its own: that not a single person so much as questioned the judging in LP until a young coach (“crazy” Frank) starting ranting lunatic conspiracy theories against two dominant famous star coaches. Yeah, sure, un huh. Her country man couldn’t possibly have rigged a competition and certainly not one she oversaw because that might mean she either didn’t do her job or was involved. Just like how the French had nothing at all to do with the pairs judging in SLC. I mean, it’s not like rumors have a life of their own and live on beyond denials

It is true, she is just one opinion. However Frank Carroll is also just one opinion. And of the two she is more likely to be an atleast somewhat impartial source vs someone who still calls Linda by far his most favorite student ever (even over people like Michelle Kwan and Evan Lysacek who he has super close relationships with, still does with Michelle even after she left him, but even them still nothing like Linda), and admits she is like a daughter to him even to this day. Which I think is sweet and terrific they have that kind of a relationship, but it makes being unbiased literally impossible when it comes to anything relating to Linda or any of her close defeats.

So between the two I will take Sonia before Frank easily, if they are the only two loud sources on either side of the coin. Oh yeah and Linda's late Mom, an even less credible source for obvious reasons.

 

[eurodance2001]

An easier than planned combo and not even that well done followed by a very wonky and barely saved double axel and then a spin which traveled.. combined with an uninspired and nervous/tentative looking program.. Anett's placement was a gift as was the POINTS she obtained for it.. low 5's was too high for that effort.. and since points still mattered in the overall calculation of the total score, that is what made the difference..

 

[Vagabond]

Thread drift alert: One of these days I want to do this with Sarajevo Men's SP, considering Hamilton's easy combo and inability to spin. And then layer in the long with only one difficult triple and 3 in total.

Michelle Kwan in her prime would have finished ahead of Hamilton in that SP.

 

[berthesghost]

everybody knows Kwan’s 3z/2r would have beaten 2r/3t attempts by both Anett and Scott, but the real question is how would Med’s 3f/3t have placed her? Would she have won both the LP ladies event and the sarajevo men’s ogm, or would she have been buried in the SPs for having failed to complete combos including a 2r?

 

[gkelly]

Thread drift alert: One of these days I want to do this with Sarajevo Men's SP, considering Hamilton's easy combo and inability to spin. And then layer in the long with only one difficult triple and 3 in total.

But this feels blasphemous, so I'll sit on it for a bit....

Instead of going by gut feeling to second guess panels from another era, how about trying to score by ijs to see what you think of each element and component and then add up to get a rough idea of how you'd rank them. I say rough because of course level calls and other specific rules might not match well with what skaters we're doing at the time.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

For what it's worth, I am guessing that Sandy Lenz and Linda Fratianne had more substantial professional careers than either Dagmar Lurz or Annet Poetzsch.

 

[Vagabond]

Scott Hamilton Sarajevo SP
Michelle Kwan Nagano Olympic SP

Who wins?