The 1980 Ladies Olympic SP: Potzsch vs Lenz

[Vagabond]

everybody knows Kwan’s 3z/2r would have beaten 2r/3t attempts by both Anett and Scott, but the real question is how would Med’s 3f/3t have placed her? Would she have won both the LP ladies event and the sarajevo men’s ogm, or would she have been buried in the SPs for having failed to complete combos including a 2r?

Med would have been buried in the Compulsories.

ETA: Purple.

 

[Rock2]

Instead of going by gut feeling to second guess panels from another era, how about trying to score by ijs to see what you think of each element and component and then add up to get a rough idea of how you'd rank them. I say rough because of course level calls and other specific rules might not match well with what skaters we're doing at the time.

I believe the whole idea is to layer in some IJS thinking to bring some context to what's being done on the ice as the reason for the debate.

If I go into 6.0 mode there's no reason to have the discussion. "6.0" thinking gets you to what exactly happened.

In the case of Lenz, it's "you are #3 American, so you don't get a medal". No thread needed.

 

[bardtoob]

Scott Hamilton Lake Placid SP
Michelle Kwan Nagano Olympic SP

Who wins?

Hey, make your own ridiculous off season poll!

 

[bardtoob]

I believe the whole idea is to layer in some IJS thinking to bring some context to what's being done on the ice as the reason for the debate.

If I go into 6.0 mode there's no reason to have the discussion. "6.0" thinking gets you to what exactly happened.

In the case of Lenz, it's "you are #3 American, so you don't get a medal". No thread needed.

Or at least judge the programs as if figure skating resembles a sport

 

[Vagabond]

Hey, make your own ridiculous off season poll!

Done!

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/scott-hamilton-or-michelle-kwan-olympic-sp-who-wins.104175/

Who's the wise guy who voted for Pötzsch?

 

[bardtoob]

Done!

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/scott-hamilton-or-michelle-kwan-olympic-sp-who-wins.104175/

Who's the wise guy who voted for Pötzsch?

Frau Mueller?

 

[olympic]

The posts upthread regarding Fratianne winning in '77 and '79 when Poetzsch botched the LP are accurate. But, I still believe to this day that Fratianne wuz robbed at the '80 Olympics because Poetzsch was held up above Lurz and Lenz in the SP

 

[savchenkoboss]

The posts upthread regarding Fratianne winning in '77 and '79 when Poetzsch botched the LP are accurate. But, I still believe to this day that Fratianne wuz robbed at the '80 Olympics because Poetzsch was held up above Lurz and Lenz in the SP

I can agree the questionable part of the results are the short program BUT:

a)has it ever been calculated how the results turn out if Poetzsch is 6th in the short as she should have been.

b)the big problem is Caroll in his complaints about the event never talks about the short program, and instead focuses mostly on the figures judging. If he talked about the short program scoring more, his complaints might have more legitimacy rather than just looking like sour grapes to most people as they do now. Especialy as even if his points on the figures were valid, as you know hardly anyone got to see them, and as they were on par with the figures results usually seen of the Poetzsch, Lenz, Fratianne trio he cant seriously expect most people to believe him.

 

[berthesghost]

In 1980 Frank was an up and coming coach with a star skater who medaled and had a real shot to win. He opened his mouth, spoke truth to power, and then wasn't in that position ever again for almost two decades. By the time history repeats itself in Nagano, Frank's "don't say you were robbed, just accept the silver" advice to Kwan was really "if you ever want to work in this town again, bend over and say please sir may I have another" advice. He then continued on to the next 4 olys in that same position and became a "legend" like fassi and muller.

 

[eurodance2001]

I can agree the questionable part of the results are the short program BUT:

a)has it ever been calculated how the results turn out if Poetzsch is 6th in the short as she should have been.

b)the big problem is Caroll in his complaints about the event never talks about the short program, and instead focuses mostly on the figures judging. If he talked about the short program scoring more, his complaints might have more legitimacy rather than just looking like sour grapes to most people as they do now. Especialy as even if his points on the figures were valid, as you know hardly anyone got to see them, and as they were on par with the figures results usually seen of the Poetzsch, Lenz, Fratianne trio he cant seriously expect most people to believe him.

It doesn’t matter if she was sixth, what matters more is what were the scores given to her since they were then calculated by the 20% the SP was worth and resulted in a point total. So a better question is were the scores that she received fair considering her obvious mistakes and lower base score due to her combination which while it fulfilled the requirement, it was of lesser difficulty.

 

[olympic]

I can agree the questionable part of the results are the short program BUT:

a)has it ever been calculated how the results turn out if Poetzsch is 6th in the short as she should have been.

b)the big problem is Caroll in his complaints about the event never talks about the short program, and instead focuses mostly on the figures judging. If he talked about the short program scoring more, his complaints might have more legitimacy rather than just looking like sour grapes to most people as they do now. Especialy as even if his points on the figures were valid, as you know hardly anyone got to see them, and as they were on par with the figures results usually seen of the Poetzsch, Lenz, Fratianne trio he cant seriously expect most people to believe him.

Ooh. @floskate and I discussed this in a thread years ago. Some discussions never die

@floskate slotted Poetzsch into 5th and 6th place in the SP, using the scores received by Lurz and Lenz. IIRC, this model still put Poetzsch on top of the podium, all other things being equal.

I used a system where I dropped Poetzsch's points from each judge in the SP by -0.1, and increased Fratianne by +0.1. Fratianne was clean, nailed the hardest combo, huge axel, and every other element. The judges save one [ITA judge for artistry] gave her no 5.9s. I felt that was wrong and increased her scores by +0.1, which rewarded her a bigger raft of 5.9s. All that gave Fratianne the Gold. But, I realize that is just my opinion.

If we only could have a clearer view of the figures, there would be more evidence to make an argument either way. I also heard that Fratianne's mother complained to bystanders during the figures that one of Lurz's loops was flat where it should have been round, and still was 2nd, if that means anything

 

[savchenkoboss]

Fratianne was 1st in the short program by 7 or 8 of the 9 judges over Biellmann. I didnt see the exact scores she got but considering I didnt think her performance was that much better (if at all) than Biellmann's short I probably wouldnt change them.

Poetzsch's scores which I have seen are a little harder to tell. In a sense they seem a bit high, but on the other hand Trenary 10 years later had an equally weak short, including a double toe-double toe combo, and got slightly higher scores a full 10 years later. I know that isnt the same competition, but I dont think she was held up anymore than the typical big name would be in that situation. People like Lenz and Lurz were probably underscored in the short, more than Poetzsch was overscored.

 

[Maximillian]

I used a system where I dropped Poetzsch's points from each judge in the SP by -0.1, and increased Fratianne by +0.1. Fratianne was clean, nailed the hardest combo, huge axel, and every other element. The judges save one [ITA judge for artistry] gave her no 5.9s. I felt that was wrong and increased her scores by +0.1,

This is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge reach...exhausting in it's stretch.

 

[bardtoob]

Jan Hoffman, who was sold up a creek then bitterly sold Kerrigan up a creek, actually accumulated more points than Cousins, but still lost. This can happen when the ISU openly states the problem and the use the loophole before it is eliminated.

 

[bardtoob]

Is there footage of Claudia Kristofics-Binder in the SP? ... Hmmm ... A Fassi skater. He certainly could do a lot by agreeing to "not protest the marks", couldn't he?

I wonder if he ever told his skaters to leave out content became it would not improve their placement, but really wanted them to not win the portion of the competition and disrupt the standings on top?

- Watanabe of Japan
- Lisa Marie Allen of the US
- Claudia Kristofics-Binder of Austria

... All in the top 7 ... All very appealing free skaters ... All underperforming ... Especially considering Watanabe's and Biellmann's role in helping Linda to the 1979 World Championship ... That whole SP + LP in addition to the SP alone and LP alone rule was strange.

... I mean he did tell Kadavy to stop doing the 3F. What if Kadavy wedged herself between Trenary and Midori in the SP or LP and cost Trenary the World championship?

 

[Maximillian]

Is there footage of Claudia Kristofics-Binder in the SP? ... Hmmm ... A Fassi skater. He certainly could do a lot by agreeing to "not protest the marks", couldn't he?

I wonder if he ever told his skaters to leave out content became it would not improve their placement, but really wanted them to not win the portion of the competition and disrupt the standings on top?

- Watanabe of Japan
- Lisa Marie Allen of the US
- Claudia Kristofics-Binder of Austria

... All in the top 7 ... All very appealing free skaters ... All underperforming ... I mean he did tell Kadavy to stop doing the 3F. What if Kadavy wedged herself between Trenary and Midori in the SP or LP and cost Trenary the World championship?

Is this a joke post? There's quite a bit of misinformation here. Faasi did not coach Lisa Marie Allen at the 1980 Olympics, Barbara Roles did, as she had been doing for years. I belive if Faasi coached Allen at all it was the following season. Watanbe stepped out of the 2lp in the 2a/2lp combo in the SP, do you really think he told her to do that?

Also, Kadavy wasn't competing when Trenary won her World title. She last competed in '88, Trenardy didn't win worlds until 1990. Also when did he tell her to not include her 3loop, since she used it as her combo in the SP in Calgary in '88 as well as Nats that year and had it twice (and fell on one) in her LP. I cannot recall an event where she didn't use her 3loop, since it was basically her money triple.

 

[bardtoob]

Also when did he tell her to not include her 3loop, since she used it as her combo in the SP in Calgary in '88 as well as Nats that year and had it twice (and fell on one) in her LP. I cannot recall an event where she didn't use her 3loop, since it was basically her money triple.

He told her to stop doing the 3F, not the 3Lp.

She says it here at 21:20.

https://youtu.be/CIsGOt5MTEM

Thank you for pointing out Allen was not with Fassi.

 

[Maximillian]

He told her to stop doing the 3F, not the 3Lp.

She says it here at 21:20.

https://youtu.be/CIsGOt5MTEM

Thank you for pointing out Allen was not with Fassi.

I would suspect he told her not to do the flip because she couldn't do the five triples she was already attempting in competition. Ever. Trenary also had a triple loop, which she never did in competition. Not doing the flip had nothing to do with Cadavy's failures.

And still, she was already out of the sport when Trenary started challenging for World medals, so your suspicions about Faasi's 'machinations' seem to be incorrect.

 

[bardtoob]

And still, she was already out of the sport when Trenary started challenging for World medals, so your suspicions about Faasi's 'machinations' seem to be incorrect.

Maybe

... Back to Sandy Vs Annett ... and apparently "How messed up was that?"

 

[WillyElliot]

I would suspect he told her not to do the flip because she couldn't do the five triples she was already attempting in competition. Ever. Trenary also had a triple loop, which she never did in competition. Not doing the flip had nothing to do with Cadavy's failures.

And still, she was already out of the sport when Trenary started challenging for World medals, so your suspicions about Faasi's 'machinations' seem to be incorrect.

Yeah, I raised my eyebrows and rolled my eyes when I saw that part of her interview. The idea that Carlo was trying to hold back Caryn to advance Jill is ridiculous. Anyone back then would know that Caryn was Carlo's favorite and that he and Jill had a prickly relationship. Carlo probably didn't encourage her to add the flip because she never could land even her 'easy' jumps consistently. Caryn was a mental mess as a competitor.

 

[bardtoob]

https://youtu.be/nDrqP3yQD7k

The commentary at 1:20 is interesting.