Slate | The Once Unthinkable Revolution Coming to Figure Skating

[VGThuy]

It’s funny how creative this sport started out and how it inspired and encouraged the pioneers of the sport to push themselves to develop all the skills that are now codified and many more beyond that hasn’t been codified…and the fact that there was a “free skate” that was much closer to the literal definition of “free”…and now so many people want to keep it frozen and make every program have like a default template with the only difference being number of revolutions in the same jumps.

 

[On My Own]

I think a good chunk of the reason why skating "can't evolve" comes from the code of points. I do think if you simplify the spin and step requirements, you'll see a much freer interpretation from many skaters. But cramming those levels in makes dubious sense since they make the judging "more objective".

I do not, however, think the simplification should come from reducing jump/twist requirements or reducing the BV for quads. Instead, I'd like to see different combos incentivised more so we see more variety, and maybe penalise falls and other errors even more so that skaters go for jumps they can land properly.

I do sincerely think the biggest difference between a Michelle Kwan skate vs now isn't that she was doing 3T+3T at best, but rather that she wasn't spending 45 seconds - 1 minute on a "level 4" step sequence.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

It’s funny how creative this sport started out and how it inspired and encouraged the pioneers of the sport to push themselves to develop all the skills that are now codified and many more beyond that hasn’t been codified…and the fact that there was a “free skate” that was much closer to the literal definition of “free”…and now so many people want to keep it frozen and make every program have like a default template with the only difference being number of revolutions in the same jumps.

This! Personally, I think the pairs discipline (no matter the make up of the teams) would be much improved if the long program rules were changed to allow teams to focus on the elements they're good at. A pair that has weak SBS jumps and throws could do two twists, more lifts, more death spirals. A team that's bad at lifts could do more SBS jumps and more SBS spins, etc.

 

[Wyliefan]

and maybe penalise falls and other errors even more so that skaters go for jumps they can land properly.

Exactly how many double salchows would you like to see?

 

[On My Own]

Exactly how many double salchows would you like to see?

Wouldn't this then mean we're already at a stage where the Pairs teams can barely do SBS harder than 2S? So I wouldn't want to reduce the BV of twists or throws, since there's already a place where some teams can hope to catch up and exceed the others at.

 

[Frau Muller]

I'm all for this. This might also help lessen the power imbalances and abuse that plague this sport.

It's 2023. Yet, so many people here seem to be stuck in the past.

Absolutely. Stuck in the look (and music) that we’ve loved for 50+ years! Gimmicks - Do - Not- Work.

 

[VGThuy]

Define “gimmick”.

 

[coppertop1]

Define “gimmick”.

Anything in the 21st century

 

[On My Own]

Gimmicks - Do - Not- Work.

Daniil Gleikhengauz's choreography certainly worked though, didn't it?

 

[Frau Muller]

Daniil Gleikhengauz's choreography certainly worked though, didn't it?

Terrible! The worst.

 

[overedge]

Admittedly this was pre-Internet, so it's difficult to know how much outrage it generated. But one of the main reasons a short program was introduced in singles was to even the playing field for good freeskaters who weren’t so good at figures.

(don't @ me with the "nobody wanted to watch figures on TV" stuff, because that was untrue then and it's untrue now.)

The sport evolves, and it can evolve in ways that are more inclusive.

 

[MacMadame]

If two females want to compete in pairs, go ahead and let them, but we shouldn't have to change the sport to accommodate their needs or shortcomings. It's a slap in the face to every other pairs team in the world, regardless of their level.

I don't see why we can't have both.

I don't like this rush to "let's change the rules so two female pairs will be competitive" when we have no idea what these new pairs can and can't do. It seems both short-sighted and also a bit condescending.

At the same time, we may find that once we have a bunch of new combinations, we will want to change what we encourage and don't encourage as we are exposed to new elements, styles, etc.

Finally, there is always the possibility that we end up with different tracks and/or different events because we see cool things happening with non-traditional teams that we want to encourage but don't really match well with the more traditional teams. Kind of like how Theater on Ice is similar but different to Synchro.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Hector Giotopoulos Moore / ANL

He is a serious hottie, and a fantastic pair guy.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

He is a serious hottie, and a fantastic pair guy.

totally, I would like to send you a nice chocolate gift basket.

 

[Frau Muller]

totally, I would like to send you a nice chocolate gift basket.

Or MyPillow2.0 .

 

[ellenpuff]

(don't @ me with the "nobody wanted to watch figures on TV" stuff, because that was untrue then and it's untrue now.)

Now you're blatantly making things up. Very few people, outside of die-hard putists, wanted to watch figures in person, much less on television. If what you say is true, the networks would broadcast figures just as much as the free skating. Personality and fluff pieces were given much more airtime than figures, and rightfully so.

Do you have a position with US Figure Skating, by any chance? Because your takes here are congruent with how out of touch USFS markets the sport, accelerating skating's slide into extreme irrelevance.

 

[ellenpuff]

Gymnastics opened up itself to all sorts of changes to help competitors of more body types be competitive and the technical standard of the sport have never been so high.

As a gym fan, I can't think of ANY changes introduced that intended to help competitors with "different" body types.

Everyone is so eager to be the "MOST invlusive"—many times, like this one, it comes across as performative. So far we've had one possible mention of a female-female pairs team, and you all want to completely rewrite the sport to accommodate them.

Instead of tripping over ourselves in the names of inclusion and diversity, wouldn't the measured approach be to simply permit same gender pairs to perform at both domestic and international levels?

Who knows how many skaters are even interested in same gender pairs, anyways? Once teams start to form and compete, THEN we can look at potential rules changes or separate disciplines.

 

[overedge]

Now you're blatantly making things up. Very few people, outside of die-hard putists, wanted to watch figures in person, much less on television. If what you say is true, the networks would broadcast figures just as much as the free skating. Personality and fluff pieces were given much more airtime than figures, and rightfully so.

Do you have a position with US Figure Skating, by any chance? Because your takes here are congruent with how out of touch USFS markets the sport, accelerating skating's slide into extreme irrelevance.

I'm making things up? I guess I imagined the crowds at Worlds watching figures when figures were part of that competition.

Television never tried to make figures accessible or interesting, by showing a significant part of the competition or explaining what the judges were looking for when judging the tracings. All it usually showed were some people going around in circles on the ice from a distance, and then giving the results. And then the broadcasters claimed that no one wanted to watch figures.

No, I don't work for US Figure Skating. Even if I did, I would still say that characterizing ways to make skating more inclusive as "performative" and "tokenism" is way more out of touch than anything USFS is doing.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm making things up? I guess I imagined the crowds at Worlds watching figures when figures were part of that competition.

Not to mention the crowds that watched figures when the entire competition was held out of doors.

 

[sap5]

Strong and tall women exist in plenty of other sports!! If they are involved in skating when they are young, then they are pushed out of skating as soon as they grow because they don't fit the mold.

An anecdote - I had a classmate who was an incredibly tall and strong woman. She looked like a division I college athlete. I remember her talking about how she was pushed into basketball and volleyball when she was in high school because of her height, but she hated traditional team sports. She just wanted to dance, but was constantly told that she didn't have the right look. I am thinking of her, imagining what she might have been able to bring to the table as a lifting partner in a skating team.

What if she didn't want to be the lifting partner? I don't like the idea that just because a person is incredibly tall and strong that means they automatically have to be the lifting partner. Maybe they want to be lifted too?

 

[Coco]

What about a new discipline entirely where the focus is on perfect synchronization of jumps and spins? Lifts could be dance style or pairs style.

 

[Wyliefan]

What if she didn't want to be the lifting partner? I don't like the idea that just because a person is incredibly tall and strong that means they automatically have to be the lifting partner. Maybe they want to be lifted too?

Then she'd have to find someone even taller and stronger to lift her.

 

[sap5]

Then she'd have to find someone even taller and stronger to lift her.

Yes. I hope the changes encourage more body types into skating. There are plenty of tall and strong people that don't go into skating for whatever reason.

 

[VGThuy]

As a gym fan, I can't think of ANY changes introduced that intended to help competitors with "different" body types.

Everyone is so eager to be the "MOST invlusive"—many times, like this one, it comes across as performative. So far we've had one possible mention of a female-female pairs team, and you all want to completely rewrite the sport to accommodate them.

Instead of tripping over ourselves in the names of inclusion and diversity, wouldn't the measured approach be to simply permit same gender pairs to perform at both domestic and international levels?

Who knows how many skaters are even interested in same gender pairs, anyways? Once teams start to form and compete, THEN we can look at potential rules changes or separate disciplines.

Really? You haven’t seen the sport encourage a change from waify prepubescent athletes to one where one where post-pubescent women with more muscle mass and weight have been able to have careers that lasted longer? You haven’t seen the way the Dutch have been able to play with the code of points to make the floor finals without the hardest tumbling? You haven’t seen a huge emphasis on execution to where gymnasts can now score competitively with lower difficulty but higher execution scores? Outside of vault, women’s gymnastics provides athletes with many more tools to build up their D-scores. Way more. And the move as allowed competitors and their coaches to find healthier ways to train so that the athletes can compete for far longer than they had in the past, if they chose to do so, which has resulted in better conditioning and better technique and more potential to build technically-challenging routines.

And NCAA gymnastics has always done very well with spectators where there is even more freedom to create competitive routines.

 

[On My Own]

Television never tried to make figures accessible or interesting,

OK. But my question is, how many people used to watch figures in person vs the free skating? I'm sure many people watched figures, but to compare the interests, I think we'd need to look at the audiences in each segment. But you're right that we can't compare TV numbers without accounting for how accessible figures were made on broadcast.

I do think less focus on figures has allowed for the technical advancement of the sport though, or at least progress more quickly.

 

[tony]

I do think less focus on figures has allowed for the technical advancement of the sport though, or at least progress more quickly.

I don't necessarily think so. Figures were last seen at 1990 Worlds. The women since then have gone through waves of decent technical content with 5 triples, to top contenders only needing to do 3-4 triples in a free skate to be in medal contention, to now needing a 3+3 in the short program to likely even make the free skate, and those latter two points happened less than a decade apart long after figures were gone. Ito and Harding doing the 3A didn't get a mad rush of people attempting it. I think maybe only Angela Derochie attempted it in competition before Nelidina and Nakano had their moments at 2002 Skate America. Even in the mid-2000's when Kostner, Ando, and Arakawa were doing 3+3, it wasn't as if many other skaters were doing it let alone attempting it, either.

The IJS has required skaters to work on edges in a different way to achieve top levels in step sequences. The spins can't be in basic positions if they are going to get high levels and strong GOE. If anything, I think advancements in equipment (boots that aren't as brick-like) and the jump requirements to be competitive (for both men and women) are what is pushing everyone now. The most competitive skaters from the skating powerhouses aren't likely going to be satisfied with careers full of senior B internationals and then Nationals every season. They want the biggest events, and they are working on the big-ticket jumping elements from a young age.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

totally, I would like to send you a nice chocolate gift basket.

I just found out that HGM has an older brother who is a ballet dancer.

Davis Giotopoulos Moore: Dancing in Moscow

An interview with one of the first Australians to graduate from the Bolshoi Ballet Academy. In an interview with Boys Do Ballet, Ilya Kuznetsov said that he teaches everyone in his class because: “…

balletschooldropout.wordpress.com

 

[Sylvia]

Gabriella Papadakis shared a clip from her session with Madison Hubbell (swipe to the end of her post): https://www.instagram.com/p/Crc-HQGINAK/

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I just found out that HGM has an older brother who is a ballet dancer.

Davis Giotopoulos Moore: Dancing in Moscow

An interview with one of the first Australians to graduate from the Bolshoi Ballet Academy. In an interview with Boys Do Ballet, Ilya Kuznetsov said that he teaches everyone in his class because: “…

balletschooldropout.wordpress.com

wow, thank you for sharing. very cool. Wow a figure skater and a ballet dancer, their parents did everything right. Lol.

what’s even more interesting for me is that YouTube algorithm started feeding me ballets the last three days and I’ve been watching them like Baryshnikov and other male ballet dancers something I’ve never really watched before. Been watching this on YouTube the past few nights.

 

[overedge]

OK. But my question is, how many people used to watch figures in person vs the free skating? I'm sure many people watched figures, but to compare the interests, I think we'd need to look at the audiences in each segment. But you're right that we can't compare TV numbers without accounting for how accessible figures were made on broadcast.

I do think less focus on figures has allowed for the technical advancement of the sport though, or at least progress more quickly.

I disagree about the technical advancement. Yes, skaters are doing more difficult and complicated jumps, but they're doing them without the technique and control that they learned from figures. In my ideal world figures would still be part of the test system, even if they weren't part of the actual competition.