Skate Canada Changes Definition of Pairs/Ice Dance "Team" for Domestic Events to "Two Skaters"

carriecmu0503

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What I know as a VM fan is that a lot of lifting relies on proper technique from both partners, not brute force or strength of the lifting partner.
Okay. Than by this definition, we should soon see the 5 foot barely hundred pound skaters being able to lift the 6 foot tall 180-200 pound skaters overhead? I don’t think I’ll hold my breath.
 

sap5

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Okay. Than by this definition, we should soon see the 5 foot barely hundred pound skaters being able to lift the 6 foot tall 180-200 pound skaters overhead? I don’t think I’ll hold my breath.
No. By this definition you should be able to see a 5 foot barely hundred pound skater lift another 5 foot barely hundred pound skater. The more likely scenario, though, would be a slightly larger, slightly heavier skater lift a slightly shorter, slightly lighter skater, which was exactly the situation with VM.

ETA: I know dancers don’t do overhead lifts, but I have seen acrobats do it. So I do think it can be trained, but there may have to be some rule adjustments as well. I’m not familiar enough with pair lifting requirements to know what those changes might be.
 
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gkelly

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No. By this definition you should be able to see a 5 foot barely hundred pound skater lift another 5 foot barely hundred pound skater. The more likely scenario, though, would be a slightly larger, slightly heavier skater lift a slightly shorter, slightly lighter skater, which was exactly the situation with VM.

And they were a dance team who didn't do pair-style lifts.
 

carriecmu0503

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574
No. By this definition you should be able to see a 5 foot barely hundred pound skater lift another 5 foot barely hundred pound skater. The more likely scenario, though, would be a slightly larger, slightly heavier skater lift a slightly shorter, slightly lighter skater, which was exactly the situation with VM.

ETA: I know dancers don’t do overhead lifts, but I have seen acrobats do it. So I do think it can be trained, but there may have to be some rule adjustments as well. I’m not familiar enough with pair lifting requirements to know what those changes might be.
Virtue is female, Moir is male. There are drastic biological differences in strength between males and females that science has proved over and over again, so no, not "exactly the same situation" at all.
 

platniumangel

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I’m concerned about women lifting an equally sized partner — ice dance lifts are incredibly acrobatic now and require a lot of strength to get certain levels. That is why even equally sized male and female teams rarely have the woman lift the man. I’m just concerned about athletes pushing themselves beyond what is safe, and causing injuries to both partners.

I also feel the partners of the lifting female partners will open themselves up to the pressures of eating disorders to stay “small”

We need to look at this in all perspectives with regards to what is safe, and what is not. This is why I feel a different division should be created with a restriction on the level of lifts.

However, I don’t think we should take away from the existing discipline by restricting the level of lifts. There should be different categories.
 

carriecmu0503

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574
I’m concerned about women lifting an equally sized partner — ice dance lifts are incredibly acrobatic now and require a lot of strength to get certain levels. That is why even equally sized male and female teams rarely have the woman lift the man. I’m just concerned about athletes pushing themselves beyond what is safe, and causing injuries to both partners.

I also feel the partners of the lifting female partners will open themselves up to the pressures of eating disorders to stay “small”

We need to look at this in all perspectives with regards to what is safe, and what is not. This is why I feel a different division should be created with a restriction on the level of lifts.

However, I don’t think we should take away from the existing discipline by restricting the level of lifts. There should be different categories.
Other than Anissina and Peizerat with a really basic lift more than 20 years ago that would likely only count as a choreographic (not leveled) lift in today's system, what other dance teams have had the female lifting the male?
 

Aussie Willy

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I’m concerned about women lifting an equally sized partner — ice dance lifts are incredibly acrobatic now and require a lot of strength to get certain levels. That is why even equally sized male and female teams rarely have the woman lift the man. I’m just concerned about athletes pushing themselves beyond what is safe, and causing injuries to both partners.

I also feel the partners of the lifting female partners will open themselves up to the pressures of eating disorders to stay “small”

We need to look at this in all perspectives with regards to what is safe, and what is not. This is why I feel a different division should be created with a restriction on the level of lifts.

However, I don’t think we should take away from the existing discipline by restricting the level of lifts. There should be different categories.
This is probably a great opportunity to look at the sport generally to provide more chances for people of all genders to be involved. We need to think beyond what has been traditionally accepted. So maybe there could be new types of divisions with new elements. Safety has to be the priority. Apart from the lifts, there are still elements in pairs that don't rely on the strength of one partner over the other. But there could be opportunities to bring in elements that maybe haven't even been thought of yet.
 

miffy

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Other than Anissina and Peizerat with a really basic lift more than 20 years ago that would likely only count as a choreographic (not leveled) lift in today's system, what other dance teams have had the female lifting the male?
Sinead and John Kerr, but that was a while ago too, they did do some under CoP though.
 

Aussie Willy

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And everyone is still assuming only the tiny little girls get to skate. This sport has already thrown out women with other body types that could now potentially be included.
I had a coach a while ago complain to me about wanting avenues for their skaters because they had run out of competitive options. And basically blaming the system for not giving her skaters anything so she losts them as students. I didn't say it, but as a coach shouldn't you be working with your skaters on options other than competitions or testing?

Granted this is not the elite ranks, and I am all for providing opportunities to keep skaters being competitive participants (which is something that the introduction of solo dance will bring or even Theatre on Ice fulfills very nicely). But there is more to skating than just competition. Just skate because you enjoy it. :)
 

sap5

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I’m concerned about women lifting an equally sized partner — ice dance lifts are incredibly acrobatic now and require a lot of strength to get certain levels. That is why even equally sized male and female teams rarely have the woman lift the man. I’m just concerned about athletes pushing themselves beyond what is safe, and causing injuries to both partners.

I also feel the partners of the lifting female partners will open themselves up to the pressures of eating disorders to stay “small”

We need to look at this in all perspectives with regards to what is safe, and what is not. This is why I feel a different division should be created with a restriction on the level of lifts.

However, I don’t think we should take away from the existing discipline by restricting the level of lifts. There should be different categories.
Is that really the reason? Because I’ve felt traditional views of how ice dance should look have a lot to do with it as well.
 

sap5

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In any event, the focus isn't reverse lifts, but rather same-sex lifts.

ETA: out of curiousity, I checked out female base cheerleading and found a few examples of one woman lifting another overhead, so maybe that's another place people could go to learn technique.
 
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Rukia

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I feel like part of the problem is people are thinking of same sex couples with stereotypical body types instead of realizing there's a whole range of body types out there who may not have felt welcome in skating for various reasons. Why should we try to create problems with required elements for them when they haven't even been allowed to try yet? This could actually inject some creativity and create good changes within skating.
 

LeafOnTheWind

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I feel like part of the problem is people are thinking of same sex couples with stereotypical body types instead of realizing there's a whole range of body types out there who may not have felt welcome in skating for various reasons. Why should we try to create problems with required elements for them when they haven't even been allowed to try yet? This could actually inject some creativity and create good changes within skating.
Things like:

less pressure to stay with abusive partners just because it's a guy partner
less pressure to succumb to eating disorders because you still get to do what you love in competition

Just to name a couple
 

Andrea82

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:eek: Hurtado Diaz with no hands at all! (And the Browns too!) Faiella Scali’s lift was very scary to watch too, I’d managed to forget that one.

Failla fell a couple of times during that lift. At around 39:00 mark here
 

chameleonster

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I think there is too much focus on what people think of what stereotypical male and female skaters look like, when there's already a wide range of body types that could widen further with expanding the types of teams that can compete. Why all the focus on a hypothetical 5'0" woman lifting a hypothetical 6'0" man, instead of considering someone with the build of say Shoma Uno as the lifted partner, who is both short and very muscular? Not every male dance or pairs partner is naturally muscular, that's what the gym is for. Perhaps taller women with a more muscular build would have more incentive to stay in skating if there were viable career paths for them.

Seriously some of you are acting like you've never seen a tall woman before. Cis men are on average taller than cis women, but I know several women well over 6 feet. Where do you think the WNBA gets its players from?? On the flipside I know several men under 5'5", it's not a bizarre one in a million phenomenon. Male singles skaters already tend to be shorter than the average man, there are in fact several top competitive men who are similar in height and/or build to current top dance and even pair women. I have no doubt that there are plenty of short men with great skating skills and performance quality who don't have the jumps for singles, but aren't tall enough to have a viable career in dance or pairs under the current rules. And you already have top teams like Guignard/Fabbri who are very close in height and still winning medals anyway.

To just look at the current field and declare it impossible is already incorrect because there are already some male and female skaters who might be able take the follow and lead positions respectively, but also does not consider how many young talented skaters have been discouraged from continuing because they don't have the right body types. 5'8 is basically the max upper limit for women and they're often talked about like they're giantesses walking among us instead of a pretty normal height you see a lot of. Taller than the average woman to be sure, but not that tall. Perhaps if young women weren't looked at like they were lumbering behemoths past 5'6" they would be more likely to continue and we'd see more of them!
 

manhn

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I wonder if Weaver is considering doing a program with a female skater to demonstrate what a dance team could look like. Tessa and Kaitlyn would get a lot of press, but Kaitlyn and someone like Alexandra Paul might look good together?

ETA: or Kaitlyn and Shae-Lynn!
 

Aussie Willy

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Things like:

less pressure to stay with abusive partners just because it's a guy partner
less pressure to succumb to eating disorders because you still get to do what you love in competition

Just to name a couple
I really like these points.
 

chameleonster

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I'm coming back to this because I'm just so irritated by this discussion. Sui/Han are one of the all time greats and Han Cong is only 5'7", but somehow it's impossible for a team to find success with a tall woman as the lifting partner? A five foot woman is going to struggle to life a six foot man, but I don't think a five foot man is going to fare much better with a six foot woman. There's a lot of pressure on women, particularly taller women to maintain a lower weight and slimmer figure, and for women past 5'8" there's little point in trying at all. And again for men under 5'5" they're going to have a much harder time finding dance partners, and forget about pairs. Allowing for M/M or F/F teams, or even M/F teams where the woman is the lead and the man the follow will open so many opportunities for talented skaters who would otherwise have no chance to compete at the elite level, and imo it will greatly enhance the sport.
 
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On My Own

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The reason why tall women aren't talked about in the sport of singles and pairs skating, is because it's already hard for them to rotate triples with their height. Even if we reverse the gender roles in a pair, and even if we posit that a more muscular woman would be able to rotate triples better, we'd still need to see what will happen with our own eyes before we reach conclusions on whether it is fair or not, because a lot of the technical requirements of the current CoP very much did evolve around a Female/Male pairing.

I don't think we can say Han Cong was only 5'7'' without pointing out that Sui Wenjing was 4'11''. They weren't exactly even in terms of height.

Personally, I have no interest in watching same gender pairs compete in ISU competitions, at least not before it can be proved they'd all be on an equal footing. Same gender ice dance could be good, especially because a lot of the technical requirements can/should be jettisoned to make it more of an artistic endeavour IMO.
 

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