Save Women's Sport - the pearl clutching begins

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,650
Okay, so again: what is the actual data from actual sporting events showing that the inclusion of trans women in non-contact sports creates an unfair situation for cis women?
I have given links to World Rugby's workshop's site several times. You can listen to the summary or look at the slides for presentations (for and against) here.

The various research described there is not only on rugby but on the general advantages of athletes who have undergone male puberty.

I have tried to give the general zest but don't want to repeat myself unnecessarily. Please examine these documents. You will find answers to your questions there.
 

Pink Cats

Active Member
Messages
77
So there isn’t any actual data from athletic competition to support the assertion that trans women will invariably outperform cis women, or that controlling for genitals instead of size makes contact sports inherently safer for cis women?

But despite this lack of evidence, the threat … of something … for cis women is so great that the correct policy decision is to exclude an already marginalized group rather than err on the side of being inclusive, even though rules excluding trans women also have the potential to directly harm cis and intersex women?

Cool. Got it.

Best practice in a safety situation is to err on the side of caution. In this case more research into if the inherent physical advantage that going through puberty as male gives is mitigated by transitioning before allowing trans women to contact sports with cis women.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
Best practice in a safety situation is to err on the side of caution. In this case more research into if the inherent physical advantage that going through puberty as male gives is mitigated by transitioning before allowing trans women to contact sports with cis women.

I’m not going to argue about contact sports because while I think there should be a more nuanced approach than a blanket ban on all trans women, I recognize the concerns about physical build are different.

For non-contact sports, though, there is just no data from real life athletic events to support that allowing trans women to compete would create systemic unfairness for cis women. To err on the side of excluding a marginalized group in the absence of evidence seems fundamentally unfair to me.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
17,266
For non-contact sports, though, there is just no data from real life athletic events to support that allowing trans women to compete would create systemic unfairness for cis women. To err on the side of excluding a marginalized group in the absence of evidence seems fundamentally unfair to me.

This thread is full of evidence, but some refuse to see it :wall:. The various governing bodies are also making evidence-based decisions rooted in scientific fact.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
This thread is full of evidence, but some refuse to see it :wall:. The various governing bodies are also making evidence-based decisions rooted in scientific fact.

An actual pattern from athletic competition, not assertions based on body type. Where is the proof that including trans women has caused systemic harm to cis women in non-contact sports? I’m not seeing it because no one has provided it.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,650
An actual pattern from athletic competition, not assertions based on body type. Where is the proof that including trans women has caused systemic harm to cis women in non-contact sports? I’m not seeing it because no one has provided it.
Have you read what I have provided? ;)
It's not "body type". It is sex.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
Have you read what I have provided? ;)
It's not "body type". It is sex.

That’s not what I asked. What is the evidence that including trans women in athletic competition for non-contact sports causes systemic harm for cis women?

“Susie is sad because one of the women who can swim faster than her happens to be trans” is not systemic harm. Something like “trans women represent two percent of competitive swimmers but get ten percent of college scholarships” might be worth a conversation. The latter type of data doesn’t exist, to my knowledge, and no one seems interested in sharing if it does.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
Messages
17,671
In sports where athletes don't even have incidental contact with one another, there can be health risks created when we see athletes try to keep up with / compete with athletes who have a significant advantage through doping or age falsification.

It is frustrating to watch both sides of this debate ignore the strong arguments of their opponents.

That said, I find it near impossible to freely debate these issues, until trans people are safe from violence and harassment to the same degree that cis people are. While we are at it, life should be safer and more fair for cis women, too! I have close friends with trans kids and every day is an effing minefield.

I really hate that this sports issue is being used to allow hateful anti-trans people a Trojan horse of sorts to get their hateful anti-trans sentiment into society.

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not referring to anyone in this thread with that last comment.
 
Last edited:

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
49,233
We do have the data showing the differences in performance in various sports between men and women and the data showing that the physical performance of trans women reduces only marginally when they reduce testosterone. We have the conclusions reached by scientists that male puberty is the main source of physical advantages in sports.
The data on how these changes that can be detected in a lab translate to real-life performance is mixed. Taking hormones to lower testosterone levels does cause changes in the trans body including lowering bone density and muscle mass while increasing fat deposits. Trans women who are athletes report that, as they transition medically, they have lower performance levels because of this. The question is then how much lower on average and is it more than other physical advantages in sport that we readily accept.

Because athletic performance is complicated, studies that only show differences in the lab or when isolating one aspect of performance cannot tell us much about what those differences mean in real-life situations. They can only give us ideas of what to study when looking at real-life performance.

There are way too many studies out there showing that this or that gives athletes an edge based on flawed design methodology or differences that appear in the lab but don't translate to real-life performance in all areas of sport, not just those about trans athletes. This is an area (like nutrition) where there is a lot of junk science.

:rofl: Literally hilarious.
That was literally your argument.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,650
That’s not what I asked. What is the evidence that including trans women in athletic competition for non-contact sports causes systemic harm for cis women?

As I have already said, the concerns in non-contact sports are related to fairness.

If a competition isn't fair, this is unfair to the athletes as well as all the officials trying to keep it fair. This is the harm of unfair competition.

It isn't fair for trans women to compete in the women's category, because of all the scientific reasons that have already been enumerated here and more.

If you read the evidence, you will see it.

If you need to ask the same question again, please feel free to read this answer from the beginning. There isn't any other way in which I can express this.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,650
That was literally your argument.
My argument was that science can predict the consequences of physical events without them actually happening. You don't want a biological male boxer to punch a female boxer's head at full strength because the difference in power and anatomy is so huge.

From there to claiming that this means any biological female in any sport can die if she competes with a trans athlete is a bit of a stretch.
 

Flake99

Member
Messages
22
The other is that when someone accuses you of tone policing or moving the goalposts it means they have no substantive response to what you’ve just said.
Yes, it's clear from the posts I've made in this thread that I can't deal with substance. I'm a very uneducated, extremist, radical who's just regurgitating ultra-left wing talking points I got from reading the large print edition of Judith Butler 4 Dummies.

You are the one who has repeatedly refused to deal with substantive arguments. You called my very measured rhetoric "fiery." You questioned my identity. You suddenly decided your position was only about cis radicals and made the classic "sorry if anyone was offended because they misinterpreted my position" non-apology after calling someone "brave" for posting TERF talking points from the Daily Mail, bragging about being doxxed, and giving likes to posts filled with literal hate speech.

In case that was too fiery, I'm going to leave (for good) this thread and forum by offering an interview with Megan Rapinoe that isn't going to change anyone's minds but it would be cool if anyone who wants to read it anyway.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
As I have already said, the concerns in non-contact sports are related to fairness.

No matter how many times you say that, unless you can point to a pattern of unfair outcomes for cis women when they compete against trans women, you don’t have evidence that being inclusive of trans women is inherently unfair to cis women.

Trans women have been competing against cis women in various sports for a long time. Cis women still have ample opportunities to play and win. You’re not making a scientific prediction if you’re ignoring what has already happened in the real world, and insist that a different thing is going to happen instead.

You have an opinion. That’s all this is.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,444
But the original point someone made is that trans skaters reading this thread might not feel welcome or supported as competitive athletes in figure skating.
I think it's been generally accepted that skaters shouldn't be reading FSU? Or at least, that nobody is expected to temper their posts based on the possibility that skaters will be reading.

I can't speak for others, but my sense is that pretty much everyone here would like to see skating become more inclusive and welcoming to LGBTQ+ athletes, and the discussion here has been about other sports.

Anyway, at this point I am not sure this thread serves any purpose as the same points are being repeated back and forth and the discussion is upsetting different people for different reasons.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
33,031
As has been pointed out several times, there are very few trans women competing at elite levels, so I would imagine it's hard to have sufficient data to prove whether they do or don't have an advantage over cisgender women. The punching strength data are interesting, but boxers don't just stand still in the ring and punch each other. They move around a lot - which might favour a smaller, faster athlete - and a punch is only effective if it lands in the right place on the other boxer. So I am not sure that the punching data are reliable enough to say that a trans woman boxer would have an inherent advantage over a cisgender woman boxer.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
I think it's been generally accepted that skaters shouldn't be reading FSU? Or at least, that nobody is expected to temper their posts based on the possibility that skaters will be reading.

I agree with you that no one should be obligated to write for an audience of skaters on a fan forum. There is some overlap between skaters and fans, though - I’m sure people active in the skating world are here. It wasn’t the famous skaters that I had in mind.

Elite skaters’ parents used to be all over the forums, but who knows if that’s still true in the age of social media.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
49,233
As has been pointed out several times, there are very few trans women competing at elite levels, so I would imagine it's hard to have sufficient data to prove whether they do or don't have an advantage over cisgender women. The punching strength data are interesting, but boxers don't just stand still in the ring and punch each other. They move around a lot - which might favour a smaller, faster athlete - and a punch is only effective if it lands in the right place on the other boxer. So I am not sure that the punching data are reliable enough to say that a trans woman boxer would have an inherent advantage over a cisgender woman boxer.
This is exactly what I was talking about with how isolated data often doesn't translate to what is happening in the real world. A good example is some data on endurance athletes that claimed to show that consuming calories with a certain protein-to-carb ratio within a certain "window of opportunity" leads to better muscle recovery. It turned out that this conclusion was a result of how the various studies were constructed and there is actually no special window. These types of research problems are all over sports research.

IMO, if letting trans women compete with cis women was inherently unfair, we would see a lot more instances where all the trans women in a certain sport were winning by large margins. We don't see that and one trans swimmer in one event (500m) doesn't negate that.

Elite skaters’ parents used to be all over the forums, but who knows if that’s still true in the age of social media.
There are definitely elite skaters' parents on FSU. Maybe not "all over" but they are here. They mostly lurk but not always.

I just want people to realize we are talking about real people. This is not an abstract discussion for many. If you are saying things here that you would never say to a trans woman's face, maybe you should rethink how you are communicating.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,650
No matter how many times you say that, unless you can point to a pattern of unfair outcomes for cis women when they compete against trans women, you don’t have evidence that being inclusive of trans women is inherently unfair to cis women.
How can you "point to a pattern of unfair outcomes" for any kind of unfairness? For that, you have to be able to calculate where every particular athlete would have ended up if she hadn't gone through male puberty. Where would she end up if you took away a third of her muscle mass or if she didn't have 90% more upper body strength etc. Performance science makes attempts at these calculations for one or two variables but when practically the whole body has been affected by male puberty?

The only thing that is scientifically proven - unanimously - is that male puberty enhances athletic performance in many ways. Once that is proven, any result that an athlete having undergone male puberty achieves is unfair to anyone below her in the women's category. We don't have to wait for the next star to arrive to realise this.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
There are definitely elite skaters' parents on FSU. Maybe not "all over" but they are here. They mostly lurk but not always.

I’m not surprised. I took a very long hiatus from skating forums, but I can’t imagine things changed that much.

People can say whatever they want within the forum rules, but I’d personally never say anything about a skater anywhere online unless I’d be prepared to respond to a DM from their mom about it.

I just want people to realize we are talking about real people. This is not an abstract discussion for many. If you are saying things here that you would never say to a trans woman's face, maybe you should rethink how you are communicating.

This is true also. Even if we don’t care what the skating moms think, we should be aware that there’s a lot of diversity in the fan community. I’m not sure how much that would change the conversation here - unfortunately I’ve seen people say much worse things to trans women’s faces than anything in this thread. But in general, here and in real life - if I don’t know whether a member of a community is present for a conversation, I assume that they are.
 

Pink Cats

Active Member
Messages
77
That’s not what I asked. What is the evidence that including trans women in athletic competition for non-contact sports causes systemic harm for cis women?

“Susie is sad because one of the women who can swim faster than her happens to be trans” is not systemic harm. Something like “trans women represent two percent of competitive swimmers but get ten percent of college scholarships” might be worth a conversation. The latter type of data doesn’t exist, to my knowledge, and no one seems interested in sharing if it does.

What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports

Since you will only accept "real world" incidents

Reka Gyorgy, a 2016 Olympian and a swimmer at Virginia Tech, offered a response of sort. She placed 17th in the preliminaries for the 500-yard freestyle in the N.C.A.A. championships — a slot short of making the finals. She wrote an open letter, affirming her respect for Ms. Thomas’s work ethic.
She was less forgiving of the N.C.A.A.
“This was my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated,” she wrote. “It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the N.C.A.A.’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete.”
That decision prevented her from qualifying for All-America honors.

Further

Title IX and the Fight for Equality
Some trans activists are challenging aspects of Title IX, specifically its implicit acknowledgment of biological difference. And supporters, not least the Biden administration, say transgender girls should be permitted on girls’ sports teams. They have pushed for a federal Equality Act, which would prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in housing, education, employment and credit.
It potentially places biology and gender identity on the same footing in sport. Dr. Doriane Lambelet Coleman, a Duke University law professor and former top track runner, supports legal protections for transgender people but foresees havoc in the arena of sports. The legal rationale for keeping women’s sports sex-segregated would fall away. “We are bringing a male body into a female sport,” Dr. Coleman said. “Once you cross that line, there’s no more rationale for women’s sport.”
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
508
What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports

Since you will only accept "real world" incidents

I’m familiar with Lia Thomas and I read that article when it was published. One athlete’s success doesn’t constitute a pattern, and we‘ve had years of trans women competing in women’s sports.

These are differences of opinion. I don’t think it’s an apocalypse if one (1) trans woman wins some competitions while cis women win literally everything else. Others disagree. But it’s unreasonable for anyone to pretend that “science” proves anything here. We have different perspectives on how inclusivity should apply to trans women. That’s all.
 

barbk

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,506
Related: I cannot help but wonder why are so many people being born in the wrong body. Scientists and the medical community need to check the water or something.


I am going to let you have a few minutes to sit back and think why this is so offensive.

I don't find this offensive. There is ample evidence that environmental factors are triggering endocrine disruptions and development. In the creek that runs behind my house--the creek that supplies drinking water to many people--biologists consistently find fish that change sex or are intersex. Here is a research paper where other scientists evaluated historical fish samples and did not find evidence of such change: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29203388/

There are other data showing male sperm counts declining substantially. https://theconversation.com/male-fe...environmental-toxins-could-be-a-reason-163795. Fertility rates also seem to be declining.

I could go on...but it is very clear that environmental factors are affecting humans in myriad ways. Why wouldn't we want to investigate and understand these influences? The argument against that seems to be similar to the argument some deaf folks make against cochlear implants as being anti-deaf culture. Well, as a deaf person with inherited deafness, I am damn glad to have my hearing aids and would be even happier to see gene therapy that would prevent this inherited deafness in my descendants. YMMV.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,703
I don't find this offensive. There is ample evidence that environmental factors are triggering endocrine disruptions and development. In the creek that runs behind my house--the creek that supplies drinking water to many people--biologists consistently find fish that change sex or are intersex. Here is a research paper where other scientists evaluated historical fish samples and did not find evidence of such change: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29203388/

There are other data showing male sperm counts declining substantially. https://theconversation.com/male-fe...environmental-toxins-could-be-a-reason-163795. Fertility rates also seem to be declining.

I could go on...but it is very clear that environmental factors are affecting humans in myriad ways. Why wouldn't we want to investigate and understand these influences?
The scientists have known about hormone copycat chemicals in the water at least since I worked for an enviro org in the mid ‘90s. They should continue to research the impact.

Meanwhile: https://twitter.com/fvhtweets/status/1539938861442338818?s=21&t=gI2UWJCPWVqNzkl5mbUYZQ
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
49,233
What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports

Since you will only accept "real world" incidents
So we have one elite swimmer and 2 or 3 high school track athletes who win things. But also sometimes lose.

Yes, women's sports are dead. (sarcasm)

I will say, while most of the anti-trans messages seem to have missed the mark when it comes to the general public, the message that having trans women in women's sports is inherently unfair has definitely taken hold. There is a link to an article posted on FSU somewhere (maybe even in this thread) where moderate voters are interviewed about their views on various subjects including trans people. Here are some excerpts:
Some states have been having debates about transgender teens and adults participating in sports or receiving counseling or hormone therapy — again, when they’re teenagers or adults. What comes to mind when you hear this debate?

It’s a person’s experience. No one has the right to legislate how they feel, what gender they feel or what they do to affirm that gender. Now I don’t think having trans women compete against women — I mean, it’s science. They have an unfair advantage. But as far as legislating what they could do to affirm their gender as a teenager or adult, they just need to mind their own business.
Do you think transgender people should be treated as the gender they say they are?

Absolutely. I mean, why not? Just help me out in understanding what that is, so that I can properly work with you on what you need from me.

Yeah, I agree. They should be whatever gender they say they are. And people need to know how to use pronouns correctly. But, yeah, they should have all the rights that we all have.
...should trans girls in high school be allowed to compete on girls’ sports teams? How do you see that?

I think that they deserve compassion and respect and understanding, but I don’t know how to offer it in that instance.

I do identify as a transgender person, and I would not ever enter a competition as a woman. I was born biologically male, and that would give me an unfair advantage. I don’t want to down-talk or talk against ones that are competing in women’s sports. I just — they are dominating them, and I think it is very unfair to the women that have been in these sports for all of their lives. It’s unfair, and if I were a biological woman, I would be pissed.
What about teenagers who say they’re trans? Should they be allowed to get puberty blockers or hormone therapy and counseling on transition? There is a difference of opinion among some political leaders on this.

Absolutely, absolutely. It is up to each individual. Politicians should just stay out of it. I mean, as long as I’m not hurting anybody, it is up to me as an individual.

It should be up to the individual to make that decision. But if the legal guardian is against the child and the child wants to have the therapy, there needs to be something in place that allows the child to seek legal autonomy in those situations, because obviously that family home life isn’t necessarily the best one for them.

I think the only thing I would mention is that if there are situations where those decisions cannot be reversed, that’s a complicated aspect for someone who’s not yet 18. So I think that that’s a tough challenge because all of us, our thinking about what we want to do can change over a period of time.
So the average, middle-of-the-road person has no problems with respecting people's pronouns, doesn't think that they are being asked to redefine their entire concept of gender and who they are, and thinks kids who identify as transgender should get puberty blockers maybe even if their parents aren't supportive. But does think that trans girls are dominating sport (they aren't) and that "it's just science" (it isn't)

You can read the entire article here if interested -- there is lots more about guns and abortion and stuff.

 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
49,233
Let’s name things that are a threat to women’s sport. I’ll go first:

Lack of funding
Lack of media coverage

Now ask yourself what the groups campaigning against transgender people participating in sport are actually doing about the above.
I'll add a third: a culture that discourages women from competing in sports.

The answer to your question is the same for that one.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information