Russian figure skating news & updates in 2022

[Trillian]

So you can kid yourself that weight doesn’t matter, but that’s not quite true, is it!

I never said that it doesn’t matter, I said it doesn’t matter the way you think it does. Thinner is not always better, and people like you who promote that rhetoric are actively harming kids in the sport by doing so.

Or are you so deluded that you really can’t see the obvious?

You’re equating figure skaters’ skill levels entirely with how many times they can rotate in the air, but I’m the deluded one?

 

[hanca]

I never said that it doesn’t matter, I said it doesn’t matter the way you think it does. Thinner is not always better, and people like you who promote that rhetoric are actively harming kids in the sport by doing so.
You’re equating figure skaters’ skill levels entirely with how many times they can rotate in the air, but I’m the deluded one?

You are definitely the deluded one, if you think that it won’t make any difference to the skaters knees and hips, if they weigh more.

 

[Spikefan]

You are definitely the deluded one, if you think that it won’t make any difference to the skaters knees and hips, if they weigh more.

Being underweight or overweight leads to bone issues. In skating there is no one that meets the overweight criteria but plenty that meet underweight.

 

[Trillian]

You are definitely the deluded one, if you think that it won’t make any difference to the skaters knees and hips, if they weigh more.

If thinner is always better, please cite the scientific studies that support your assertion that malnourished teenagers who eke out triples and quads with atrocious technique have excellent long-term health outcomes compared to other athletes who compete in figure skating.

Weight can be a factor in figure skating in a lot of different ways, but if athletes can’t maintain a healthy diet and perform a particular skill at the same time, they shouldn’t be doing that skill. And there are many aspects of skating that malnourished skaters don’t perform as well as healthy ones. (Some of those are non-jump elements, so I doubt you’ve heard of them.)

You’re arguing that being thinner is always better, under all circumstances. You’re also arguing that it’s acceptable for coaches to encourage athletes to lose weight without knowing anything about the athlete’s health or current nutritional situation. Both of those arguments are wrong and you’re doing real harm by amplifying them.

 

[Bigbird]

This is just the culture. Girls are expected to look as emaciated as EK or VS, especially as ice dancers. Nothing they can do about it. EK commented in one of her recent interviews that she'll never have a normal relationship with food. Some girls leave the sport for the sake of their complete health. Its just an extreme discipline.Their specialists know no other way.

 

[barbk]

This is just the culture. Girls are expected to look as emaciated as EK or VS, especially as ice dancers. Nothing they can do about it. EK commented in one of her recent interviews that she'll never have a normal relationship with food. Some girls leave the sport for the sake of their complete health. Its just an extreme discipline.Their specialists know no other way.

I am gratified to see gymnasts of many different body types becoming successful and acclaimed. I hope we get to that point in skating, too.

 

[Bigbird]

I am gratified to see gymnasts of many different body types becoming successful and acclaimed. I hope we get to that point in skating, too.

Good on them to find that balance.

 

[PRlady]

So now for the first time I’m seeing rink culture up close twice a week. Pretty much all the children and teenagers in the more advanced classes are medium to thin. That may be because the rink is in a heavily Asian neighborhood and the body type runs small, but the other kids are also on the thin side. A couple of middle-aged coaches are mesomorphic. A few of the adult beginners are heavy, most are also thin to medium.

It might be that anyone familiar enough with skating to take lessons or send their kids for lessons have absorbed that it’s a sport for small people. Maybe the larger kids are taking hockey lessons at another time. But I think the culture of thinness in the sport is so entrenched that we are literally never going to see a star ice dancer the size I was after age 30 - 5’6” and 135 pounds. That’s a perfectly normal and healthy weight for an adult female but obese by skating standards.

 

[hanca]

If thinner is always better, please cite the scientific studies that support your assertion that malnourished teenagers who eke out triples and quads with atrocious technique have excellent long-term health outcomes compared to other athletes who compete in figure skating.

Weight can be a factor in figure skating in a lot of different ways, but if athletes can’t maintain a healthy diet and perform a particular skill at the same time, they shouldn’t be doing that skill. And there are many aspects of skating that malnourished skaters don’t perform as well as healthy ones. (Some of those are non-jump elements, so I doubt you’ve heard of them.)

You’re arguing that being thinner is always better, under all circumstances. You’re also arguing that it’s acceptable for coaches to encourage athletes to lose weight without knowing anything about the athlete’s health or current nutritional situation. Both of those arguments are wrong and you’re doing real harm by amplifying them.

I never claimed that the ideal is a malnourished skater. That’s your thing to push everything into extreme. All I am saying is that it is ridiculous to pretend that weight doesn’t matter, because any extra weight has health implications for the skaters knees and hips. I am definitely not arguing that the thinner the better under all circumstances. Please don’t put words into my mouth that I didn’t say. But it may be a good idea to speak to any doctor who is fixing the skaters knees and hips and then you may become aware that the weight actually is an important issue for the skaters. I would know, I have had two knee surgeries on my left knee, one surgery on my right knee and one surgery on my left hip. And I have only been an adult skater, not an elite skater.

 

[On My Own]

 

[Vagabond]

We are literally never going to see a star ice dancer the size I was after age 30 - 5’6” and 135 pounds. That’s a perfectly normal and healthy weight for an adult female but obese by skating standards.

Jean-Luc Baker is about that size.

 

[Trillian]

All I am saying is that it is ridiculous to pretend that weight doesn’t matter, because any extra weight has health implications for the skaters knees and hips. I am definitely not arguing that the thinner the better under all circumstances. Please don’t put words into my mouth that I didn’t say.

You absolutely did say that. You named specific skaters in a previous post and claimed that they weren’t jumping as well as they have in the past because of “the extra weight.” You don’t know all the various factors that have contributed to what jumps these girls can and cannot do, and you don’t know anything about their health that makes you qualified in any way to comment on whether whatever weight they’re carrying right now is “extra.” It’s harmful to claim that weight gain is a problem for a skater when you don’t have any legitimate basis for making that claim, because even if the skaters you named don’t read your comments, other impressionable kids might.

 

[Bouffantrex]

Jean-Luc Baker is about that size.

Please refrain from dragging Jean-Luc Baker's good name into this relentlessly circular discussion.

 

[cholla]

To me, it seems less harmful if coaches make such comments, as opposed this being so ingrained in the culture than anyone makes such comments like in France.

Enough with this BS! My "experience" of French culture may be different from your colleague's but I have a serious advantage over him/her, I AM French, and although I hold another citizenship and I've lived in several different countries, I've been residing in France full time for the past 26 years!!! I dare thinking that it gives me a better view about what is acceptable or not in French society than someone who spent 1 single year in the country. Whether it's in Paris or in Bumf*ck (Trifouillis les Oies en français) it is NOT ACCEPTABLE AT ALL to make remarks about people's weight, about what they eat or to tell them to go on a diet. The morons who try, and they aren't many, are told off. As someone who was overweight because of medical treatment for 16 years, I am in the right place to know all about "grossophobie" (fatphobia). In these 16 years, the only person who made a remark about my physical appearance did it because she knew I was a former competitive athlete. She just said "I didn't look very fit". And she was British. I was never ever openly criticized for my weight and had I been, I would have (figuratively) chopped the moron's head (and not figuratively, this WAS once part of French "culture", ask Louis the 16th ) and nobody would have been surprised or shocked to see me slaughter the feckwit because it is NOT acceptable to comment on people's weight in this country. Those who do are told off. Period. And I don't give a flying fart about some Youtubers as it's common knowledge that some people hiding behind a screen feel entitled to say things they would never ever utter off line. Building an opinion of an entire culture upon the BS they spout online is beyond stupid. And all this doesn't mean I think only Russians find normal to criticize people's physical traits, I have seen it considered normal in many other countries.

That being said, it is medically true that weight is a major factor for figure skaters when they jump. It's not 4 times their weight they withstand when landing but 100 times on some jumps like quads. I don't think Malinin would land a quad Axel if he was built like Hulk. The best jumpers are usually short (low gravity center) and light. But it doesn't mean coaches have to starve their trainees to make them succeed. Proper physical training is the key thing. I talked about this with Kevin Aymoz last Monday. And of Zhulin's comments. And then we ate waffles Kevin is lucky enough to have a "built in cauldron", a super powerful metabolism so he doesn't have to watch what he eats all the time. But he knows some of his contenders have to be careful because + 1 kg and they can no longer land a quad. But it doesn't mean it's okay to call them fat cows or to weigh them 3 times a day. Anyway Zhulin's trainees do not jump and he should know better than babbling BS about ice dancers' weight. He has an exemple right under his nose: Katsalapov destroyed his lumbars and Sinitsina has always been very slim. So he'll worry about Baker's vertebras when he gets a few more points to his IQ. It's unfortunately not going to happen any time soon. One of my best friends trained under Zhulin for some years and he got used to be lambasted about his weight. And it also happened in the US. When he trained under... Krylova. I'm not saying and I will never say that Russians are morally inferior to the rest of the world. Or that any country is superior for the matter (that's something that drives me up the wall in the US) Russians are known to be blunt and it's not something I dislike. I'm a rude Euro myself after all. Still, Zhulin has no business discussing Hawayek's weight, especially not in this terms. It may be OK in Russia and other countries but it's quite normal for people from countries where it's NOT OK to react negatively.

End of the massive essay Aftershocks'style

 

[hanca]

You absolutely did say that. You named specific skaters in a previous post and claimed that they weren’t jumping as well as they have in the past because of “the extra weight.” You don’t know all the various factors that have contributed to what jumps these girls can and cannot do, and you don’t know anything about their health that makes you qualified in any way to comment on whether whatever weight they’re carrying right now is “extra.” It’s harmful to claim that weight gain is a problem for a skater when you don’t have any legitimate basis for making that claim, because even if the skaters you named don’t read your comments, other impressionable kids might.

No, I did not say that. You may have a problem with comprehension, but I definitely did not say that the malnourished skeleton thin skater would skate better. Of course I gave an example of Trusova and Valieva ten months ago, but neither of them looked malnourished or skeleton thin. Trusova had a lovely, muscley figure. She did not look extremely thin. And Valieva looked lean but definitely not skeleton thin. It seems that this was their optimal weight for this sport - it allowed them to do the harder jumps without increasing their risk for knee and hip injures. Now they are heavier, they are still attempting to do those jumps and their risk to their joints increased. Do you really not understand what the landings do to their knees and hips? What the heck is your problem that you need to push everything into extreme?

 

[On My Own]

@hanca if you meant to say that Valieva and Trusova simply looked unprepared here, then you should have said so.

Again, there's a difference between coaches airing this out on an international platform, vs them telling their skaters they need to shape up in private. What exactly is Zhulin gaining by telling news reporters someone is fat?

 

[hanca]

I am absolutely against coaches airing their opinions about skaters’ weight to media and especially not skaters they are not involved with. As I said, I am not making any excuses for unprofessional behaviour. What Zhulin is doing is pathetic, but then again, he never had any filter at all. He was badmouthing Ilynikh even three years after Ilynikh/Katsalapov left him. Three years!
At the same time, I am not blaming coaches for thinking what they are thinking about the skaters weight or discussing it with their skaters, because in this sport weight does matter. It is hash, but the impact on skaters joints is really huge, and that isn’t only about the quads and triple axel; doing any triples is causing injuries to knees and hips too. The sad reality is that no elite sport is healthy, and if the impact on the skaters joints can be reduced by staying at lower weight without being malnourished and skeleton thin, then I am not blaming them for doing that. Like everything in life, this is about the balance between keeping the weight lower but not into such exteme that would hinder their skating. And taking the weight too low/skeleton thin would hinder the skating.

 

[On My Own]

At the same time, I am not blaming coaches for thinking what they are thinking about the skaters weight or discussing it with their skaters, because in this sport weight does matter. It is hash, but the impact on skaters joints is really huge, and that isn’t only about the quads and triple axel; doing any triples is causing injuries to knees and hips too.

OK. I can't speak for others, but to me, I did get confused what the point was. I agree weight has an impact. I'm not sure others are denying it either. I think they are similarly confused.

I think it's pretty obvious Russia lacks a good training team that accounts for growth spurts. As an example, I remember clearly an interview that Orser had given about Kim. He said while she'd been experiencing growth spurts, their physical trainer and therapist had worked along side her to strengthen her jumps, so there hadn't been a problem. This is what I find lacking in Russia.

I think it also might have to do with Russia being a state system? I'm actually not sure what kind of medicine is even available to them, because we keep hearing about injuries that get treated in Germany.

The backwards attitude doesn't help, either, though, so it's good to see @Ka3sha speak about what's being done about it.

 

[Bigbird]

I am absolutely against coaches airing their opinions about skaters’ weight to media and especially not skaters they are not involved with. As I said, I am not making any excuses for unprofessional behaviour. What Zhulin is doing is pathetic, but then again, he never had any filter at all. He was badmouthing Ilynikh even three years after Ilynikh/Katsalapov left him. Three years!
At the same time, I am not blaming coaches for thinking what they are thinking about the skaters weight or discussing it with their skaters, because in this sport weight does matter. It is hash, but the impact on skaters joints is really huge, and that isn’t only about the quads and triple axel; doing any triples is causing injuries to knees and hips too. The sad reality is that no elite sport is healthy, and if the impact on the skaters joints can be reduced by staying at lower weight without being malnourished and skeleton thin, then I am not blaming them for doing that. Like everything in life, this is about the balance between keeping the weight lower but not into such exteme that would hinder their skating. And taking the weight too low/skeleton thin would hinder the skating.

Zhulin was badmouthing Ilinykh about her protruding hips and butt when she was just 15 or 16, loudly in training while being filmed. He apologized because he saw the comment was captured. This is just the norm. What is required is for the coach to simply say to the parent your child is no longer suitable for my school, please find her some other coach so that I can find a more suitable partner for my boy. The world of Russian ice dance and ladies' singles is just harsh. Just the way it is.

 

[On My Own]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1588192241402642432

Well...

 

[Bigbird]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1588192241402642432

Well...

Speechless. I am speechless. Give them whatever they want and let them play among themselves then. Wow.

 

[Lilia A]

Well, they can't do anything about international medals. Sure, they can continue to recognize their athletes as so and so champion or medal winner, but internationally they wouldn't have that title. Maybe they're preparing so they won't have to strip her of her national title from last year?

 

[Karen-W]

It goes beyond the Valieva case, really. Refusing to recognize CAS pretty much guarantees they will be barred from the Olympics, despite Bach's noises about finding a way to bring Russian athletes back in some capacity. Refusing to abide by CAS is a straight-up no go for the IOC.

 

[On My Own]

It goes beyond the Valieva case, really. Refusing to recognize CAS pretty much guarantees they will be barred from the Olympics, despite Bach's noises about finding a way to bring Russian athletes back in some capacity. Refusing to abide by CAS is a straight-up no go for the IOC.

So it's more like "If we don't get the medal, we won't come back and we won't give you our money anymore"?

Because, honestly, sign me up for that.

 

[Bigbird]

So it's more like "If we don't get the medal, we won't come back and we won't give you our money anymore"?

Because, honestly, sign me up for that.

They can keep the blood money.

 

[Karen-W]

So it's more like "If we don't get the medal, we won't come back and we won't give you our money anymore"?

Because, honestly, sign me up for that.

Not exactly. This is probably more appropriate to be moved over to the Russian ban thread or the Russian thread in the Other Sports subforum, but this is a face-saving measure, IMO. They know the ban isn't being lifted by most international feds anytime soon, so if they refuse to recognize CAS, it can be all about how CAS is a western-biased and they'll never get a fair shake, so they don't need them or the Olympics, etc.

 

[jamesy]

Are they going to make a fakeLympics next?

 

[kwanfan1818]

A FauxLympics.

 

[euterpe]

A FauxLympics.

And they'll win the team medal, so there!

 

[Bigbird]

Not exactly. This is probably more appropriate to be moved over to the Russian ban thread or the Russian thread in the Other Sports subforum, but this is a face-saving measure, IMO. They know the ban isn't being lifted by most international feds anytime soon, so if they refuse to recognize CAS, it can be all about how CAS is a western-biased and they'll never get a fair shake, so they don't need them or the Olympics, etc.

Gaslighting101. Sheesh.