Royalty thread #15: A New Era

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Kruss said:
I actually changed my view of Camilla (for the better) after watching the documentary described here. I recommend it if you can find it online somewhere.
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If Harry is to be believed she is very good at manipulation. YMMV
 
I suspect Harry is greatly, intensely influenced by loyalty to Diana. Perhaps feeling he would be disloyal to the memory of Diana if he would like Camilla.

Often children whose parent dies during a time of discord/divorce of their parents want someone to blame for the destruction of the marriage. In that case, they may never give the new wife or husband a chance.

I do believe H/M with many things, but not sure how much to blame Camilla.

Frankly it's time to drop the hatred of Camilla. It does no one any favors and is a bad look.
 
once_upon said:
I suspect Harry is greatly, intensely influenced by loyalty to Diana. Perhaps feeling he would be disloyal to the memory of Diana if he would like Camilla.

Often children whose parent dies during a time of discord/divorce of their parents want someone to blame for the destruction of the marriage. In that case, they may never give the new wife or husband a chance.

I do believe H/M with many things, but not sure how much to blame Camilla.

Frankly it's time to drop the hatred of Camilla. It does no one any favors and is a bad look.
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It's possible that ppl who don't like Camilla don't actually hate her. I don't hate her, I would have to actually know her to hate her. I don't admire her & I feel the same way about Charles. It's one thing to cheat on your spouse, it's another to flaunt your relationship in front of the other spouses. It's mean-spirited, & imo the personality trait that led her to taunt Diana didn't magically disappear when Diana divorced Charles. Now that she has it all it's easy to be gracious (ie fool people). Leopards don't change their spots. The fact that Kate won't curtsey to her says a lot.
 
I heard a tv commentator once say the curtsy only has to happen once per day upon the first instance of seeing the hirer ranked royal. Is it possible that on the occasions when Catherine did not courtesy that she had already seen Camilla that day?
 
taf2002 said:
The fact that Kate won't curtsey to her says a lot.
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Not a fact. This article, in addition to describing the curtsy, contains a link to video footage of Kate greeting Camilla with a curtsy at an event last year. Another article in People also backs up what @Lynn226 suggested above:
When Prince William and Kate — or other members of the royal family — don't bow or curtsy to greet the King and Queen Consort, there's likely a practical reason why: they've probably already seen each other that day. They're also seen greeting each other with kisses on the cheeks or hugs.
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I would be terrible as a subject in a monarchy system. I just don't think I would be able to do the whole deference thing.

Curtsy , kissing the offered hand, kneeling in front of a Queen or King - require me to think they are better than me when they are only a human who has the fortune to be a product of a previous King or Queen.

They really are no different than me, except for being born into opulence and a certain family linage.

Good thing I'm not a royal subject.
 
once_upon said:
I would be terrible as a subject in a monarchy system. I just don't think I would be able to do the whole deference thing.

Curtsy , kissing the offered hand, kneeling in front of a Queen or King - require me to think they are better than me when they are only a human who has the fortune to be a product of a previous King or Queen.

They really are no different than me, except for being born into opulence and a certain family linage.

Good thing I'm not a royal subject.
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I think a lot of us think that way.

OTOH, if we were born into this system, we'd be indoctrinated from an early age as to how right and beneficial it is and how to behave so that these things are more natural and automatic. It's the ones who marry in who have to learn a bunch of rules and possibly change their attitudes.
 
I think the way Americans genuflect towards people with money and power (much of which is inherited) is not all that different than Brits curtsying to their version of royalty.
 
once_upon said:
I would be terrible as a subject in a monarchy system. I just don't think I would be able to do the whole deference thing.

Curtsy , kissing the offered hand, kneeling in front of a Queen or King - require me to think they are better than me when they are only a human who has the fortune to be a product of a previous King or Queen.

They really are no different than me, except for being born into opulence and a certain family linage.

Good thing I'm not a royal subject.
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Plus, I'd find it even more difficult with family members. It puts a certain distance between the family members.

I find it interesting that you, as an American mention it, though, because there are a lot of similarities between how a monarch is treated and how the US president is treated when it comes to protocol. (I'm assuming that's because Hamilton did like the aristocratic system and so little has changed with regards to protocol not just for the executive branch but the judicial one, too).
 
ballettmaus said:
I find it interesting that you, as an American mention it, though, because there are a lot of similarities between how a monarch is treated and how the US president is treated when it comes to protocol.
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Such as? Nobody bows to the President, can't turn their back on him/her, and a host of other things that people do with royalty.
 
I might shake hands with a president or stand up when a judge enters the courtroom but I don't bow or kneel. I might wait to speak until I'm spoken to, but that's pretty much what I would do for anyone.

I grew up in nursing school where the head nurses expected us to gather charts for the doctor and follow at x distance behind him to hand charts to him. I was sort of BS. I have a humorous story about one surgeon's expectations of nurses, - I basically told him he could read charts as well as I could. But not the thread for the whole exchange. But he did gather his own charts whenever I was on duty.

I put my shoes on the same as everyone else
 
I think we might be making a bigger deal about this than it is. In the video of Kate and William greeting Camilla and Charles linked above, there are warm smiles and embraces in addition to slight nods by William and subtle curtsies by Kate (one foot behind the other, very tiny knee bend and brief nod). No one is looking down, no one's knees are anywhere near the floor. Felt to me more like respect than submission.

Even the Royal Family website is quite loose about what the rest of us are (not) expected to do upon greeting a member of the family:

There are no obligatory codes of behaviour when meeting a member of the Royal Family, but many people wish to observe the traditional forms.
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Yes there are other rules etc but when it comes to the curtsies originally in question here, I don't see it as any different than other small gestures of acknowledgement, politeness and respect that many of us likely do in different situations with barely a thought.

I also don't understand why this was such a huge deal for Meghan. If I was meeting my fiance's grandmother for the first time, I likely would have asked in advance how I should address her (Mrs Windsor? Gran?), if I should bring a gift of some sort, where I should sit, what I should wear. If my future grandmother in law was also the Queen, you bet I'd have plenty of questions. The picture painted of a shocked Meghan having no idea she should curtsy - and again it's not some sweeping display like a prima ballerina - seems ridiculous to me. Plus she's an actress, and it's a piece of stagecraft, one might have thought she'd get into it, find it fun, especially knowing that at that point at least, Harry had a really fun relationship with his grandma, and this was going to be a private family meeting, not a royal spectacle.
 
Jenny said:
I think we might be making a bigger deal about this than it is. In the video of Kate and William greeting Camilla and Charles linked above, there are warm smiles and embraces in addition to slight nods by William and subtle curtsies by Kate (one foot behind the other, very tiny knee bend and brief nod). No one is looking down, no one's knees are anywhere near the floor. Felt to me more like respect than submission.

Even the Royal Family website is quite loose about what the rest of us are (not) expected to do upon greeting a member of the family:



Yes there are other rules etc but when it comes to the curtsies originally in question here, I don't see it as any different than other small gestures of acknowledgement, politeness and respect that many of us likely do in different situations with barely a thought.

I also don't understand why this was such a huge deal for Meghan. If I was meeting my fiance's grandmother for the first time, I likely would have asked in advance how I should address her (Mrs Windsor? Gran?), if I should bring a gift of some sort, where I should sit, what I should wear. If my future grandmother in law was also the Queen, you bet I'd have plenty of questions. The picture painted of a shocked Meghan having no idea she should curtsy - and again it's not some sweeping display like a prima ballerina - seems ridiculous to me. Plus she's an actress, and it's a piece of stagecraft, one might have thought she'd get into it, find it fun, especially knowing that at that point at least, Harry had a really fun relationship with his grandma, and this was going to be a private family meeting, not a royal spectacle.
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Meghan didn’t know in advance that she would be meeting the Queen.

It was spur of the moment when the Queen was in the area and wanted to stop by.

Hence the impromptu etiquette lesson by Harry.

Meghan thought that she might meet the Queen at a more formal event or invite for tea etc but nope…the Queen wanted to see her grandson.

It’s supposed to be a funny endearing story of a Queen connected to her family in a touching way but still the Queen. (I found it to be so.)
 
I THINK the Queen purposely wanted a casual intro to Meghan. Not a formal dinner invite, but more of a "granny drops by and meets the gf" moment, so less chance of a freakout.

But Meghan freaked out because it was the Queen.

So I think the Queen wanted the meeting to be casual and non-intrusive, and Meghan freaked out because she couldn't stop thinking "omg I'm meeting the Queen."

If this were reddit AITA, it would be a "NAH" situation. The Queen thought she was meeting Meghan in a low stakes, non-intrusive way, while Meghan freaked out because of who The Queen was.
 
The reason I said that about Kate not curseying was in all the coverage of the coronation the articles & the videos showed Kate as the queen passed her & they made a point saying that Kate didn't curtsey or bend/bob her head or otherwise acknowledge the queen. That may have been a one-time things though.
 
The curtsying/bowing at the coronation was weird, because they were singing God Save The King as Charles and Camilla passed, and it was all very haphazard. In this video most of the royal family (although not all, and Prince Harry looks like he's just looking down at his program or something) curtsy and bow to Charles as he passes, then the camera moves away from the family and when it comes back you can see Camilla passing them and they're all standing straight and singing (except you see Princess Anne bow her head, she was in uniform so wouldn't have curtsied). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqse9O9j3kg But if Kate didn't curtsy to Camilla she is by far not the only one in that moment. She has certainly curtsied to her many other times, including when Charles and Camilla arrived at the coronation concert the next day.
 
I would see it as respect and deference for the position they hold, not necessarily for the person holding the position. Fairly recently we lived for 18 months in Samoa and it was intriguing to see the huge respect shown there for older people. Their elders are invariably seated first, fed first, given the first choice of things - children usually last. Especially older women are held in great esteem and it is considered a great honour for a young woman to care for her grandmother.
 
puglover said:
I would see it as respect and deference for the position they hold, not necessarily for the person holding the position. Fairly recently we lived for 18 months in Samoa and it was intriguing to see the huge respect shown there for older people. Their elders are invariably seated first, fed first, given the first choice of things - children usually last. Especially older women are held in great esteem and it is considered a great honour for a young woman to care for her grandmother.
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Hmm I went to Paris this summer with my dad and was shocked by the number of people who got up from their seats in the Metro to give my dad a seat. It definitely wouldn't happen in the US.
 
I read that Kate was annoyed with Camilla at the time since Camilla allowed Kate only 4 extended family members to come to the coronation (parents, brother & sister without their spouses/SOs) even though Camilla had a very large number of her own extended family. I only read that from one or two sources so who knows if true?
 
Why would Kate think she deserves as many family members invited as Camilla, when Camilla was actually being crowned?
 
I honestly don't think Kate cares. I think that she very much views the BRF as a job, and she clocks in and out. Pretty healthy view of it.
 
If I remember correctly, many members of Camilla's family were part of the ceremony. I think we already discussed this right after the ceremony
 
Why would Kate be bothered or upset? She will have her own coronation at sometime in the future. At that time she can include the step mother's children/grandchildren if she wants or snub them if she wants.

That just reads as tabloid stuff designed to make the Royals look petty.

If Kate and others hate or dislike Camilla - do what needs to be done for the public and don't attend the intimate family things. Much like the rest of the world whose relationships with inlaws is difficult.

For as much as we don't or do like her, she's the only Royal Grandmother they've known on William's (and Harry's) side of the family. Those children may see, hear stories of Diana but she's not real to them. Camilla is.

Personally, my feelings or thoughts about Camilla will not change any Royals relationships with each other. It's really not worth mine time (although I still read this thread 🤷‍♀️ )
 
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When I think of Kate and Camilla I think of the many images and video clips I've seen of them laughing together, smiling at one another, embracing, Kate leaning down as they share a private word in the middle of a public event. I just did a search and yup, there are dozens of them.

I think much of the "news" out there is no more than clickbait, and the so-called sources are self-professed royal "experts" who aren't any closer to the private lives of the Royal Family than any of us are.

It's remarkably easy to put out misinformation and watch it spread until eventually people consider it fact because they "read it somewhere."
 
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