Re-opening rinks with social distancing

[Yazmeen]

I was actually being sarcastic after all the discussion about illegal openings and how the Philly area "ruined skating for everyone" in PA because of their high BB case load, sorry for the confusion. I don't know what I'm going to do in the future, being in my 60s and having asthma. I don't see myself on the ice anywhere until well into fall at the earliest. My apologies, my mood is crap today. Although I was serious about the "hockey camp" rink - I started skating there, very glad my old skating club left it years ago.

 

[concorde]

I live in Southeastern PA, home of illegally opened rinks, so it's kind of a moot question. I'm just glad I stopped skating at "hockey camp" central years ago.

Not all rinks in SE PA have opened. PSC&HS is closed (hits 3 months with week) with the ice melted.
In my earlier posting, I mentioned "private ice" - that when Pennsylvania was in RED and all rinks were to be closed.
"Hockey camp" is a new thing under YELLOW.

I feel private ice under RED was blatantly wrong. Hockey camp under YELLOW is not clear cut in my mind. When my daughter was pre-school aged and day care was closed for the week, I signed up her up for ice skating day camp and added the late pick-up option. So yes - it was a day care for me that week. In my area, lots of day cares have not yet re-opened AND many day camps were cancelled, so parents are scrambling to find any form of day care. I will not fault a rink for opening if they can fill that need. Adding ice beyond that is different.

 

[Yazmeen]

I feel private ice under RED was blatantly wrong. Hockey camp under YELLOW is not clear cut in my mind. When my daughter was pre-school aged and day care was closed for the week, I signed up her up for ice skating day camp and added the late pick-up option. So yes - it was a day care for me that week. In my area, lots of day cares have not yet re-opened AND many day camps were cancelled, so parents are scrambling to find any form of day care. I will not fault a rink for opening if they can fill that need. Adding ice beyond that is different.

Let me make this clear - it's NOT a camp. These are simply their regular hockey skills/sticks and pucks sessions players have to sign up for in advance. It's not a camp when you are signing up for one hour individual sessions on different days on a first-come, first-served basis. My guess is they decided to call it a "camp" because they thought that would pass muster in the yellow phase. Day camps are open, they are allowed to be. Indoor recreation areas are NOT supposed to be open, and that includes skating rinks, regardless of what you call your skating sessions. The rink is NOT supposed to be open.

 

[ioana]

Going on a different tangent. I am curious how the different clubs/rinks are handling pre-paid fees.

For instance if you prepay for a month of freestyle ice, did you get a refund/credit for when the rink was closed?

One of the rinks in NH where I used to skate offered people two options. Refunding their prorated pre-paid freestyle sessions (March-June) or using that amount as credit when the rink opens again in August. I told them to use it as credit so not sure how quick the refunds were, if someone went with that option

 

[Debbie S]

My club gave refunds to all who prepaid for (unused) ice after rinks closed.

 

[Kiki80]

Let me make this clear - it's NOT a camp. These are simply their regular hockey skills/sticks and pucks sessions players have to sign up for in advance. It's not a camp when you are signing up for one hour individual sessions on different days on a first-come, first-served basis. My guess is they decided to call it a "camp" because they thought that would pass muster in the yellow phase. Day camps are open, they are allowed to be. Indoor recreation areas are NOT supposed to be open, and that includes skating rinks, regardless of what you call your skating sessions. The rink is NOT supposed to be open.

Maybe I'm missing it but wouldn't you have to sign up for a camp?

This is what the PA Governor considers as "camps"


Summer programs include child care facilities regulated by the Pennsylvania Department of Human Services and the following part-day school age programs:
• A part-day school-age program that operates for less than 90 consecutive days per calendar year from the date the program opens to the date the program closes;
• A part-day school age program that operates 2 hours or less per day for 3 or fewer days per week;
• A part-day school age program that has a single purpose for the children’s attendance and that purpose is the only focus of the program (e.g., soccer or art class); and
• A drop-in program where a child or youth may come and go at will.
Page 1 of 4
Pennsylvania Department of Health
625 Forster Street | Harrisburg, PA 17120 https://www.governor.pa.gov/wp-cont...artment-of-Health-2020-Summer-Program-FAQ.pdf

This document says summer programs include daycares regulated by DHS AND the following types of programs. One of the allowable types of programs is a part day program for school age kids that operates for less than 2 hours a day for 3 days a week. Another allowable option is a program that has a single purpose for the child's attendance and it lists soccer and art as examples. And yet another is a drop in option.

So based on this the camp does not have to be for the sole purpose of providing childcare and there are no requirements about whether or not you have to sign up although I think any daycare requires enrollment on a first come first serve basis.

I'm sorry, I don't even have a kid that plays hockey but when you're going to say someone is doing something illegal or unethical I think it should be very clear they are violating the rules. I see no reason why hour hockey slots that kids sign up for different sessions throughout the day wouldn't fit this.

Also, as it relates to indoor recreational facilities, when in yellow they cannot be open to the public but the Governor's website says they can be used by the programs listed as "camps".

I think it's one thing to disagree but I think it's unfair to accuse businesses, coaches and parents of breaking laws when the requirements for what qualifies as a camp are pretty liberal.

For what it's worth I have a background in political science and regulatory affairs so I can speak intelligently about what actually "breaks" a law or the Governor's orders and based on what has been described and what I want out and found myself I just don't see it and I want to provide the other side to these pretty viscous attacks on parents, kids, rinks and coaches.

I have a contact within the Department of Health that agreed that in the beginning rinks should not have been open in yellow but that the Governor's updated guidance on camps changed/clarified how and when any indoor recreational facility can be utilized but not open to the public.

Sorry I just couldn't sit by and watch people call others selfish and stupid and unethical and irresponsible when I can see how the basis for their actions can be supported by the guidance available.

 

[Rollersk8Icesk8]

YES! THANK YOU kiki80!

 

[Yazmeen]

Fine, twist it any way you want. I find it fascinating how suddenly we have all these "new members" whose only purpose seems to be to be arguing that illegally opened rinks in PA aren't doing anything wrong (or to gripe if their rink isn't open and blame it on Philadelphia). And isn't is NICE that someone has a PA Dept. of Health contact who gives them information that is not officially published or made clear for the rest of the state pertaining to skating rinks specifically.

Enjoy, have at it, take whatever risks you want. Just please don't expect the rest of us here to clap for you and agree that you are correct. Your "freedom to" do whatever you like doesn't override our "freedom from" having to take the risk of being infected with a potentially deadly disease. Sadly, it's my healthcare colleagues who will stuck taking care of you if your risk taking turns out to be a poor idea.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

All I really have to add to this discussion for people who claim to have degrees in poli sci and magically appeared to argue for reopening:

City Enters Phase 4 Of Pretending Coronavirus Over

DALLAS—Saying the city remained on track for progressing into the final stage, Mayor Eric Johnson told Dallas residents Friday that they would soon officially be entering Phase 4 of pretending the coronavirus was over. “Thanks to the efforts of municipal employees, I’m happy to say we’ve reached...

tinyurl.com

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Speaking as someone who is still recovering from being teargassed while inside the comfort of their home a couple weeks back, y'all can armchair all you want about the nature of protest in the PI section of the board. I'm not interested in hearing your bad takes, not in this thread.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Going on a different tangent. I am curious how the different clubs/rinks are handling pre-paid fees.

For instance if you prepay for a month of freestyle ice, did you get a refund/credit for when the rink was closed?

Nope, no refund/etc for lost ice time at PSCHS. I should note that I've been a full club member for a few years now. I don't expect them to be generous with any kind of credit towards this year's membership, and none of their current plans are flexible enough, so I am shifting to the non-skating plan for the coming year as I see how YKW runs its course.

If things start looking better, I'll most likely do a combination of ice time at Skatium, Sims, and UPenn as schedule permits. Given the current budget issues in the City of Philadelphia at the moment, it will be interesting to see what happens with the rinks this winter.

 

[Kiki80]

Fine, twist it any way you want. I find it fascinating how suddenly we have all these "new members" whose only purpose seems to be to be arguing that illegally opened rinks in PA aren't doing anything wrong (or to gripe if their rink isn't open and blame it on Philadelphia). And isn't is NICE that someone has a PA Dept. of Health contact who gives them information that is not officially published or made clear for the rest of the state pertaining to skating rinks specifically.

Enjoy, have at it, take whatever risks you want. Just please don't expect the rest of us here to clap for you and agree that you are correct. Your "freedom to" do whatever you like doesn't override our "freedom from" having to take the risk of being infected with a potentially deadly disease. Sadly, it's my healthcare colleagues who will stuck taking care of you if your risk taking turns out to be a poor idea.

Attack me personally all you want. I am NOT arguing for rinks to reopen. I am pointing out that there is another side of this story that is supported by official documents released by the Governor on May 27, 2020 which may have been published after the guidance that some on here are relying on to argue that certain activities are illegal.

Also I'm not the first person on here to cite a conversation with DOH that isn't published, but because that conversation, which may have very well been prior to May 27th and therefore accurate at the time and the basis for some of these arguments, I was trying to point out that, as many other things have, the guidance from the Governor changed or clarified the use of indoor recreational facilities for the purposes of a sports or activity camp. Nothing in my conversation with my friend at DOH is a piece of information that is not contained in the link I provided.

TBH new members from PA are joining because this is the talk of the town so to speak. There are some pretty crazy accusations in here, if you didn't want them to draw attention, why post them in a public message board?

I also find it interesting that now that someone in PA finally posted a link to an actual document released by the Governor that at a minimum strongly weakens your arguments, those calling rinks out as illegally opened don't have any comment on the document, and instead choose to attack people personally.

 

[spinZZ]

Attack me personally all you want. I am NOT arguing for rinks to reopen. I am pointing out that there is another side of this story that is supported by official documents released by the Governor on May 27, 2020 which may have been published after the guidance that some on here are relying on to argue that certain activities are illegal.

Also I'm not the first person on here to cite a conversation with DOH that isn't published, but because that conversation, which may have very well been prior to May 27th and therefore accurate at the time and the basis for some of these arguments, I was trying to point out that, as many other things have, the guidance from the Governor changed or clarified the use of indoor recreational facilities for the purposes of a sports or activity camp. Nothing in my conversation with my friend at DOH is a piece of information that is not contained in the link I provided.

TBH new members from PA are joining because this is the talk of the town so to speak. There are some pretty crazy accusations in here, if you didn't want them to draw attention, why post them in a public message board?

I also find it interesting that now that someone in PA finally posted a link to an actual document released by the Governor that at a minimum strongly weakens your arguments, those calling rinks out as illegally opened don't have any comment on the document, and instead choose to attack people personally.

<<Emphasis added.>> Yes, this is a key point. You cited the actual government document verbatim in its full context. So no one can rationally accuse you of pulling it out of thin air, twisting words, or taking it out of context (of course, there's nothing to stop people from irrationally calling you out). If people disagree with the policy, they should petition the Governor to change it; not beat up on you for reporting it.

 

[spinZZ]

All I really have to add to this discussion for people who claim to have degrees in poli sci and magically appeared to argue for reopening:

But no where did he argue in favor of re-opening. He simply reported on what the current government policy is. He gave no opinion of whether he thought the policy is good or bad.

 

[spinZZ]

Fine, twist it any way you want. I find it fascinating how suddenly we have all these "new members" whose only purpose seems to be to be arguing that illegally opened rinks in PA aren't doing anything wrong (or to gripe if their rink isn't open and blame it on Philadelphia). And isn't is NICE that someone has a PA Dept. of Health contact who gives them information that is not officially published or made clear for the rest of the state pertaining to skating rinks specifically.

Enjoy, have at it, take whatever risks you want. Just please don't expect the rest of us here to clap for you and agree that you are correct. Your "freedom to" do whatever you like doesn't override our "freedom from" having to take the risk of being infected with a potentially deadly disease. Sadly, it's my healthcare colleagues who will stuck taking care of you if your risk taking turns out to be a poor idea.

All I really have to add to this discussion for people who claim to have degrees in poli sci and magically appeared to argue for reopening:

I don't see any notice that restricts new members from contributing to this thread, and I don't see any software that automatically restricts contributions from new members.

Have you considered a major plus of new voices? They disrupt rampant, in-bred confirmation bias among long-term established members. Each post should be evaluated on its own merits, not on whether the poster is new or not.

 

[Kiki80]

But no where did he argue in favor of re-opening. He simply reported on what the current government policy is. He gave no opinion of whether he thought the policy is good or bad.

Right! The only thing I am arguing against is continually stating that this or that is illegal or not allowed with nothing to back it up and with some pretty clear guidance on the topic that suggests otherwise. If you believe it is wrong and read the guidance differently, fine, but show us why, make your argument in a peaceful way rather than just sidestepping the issue by trying to insult people personally.

And for those questioning my background, I actually have a law degree and a background working in political science and regulatory affairs related roles.

 

[spinZZ]

Right! The only thing I am arguing against is continually stating that this or that is illegal or not allowed with nothing to back it up and with some pretty clear guidance on the topic that suggests otherwise. If you believe it is wrong and read the guidance differently, fine, but show us why, make your argument in a peaceful way rather than just sidestepping the issue by trying to insult people personally.

And for those questioning my background, I actually have a law degree and a background working in political science and regulatory affairs related roles.

There's no emojii for this. But I award you 10 pointy ears from Mr. Spock.

 

[sk8pics]

Well, this conversation helped me in one way, it reminded me to inquire about my unused freestyle tickets. The answer was that they will extend the expiration date or give a refund for unused tickets. Just as soon as they get the go-ahead to open, they'll communicate with the skaters. That's good for me since I don't know if I'll be back skating before they'll expire.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Fine, twist it any way you want. I find it fascinating how suddenly we have all these "new members" whose only purpose seems to be to be arguing that illegally opened rinks in PA aren't doing anything wrong (or to gripe if their rink isn't open and blame it on Philadelphia). And isn't is NICE that someone has a PA Dept. of Health contact who gives them information that is not officially published or made clear for the rest of the state pertaining to skating rinks specifically.

Enjoy, have at it, take whatever risks you want. Just please don't expect the rest of us here to clap for you and agree that you are correct. Your "freedom to" do whatever you like doesn't override our "freedom from" having to take the risk of being infected with a potentially deadly disease. Sadly, it's my healthcare colleagues who will stuck taking care of you if your risk taking turns out to be a poor idea.

 

[MacMadame]

I still don't see how if I got to the Tues evening Sticks workout for an hour and then on Sat I got to Power Skating for 1-2 hours, how this is in any way, shape or form, a camp. It's not even a "camp."

In fact, I see nothing in that long post of @Kiki80's that would say that this is allowed. And it doesn't address the rinks that were open before even this was allowed and are just running their regular freestyle sessions.

I posted about my (ex) tri club. They also claimed they were following the SIP orders with their workouts. But every single other tri club in the area suspended their in-person, coached workouts while they were still having them. I no longer trust them and even if they explained to me how those workouts really did follow the letter of those orders, I would still not trust them because I don't think what they did was safe even if it was not 100% illegal.

 

[Kiki80]

I still don't see how if I got to the Tues evening Sticks workout for an hour and then on Sat I got to Power Skating for 1-2 hours, how this is in any way, shape or form, a camp. It's not even a "camp."

In fact, I see nothing in that long post of @Kiki80's that would say that this is allowed. And it doesn't address the rinks that were open before even this was allowed and are just running their regular freestyle sessions.

I posted about my (ex) tri club. They also claimed they were following the SIP orders with their workouts. But every single other tri club in the area suspended their in-person, coached workouts while they were still having them. I no longer trust them and even if they explained to me how those workouts really did follow the letter of those orders, I would still not trust them because I don't think what they did was safe even if it was not 100% illegal.

So, my thought is that they are trying to keep things more informal to avoid crossing the line into being organized sports. But that's really just a theory and I'm not saying I endorse it.

But I do 100% agree that rinks that were having clinics or whatever privately before May 27th were out of compliance.

And lastly, I think it is your absolute right to have a different take on things and it would be understandable why you wouldn't be trusting of your rink if that is how you feel and this may surprise people but I get it. I really do. In these times, it's hard to trust other people and public places because the stakes are so high, it's your health and your family member's health that is at stake. There is so much unknown, guidance is sometimes vague or conflicting and at the end of the day the "legally" right answer might not be clear. I'm sincerely sorry that you have lost trust in your local rink since we all know there isn't a rink on every corner like there is a Starbucks!

 

[spinZZ]

deleted

 

[spinZZ]

deleted since other answer was posted by Kiki80 while I was typing, making mine unnecessary

 

[Yazmeen]

And lastly, I think it is your absolute right to have a different take on things and it would be understandable why you wouldn't be trusting of your rink if that is how you feel and this may surprise people but I get it. I really do. In these times, it's hard to trust other people and public places because the stakes are so high, it's your health and your family member's health that is at stake. There is so much unknown, guidance is sometimes vague or conflicting and at the end of the day the "legally" right answer might not be clear. I'm sincerely sorry that you have lost trust in your local rink since we all know there isn't a rink on every corner like there is a Starbucks!

I find it fascinating how you are trying to pass off that you are so “sympathetic” about rinks opening illegally and how some of us might not "trust" our rinks if they do so. Yet you also seem to be VERY nosy about inquiring if we'd want to leave our rinks, clubs, and coaches because of any that opened illegally - you seem very interested in who our rinks, clubs and coaches are. Meanwhile, you're also defending a rink/system that did open up illegally with "camps," which now includes "freestyle camp" - schedule your sessions, skaters, apparently now scheduling freestyle skating hours qualifies as a " day camp!!!" You've certainly been an interesting and inquisitive little addition to our forum here, and I don't agree for a minute that your "evidence" rightfully proves that skating rinks in PA are supposed to be open in the yellow phase for any reason. I'm also sure you'll understand if we don't care to share our personal information with you, despite how much you "care" about all of us.

And send my love to your twin, Rollersk8Icesk8 who resembles you so strongly in posting style and enthusiasm.

 

[Debbie S]

I'm glad you started this thread, @Jozet b/c before the trolls arrived, it was an informative discussion and helpful to hear about what other areas/rinks are doing. I'm sorry a few people hijacked it.

 

[Yazmeen]

I'm glad you started this thread, @Jozet b/c before the trolls arrived, it was an informative discussion and helpful to hear about what other areas/rinks are doing. I'm sorry a few people hijacked it.

THIS. Thank you, @Jozet

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I agree @Jozet this was very helpful! And it's still helpful if you just put those newcomers on ignore.

 

[Kiki80]

I find it fascinating how you are trying to pass off that you are so “sympathetic” about rinks opening illegally and how some of us might not "trust" our rinks if they do so. Yet you also seem to be VERY nosy about inquiring if we'd want to leave our rinks, clubs, and coaches because of any that opened illegally - you seem very interested in who our rinks, clubs and coaches are. Meanwhile, you're also defending a rink/system that did open up illegally with "camps," which now includes "freestyle camp" - schedule your sessions, skaters, apparently now scheduling freestyle skating hours qualifies as a " day camp!!!" You've certainly been an interesting and inquisitive little addition to our forum here, and I don't agree for a minute that your "evidence" rightfully proves that skating rinks in PA are supposed to be open in the yellow phase for any reason. I'm also sure you'll understand if we don't care to share our personal information with you, despite how much you "care" about all of us.

And send my love to your twin, Rollersk8Icesk8 who resembles you so strongly in posting style and enthusiasm.

I'm sorry that my ability to have a different viewpoint from someone and still be compassionate towards their concerns is so offensive to you. When @MacMadame wrote her post she expressed her viewpoint and said that nothing will change her mind and guess what, that I can understand. When you take the personal attacks away like she did, it becomes a two way conversation where people can disagree and respect at the same time.

I find it fascinating that your entire agenda here is to shove only your viewpoint down everyone's throat and if someone disagrees with you, it's time to attack them. But hey, you do you. I have better things to focus my time and energy on.

 

[Yazmeen]

I'm sorry that my ability to have a different viewpoint from someone and still be compassionate towards their concerns is so offensive to you. When @MacMadame wrote her post she expressed her viewpoint and said that nothing will change her mind and guess what, that I can understand. When you take the personal attacks away like she did, it becomes a two way conversation where people can disagree and respect at the same time.

I find it fascinating that your entire agenda here is to shove only your viewpoint down everyone's throat and if someone disagrees with you, it's time to attack them. But hey, you do you. I have better things to focus my time and energy on.

Pot, kettle, black, my dear. Don't let the screen door hit you in the behind on your way out.

 

[gkelly]

I've heard from my coach that my rink is looking to open in the next few weeks.

It will be pretty much be all freestyle sessions, with no skating in dance or synchro holds.
No hockey or public sessions.

I don't know how many skaters will be allowed per session or how the prices will change. I still have some prepaid credit with the rink that I will plan to use up even if the costs have doubled, but after that we shall see...

Details for remote payment and contact info available. Kids are supposed to arrive with skates on, skaters who drive themselves will have designated benches to change at.

Masks while in the building. My coach asks skaters to wear the mask around their neck while skating and to put it on when approaching the boards.

I'll let the kids try it out for a month or so before I brave the ice myself.

I had been planning to transition out of singles skating and focus on ice dancing, but since most of what I need to work on involves touching the coach (or the wall) I guess that will remain on hold indefinitely.