Quad toeloop from inside three turn entry

[SmallFairy]

Ok, this is a bit nerdy, but I'm jumping the toe loop (single) from an outside three turn entry. I find I get a lot more power and go from that extra step that's then required in between. My coach is funnily teasing me, as I'm only one of two in our practice group who prefers the outside. I told her "All the men doing quads are jumping from outside three turn too" and she laughed

But are they? Yes, nowadays they are. Why? Is it really so that you get more power from the outside? I feel the inside entrance tends to be more "round" and require even better upper body control. Of course, it's also a matter of personal preference.

I started checking old videos and in the earlier days, there were guys doing quads, and really good ones, from inside three turn entrance:
Brian Boitano
Alexei Urmanov
Petr Barna
Ivan Dinev
Anthony Liu
Michael Weiss
(I'm sure there's more, these are just examples I found on top of my head)

At the same time, some of the oldies did outside three turn entrance:
Kurt Browning
Elvis Stojko
Josef Sabovcik

And later, from outside:
Ilia Kulik
Alexei Yagudin
Eugeni Plushenko
Chenjiang Li
Emmanuel Sandhu
Brian Joubert
Stephane Lambiel
Denis Ten
(again, just examples, there are tons more)

And some of the oldies, but goldies that learned a quad late in life, outside three turn:
Todd Eldredge
Dmitri Dmitrenko

Now I don't see the inside three turn anywhere near quads. Chen, Hanyu, Uno, the Russians, the French - all outside.

So, I wonder...when the before mentioned guys, Boitano, Browning, and further on, started skating as little kids, no one thought of quads, and they could learn the toe loop either way, but in later years, coaches know quads could be an issue in a few years, and they all leanr the outside three turn entrance...because it's better for quads? I would love to hear your opinions.

 

[honey]

Nic Nadeau also does the inside three for a quad, IIRC.

This is probably quite a simplistic explanation, but from my own experience just with triples, the inside three entry can be very swingy. It’s really easy for the left side (counter clockwise jumpers) to get away from you after the three turn. The Mohawk or outside three-change foot allows you to square off much better. It also gives some more power with the reach back (for me it did anyway ).

Some of it I’m sure is just a preference thing and stuff works for some that doesn’t for others. My coaches taught singles with inside three and then changed it to outside theee starting with doubles. I suppose their logic was that it’s easier coordination wise for a very small child to do just an inside three entry for a single. They were not proponents of the inside three for anything beyond a single though.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks for the interesting technical discussion.

And some of the oldies, but goldies that learned a quad late in life, outside three turn:
Todd Eldredge
Dmitri Dmitrenko

Small point: early Dmitrenko attempt from inside three

 

[Rukia]

I agree about the swinginess of the inside three. I have a hard time checking myself to pick in, and I'm only rotating once. I much prefer the outside three. I think I'm the only person in my adult class of 7 people who does it that way though. Hahaha.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

Interesting observation and questions. One more recent skater (in addition to Nicolas Nadeau) who I happened to remember with the inside 3-turn entrance is Ryan Bradley:
https://youtu.be/6_-FiufTjd8?t=58

 

[aliceanne]

I thought the jump from an outside 3 turn (inside edge takeoff) was a toe walley.

How are you getting on an outside edge to do a toe loop?

 

[honey]

I thought the jump from an outside 3 turn (inside edge takeoff) was a toe walley.

How are you getting on an outside edge to do a toe loop?

We’re talking about the set up. It’s an outside three, change foot, then reach back.

A Walley is just a toe loop taken off from an inside edge on the skating foot rather than an outside edge.

 

[aliceanne]

We’re talking about the set up. It’s an outside three, change foot, then reach back.

A Walley is just a toe loop taken off from an inside edge on the skating foot rather than an outside edge.

Thanks . I figured it out after I typed it. I learned loop jumps that way.

I never thought to do a toe loop that. I’ll try it.

 

[gkelly]

A Walley is just a toe loop taken off from an inside edge on the skating foot rather than an outside edge.

A Toe Walley is just a toe loop taken off from an inside edge on the skating foot rather than an outside edge.

A Walley is an edge jump.

 

[honey]

A Toe Walley is just a toe loop taken off from an inside edge on the skating foot rather than an outside edge.

A Walley is an edge jump.

Ugh, yes. Realizing what I said now. Too much multitasking . You are correct.

 

[antmanb]

I find it interesting that a Mishin skater (Urmanov) started out doing quads from the inside 3, but the rest of Mishin's students did LFO three turn.

Another interesting observation I have had is that most skaters used to use the spiked LFO three turn entrance into quads when they did them, but I feel like most guys use a salchow-like RBO/ step into LFO three turn/change feet/pick set up into the quad toe now.

My own lowly adult skating experience is that when I switched to the LFO three turn I tended to get more power and height through the jump, but I also picked up a bad toe-waltz from doing it that way. Something about the change of foot made me start to turn the picking foot out, and probably I wasn't controlling the extra speed so well so started planting the pick forwards. I had to go back to the inside 3 turn to fix the toe-waltz.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I learned the Toe from both entries. The inside 3 is a good way to unlearn the dreaded "toe waltz" as it puts you in a position where the free foot has to cross the picking foot before lifting off. It should feel a little like kicking a soccer ball with the inside of your foot. (You can also practice this by working the jump on a pivot from standstill.) This entry does require you to have strong hip control to prevent it from getting overly swingy, however.

I didn't get to learn the outside 3 until I had mastered the inside as it requires more head/arm control (on takeoff you should be looking into the circle), in tandem with feeling comfortable with a back outside lean and the foot change.

I practice both; I find I like the inside entry a hair more because the foot change feels less rushed. Also I find there's a better presentation opportunity with the inside edge. The other entry is great for working on combos, so I typically drill them as inside edge + outside edge.