Prince Andrew

Can I ask a few dumb questions?

Is he accused of KNOWINGLY having sex with someone who was not acting of her own free will or was too young for sex in the country where they were?

At some point he became aware of Epstein's practices. Were his encounters with Ms. Guiffre after he gained this knowledge?

I'm hardly a fan of his, but I'm curious as to why he's getting so much public flogging for this while soooooooooo many other of Epstein's friends are being left undisturbed.
 
taf2002 said:
Historically Andrew & Edward will lose their Prince titles when Charles becomes King & will get Royal Duke or just plain Duke titles. But I imagine they will still be invited to family functions. I can't think of any reason that would change.
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This is not true. The Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent did not lose their titles as princes when their brothers (Edward, and later Albert) ascended to the throne.

It is generally expected that Prince Edward will be made Duke of Edinburgh once his father passes away, so he will be addressed as a Duke but will still be a prince.
 
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Zemgirl said:
This is not true. The Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent did not lose their titles as princes when their brothers (Edward, and later Albert) ascended to the throne.

It is generally expected that Prince Edward will be made Duke of Edinburgh once his father passes away.
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You say it's not true, then why didn't you call Gloucester & Kent by their Prince titles? And then you say Edward will be made Edinburgh. I'm confused.
 
taf2002 said:
You say it's not true, then why didn't you call Gloucester & Kent by their Prince titles? And then you say Edward will be made Edinburgh. I'm confused.
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I added a clarification- you're mixing up titles and forms of address. Andrew is styled Duke of York but is still a prince. Technically I believe the current Dukes of Gloucester and Kent are still princes as well, but their heirs will not be and the titles will become regular rather than royal dukedoms.
 
taf2002 said:
You say it's not true, then why didn't you call Gloucester & Kent by their Prince titles? And then you say Edward will be made Edinburgh. I'm confused.
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It's tradition. Princes are awarded royal Dukedoms and are then referred to by the Duke title. They are still royal princes. Both Prince William and Prince Harry are now known by their Duke title but still retain their royal Prince designation. It has long been known that Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh when Philip passes.
 
People who are currently princes in the UK, though they maybe addressed by other titles:
The Prince of Wales
Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
Prince George of Cambridge
Prince Louis of Cambridge
Prince Harry (Henry), Duke of Sussex
Prince Andrew, Duke of York
Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex
Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester
Prince Edward, Duke of Kent
Prince Michael of Kent

And of course, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, though he is obviously not in the line of succession.
 
Coco said:
Can I ask a few dumb questions?
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These are good quesitons, not dumb ones.

Coco said:
Is he accused of KNOWINGLY having sex with someone who was not acting of her own free will or was too young for sex in the country where they were?
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He isn't facing any formal charges. Virginia Giuffre says that she was (1) trafficked and (2) forced to have sex. These would be illegal acts. She also says that the incident happened in London when she was 17. The age of consent in England is sixteen.

Coco said:
At some point he became aware of Epstein's practices. Were his encounters with Ms. Guiffre after he gained this knowledge?
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It isn't clear what, exactly you mean when you say, "he became aware of Epstein's practices." He associated with Jeffrey Epstein both before and after Epstein was convicted served time in prison. He was photographed with the young Virginia Giuffre before Epstein's conviction and supposedly had sex with her back then, not after Epstein was released.
 
taf2002 said:
Historically Andrew & Edward will lose their Prince titles when Charles becomes King & will get Royal Duke or just plain Duke titles. But I imagine they will still be invited to family functions. I can't think of any reason that would change.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that is not correct, the losing the title of Prince. Prince Michael of Kent is still Prince Michael of Kent. The Duke of Kent (who is also a Prince) is his older brother. I think it may be the the Prince with the title of Duke just uses the Duke title, not that he loses the title of Prince?

ETA: Whoops, sorry, missed the second page and the other responses!
 
canbelto said:
Trump now claims he "doesn't know" Prince Andrew despite meeting with him earlier this year:

www.nytimes.com

‘I Don’t Know Prince Andrew,’ Trump Says. Photos Say Otherwise. (Published 2019)

Speaking to reporters in London, President Trump denied knowing Prince Andrew, despite having been photographed with him on several occasions.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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Meeting someone doesn’t imply that you know the person properly. If I meet someone in work capacity, we usually behave in formal/professional way and even after spending several such meeting, I would not be able to comment on the person’s character or personality.
 
hanca said:
Meeting someone doesn’t imply that you know the person properly. If I meet someone in work capacity, we usually behave in formal/professional way and even after spending several such meeting, I would not be able to comment on the person’s character or personality.
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True but you would not say I don't know that person. You would say I don't him well, or I just met him a few times.
 
taf2002 said:
True but you would not say I don't know that person. You would say I don't him well, or I just met him a few times.
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‘I don’t know him’ can have several meanings, depending on context. You don’t know someone if you never met him/her, but you also don’t really know someone you did meet but did not share any personal information with. How could you say you know the person if you don’t know anything personal about them? What exactly do you know about the person that makes you say you know them? When discussing writing references on another thread, someone wrote that she doesn’t really know the student, and she has been teaching him/her!

I wonder if it was someone else saying this, whether everyone would be so insistent that it must mean only that meaning ‘never met him’, and as the speaker clearly met the person (which is known fact), everyone is far too keen to make him a liar rather than wonder what he really meant.
 
Coco said:
Can I ask a few dumb questions?

Is he accused of KNOWINGLY having sex with someone who was not acting of her own free will or was too young for sex in the country where they were?

At some point he became aware of Epstein's practices. Were his encounters with Ms. Guiffre after he gained this knowledge?

I'm hardly a fan of his, but I'm curious as to why he's getting so much public flogging for this while soooooooooo many other of Epstein's friends are being left undisturbed.
Click to expand...

We shall see what shakes out. I am just listening to both her interview and comments about it. Ms. Guiffre came forward, and there are pictures. She is saying that she was trafficked from the US to UK by Epstein to have sex with Andrew. And, there are pictures. Bummer for him.
 
If it were anyone other than Trump I'd be open to the idea that just because you've met someone, been photographed together or even had them at a party in your own home doesn't mean you necessarily "know" them.

But this is Trump, who quite regularly says he doesn't know people when he decides he doesn't want to be associated with them anymore.
 
I'm confused by Ms. Guiffre's story. She says she was with Epstein who then trafficked her to Andrew 3 times. So was she willingly having sex with Epstein? If so she can't play the "I was only 17" card. And if she was unwilling with Andrew why did she go back 2 more times? I don't mean to be victim-shaming so maybe I have the facts wrong. But if you're going to blame someone (even if he's a known sleeze) you need to be clear in your facts.
 
taf2002 said:
I'm confused by Ms. Guiffre's story. She says she was with Epstein who then trafficked her to Andrew 3 times. So was she willingly having sex with Epstein? If so she can't play the "I was only 17" card. And if she was unwilling with Andrew why did she go back 2 more times? I don't mean to be victim-shaming so maybe I have the facts wrong. But if you're going to blame someone (even if he's a known sleeze) you need to be clear in your facts.
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She was a sex slave, held against her will. There were many other troubled young women that Epstein treated like sex slaves.
 
taf2002 said:
I'm confused by Ms. Guiffre's story. She says she was with Epstein who then trafficked her to Andrew 3 times. So was she willingly having sex with Epstein? If so she can't play the "I was only 17" card. And if she was unwilling with Andrew why did she go back 2 more times? I don't mean to be victim-shaming so maybe I have the facts wrong. But if you're going to blame someone (even if he's a known sleeze) you need to be clear in your facts.
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Someone who is trafficked cannot give any kind of meaningful consent.
 
Zemgirl said:
Someone who is trafficked cannot give any kind of meaningful consent.
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I agree. My question is was she trafficked with Jeffrey in the 1st place? Did he snatch her off the street? Did she ever tell anyone? Where were her parents? I'm not doubting that she was mistreated, I'm just saying there is still a lot of questions.
 
taf2002 said:
I agree. My question is was she trafficked with Jeffrey in the 1st place? Did he snatch her off the street? Did she ever tell anyone? Where were her parents? I'm not doubting that she was mistreated, I'm just saying there is still a lot of questions.
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Epstein's M.O. was not unlike the regular street pimp -- he looked for runaways and other troubled teens and took them to his palace to be kept as a sex slave. One might as well ask why any teen ends up with a middle aged pimp.
 
I guess I have questions because the situation is way outside of my own experiences. At age 17 I was still a virgin so I don't think anyone could have preyed on me. I was actually approached at 17 by a 40ish man & reacted with disgust & horror. I also went home & told my mother so if something had happened to me she would have had that information.

Per her own words Ms Giuffre was recruited at her place of work & apparently wanted to please Epstein & his procurer. I think most of us wouldn't have given a shit what they wanted. And she talks about dancing with Andrew in a nightclub so other people must have been around. I would have screamed bloody murder. So I just want to understand.
 
taf2002 said:
I guess I have questions because the situation is way outside of my own experiences. At age 17 I was still a virgin so I don't think anyone could have preyed on me. I was actually approached at 17 by a 40ish man & reacted with disgust & horror. I also went home & told my mother so if something had happened to me she would have had that information.

Per her own words Ms Giuffre was recruited at her place of work & apparently wanted to please Epstein & his procurer. I think most of us wouldn't have given a shit what they wanted. And she talks about dancing with Andrew in a nightclub so other people must have been around. I would have screamed bloody murder. So I just want to understand.
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Omg. You obviously have never worked with troubled teens. If you've ever been a teacher you will know 12 year olds who are pregnant with their stepfathers' babies and were told to have sex with their stepfather's by their own mothers.

Your comments are very ignorant and it is victim blaming.
 
canbelto said:
Omg. You obviously have never worked with troubled teens. If you've ever been a teacher you will know 12 year olds who are pregnant with their stepfathers' babies and were told to have sex with their stepfather's by their own mothers.

Your comments are very ignorant and it is victim blaming.
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I admitted I am ignorant of that culture. And I am not victim-blaming. Wanting to understand is wanting to be not ignorant. Maybe I should just ignore everyone different from me & not try to understand them.
 
I think a lot of this is hard to understand for many of us, and I think honest open discussion about it is a good thing for everyone. There's no need to judge, in fact that's the last thing we should be doing here. If we're not willing to help each other understand then there's little we can do to help those who are victimized - in the past, in the present, and in the future.
 
This is where my confusion is. I know different situations - but still - Michael Jackson was accused a number of times of sexual misconduct with prepubescent boys. There were numerous pictures of him with these young boys and some facts that seemed to corroborate these accusations. Also, Michael's own words admitting to sleeping night after night with other people's children were unfathomable to most adults. He was a beloved and superbly talented entertainer. Many, to this day, believe him innocent and a misunderstood tragic figure. Prince Andrew has been accused and may very well be guilty. I am not sure I understand the rush to judgement. I think wanting to understand is not victim blaming.
 
People can educate themselves about this issue. There are a lot of articles and materials out there about sex trafficking, sexual abuse of teens/children, etc.

How U.S. citizens become human trafficking victims
www.psychologytoday.com

How U.S. Citizens Become Human Trafficking Victims

Many human trafficking victims are not physically held against their will, and some are even allowed to have cell phones and free time. So why don't they escape?
www.psychologytoday.com www.psychologytoday.com

Police: Every 16-year-old girl in Fresno targeted by sex traffickers


Article on the Nxivm sex slave cult (warning, this is a tough read)
www.theguardian.com

'Everything was just lies': how alleged sex cult Nxivm deceived its victims

As the trial of the group’s founder, Keith Raniere, begins, experts say people attracted to change are vulnerable to manipulative ‘cultish group behavior’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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