Poll: Should the 'q' call for jumps be eliminated?

[Sylvia]

@Tahuu posted a blog link earlier today (ETA in the U.S. Men’s thread at https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ason-news-updates.108445/page-19#post-6110967) and I decided to make a separate poll & discussion thread.

Feel free to discuss or whatever.

Edited to link to the original post in the U.S. Men’s thread in GSD since it’s not necessary to post the direct link again for the purpose of this poll thread.

 

[Aceon6]

To have a separate category for 45°, as distinct from 40° or 50° is just silly. Are the judges using an onscreen protractor?

 

[Sylvia]

Relevant excerpts from pages 3-4 of ISU Communication No. 2334 (July 8, 2020): https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

JUMPS
Jumps with missing rotation:
Downgraded (<<): Missing rotation of half a revolution or more.
Underrotated (<): Missing rotation of more than a quarter revolution but less than half a revolution. The jump will receive
80% of the base value and Judges will reduce GOE.
Landed on the quarter (q): Technical panel will indicate this with a sign “q”. The jump will receive full base value and
Judges will reduce GOE.
...
Single Euler in between two listed jumps in jump combinations
Single Euler (1Eu) missing half a revolution or more will be considered as downgraded (<<). In this case the judges will
apply the reduction for a downgraded jump.
If the Single Euler is missing less than half a revolution, it will not be considered as under-rotated (<) or as landed on
the quarter (q) by the Technical panel. If the Single Euler is not clearly jumped or it is executed as a step over, the
judges will apply a reduction in GOE.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Paraphrasing my post from the US Men's thread - but it applies IMHO to every micromeasuring facet of IJS:

...those administering the IJS "code of points" are trying to microclassify every iota of components and expect that human judges and specialists will be able to make decisions about them in, if not real time, very close to it. That amount of statistical overkill is, from the point of view of someone who works with data for a career, absolutely ridiculous.

 

[her grace]

The q call is being used the same way as all the other under calls are used. If you're really in favor, no q call when you deserve it. Or if you should get <<, you can get a q.

What we really need is a sensor to put on the skate blade that could actually count rotation (pre and under), but there's no desire to do that because how could you protect the favorites?

 

[tony]

Yes, they should be eliminated. It’s used too generously for skaters that never learned good technique.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

The q call is being used the same way as all the other under calls are used. If you're really in favor, no q call when you deserve it. Or if you should get <<, you can get a q.

What we really need is a sensor to put on the skate blade that could actually count rotation (pre and under), but there's no desire to do that because how could you protect the favorites?

And who do you suggest would provide the funding for developing and implementing the hardware and software for such a device's use?

 

[her grace]

Why the ISU, of course.

 

[tony]

And who do you suggest would provide the funding for developing and implementing the hardware and software for such a device's use?

Japan already has something that can do much of what is needed. Didn’t Craig Buntin design something, too? It’s not that far-fetched to think it could happen sometime soon.

Imagine it: its the 2026 Olympics and some Russian skater is standing by the boards demanding a review of a jump for the previous skater, and then it shows up slo-mo on a big screen with either ROTATED or NOT ROTATED for the audience to cheer or boo

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Japan already has something that can do much of what is needed. Didn’t Craig Buntin design something, too? It’s not that far-fetched to think it could happen sometime soon.

Imagine it: its the 2026 Olympics and some Russian skater is standing by the boards demanding a review of a jump for the previous skater, and then it shows up slo-mo on a big screen with either ROTATED or NOT ROTATED for the audience to cheer or boo

Imagine the calls of the software or hardware being manipulated or tampered with to help or hinder a skater. Just TF what we need...

 

[tony]

Imagine the calls of the software or hardware being manipulated or tampered with to help or hinder a skater. Just TF what we need...

That wasn’t your question, though

Of course there’s a possibility for things to go wrong— even unintentionally. But tennis has gotten it right. Using a computer to do all the work and have it display like Japan has done at their National Championships and NHK for the last several seasons is the best bet. No needed additional equipment on the skate or blade, just a computer that all of the world is going to be able to see during replays.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Don't know and don't care. The scoring system is a sham.

-BB

 

[On My Own]

The kind of technology that is available - one camera angle total - to the Tech Panel, makes it impossible to tell if a jump is "exactly" 90 degrees. And that's before you come to whether or not a person's eyes are so finely attuned that they can say EXACTLY where a jump is 90 watching it on the screen. Borderline, yes. "Exactly 90", no. I always laugh when people pretend they can tell when a jump is "q" (this includes Twitter/Reddit/GS/other places, for the record).

I think the TP is using it as a substitute for a jump they think is UR, but can't tell. For Zhou, I'm guessing they placed his jumps in places they know to be blind spots for the camera (not going to watch his skating to confirm this, thanks). So they force the judges to mark him with -GOE instead.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Why the ISU, of course.

The wealthy skate-parents too!

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Imagine it: its the 2026 Olympics and some Russian skater is standing by the boards demanding a review of a jump for the previous skater, and then it shows up slo-mo on a big screen with either ROTATED or NOT ROTATED for the audience to cheer or boo

I'm loving it!!! That would be HUGE for the audience!! They should do that now during the K/C!! That's a really good idea, tony.

I think the Q should be unnecessary. As people have said, there are no mathematicians out there checking the degrees off 90 with a protractor. However, I voted to keep the Q though, because it does give skaters that are a bit under a bit of leeway so that they don't get totally nailed. There's "UR" Sarah Hughes-style (well she'd probably get DG on most of her jumps) and a "UR" Vincent Zhou who is JUST BARELY at the 90* point. If it helps a skater like Vincent I'm glad the Q is an option. Also, with skaters like Karen Chen. She seems to have a great skate, lands all her triples with decent run out, and then BAM, all the Qs and URs. Imagine if she didn't have the option of a Q, Alysa Liu also, they'd never break top 6 or top 10. So for now until there is a more precise way to measure the angle difference, I'm for keeping the Q.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

I'm loving it!!! That would be HUGE for the audience!! They should do that now during the K/C!! That's a really good idea, tony.

I am quite certain a simple set of artistic impression marks would be much more exhilarating for the audience,dear.

-BB

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Yes, that. But wouldn't it be great if during the program on the jumbotron that the audience can see which jump is getting flagged for review for a Q/UR and then when the tech panel reviews it, it's on the big jumbotron and EVERYONE can see the call. I love that idea! (And a round of high PCS marks helps, too!)

 

[AxelAnnie]

Don't know and don't care. The scoring system is a sham.

-BB

Boy, you got that right!!

 

[AxelAnnie]

Yes, that. But wouldn't it be great if during the program on the jumbotron that the audience can see which jump is getting flagged for review for a Q/UR and then when the tech panel reviews it, it's on the big jumbotron and EVERYONE can see the call. I love that idea! (And a round of high PCS marks helps, too!)

Well, I guess one needs to decide if you want the audience to watch the skating or the jumbotron.

Where will the cameras be focused during the skate.

I must say making it more difficult for the casual fan to enjoy figure skating on the tv or in the rink......let's put a whole bunch of stuff on the jumbotron that they neither understand nor care about.

Is the counter that we see on TV at the competition?

 

[AxelAnnie]

As to the Q call. I don't think anything that is a negative should bear someone's name. Would you like to be famous for under rotations?

 

[tony]

As to the Q call. I don't think anything that is a negative should bear someone's name. Would you like to be famous for under rotations?

What

 

[AxelAnnie]

What

I don't think what I said is confusing. Although I am easily confused these days.

Is not the topic of this thread about naming the q call after VZ?
And the q is a negative. I just think it is not nice and not necessary to call something that lowers points after a person. It would be a drag to have that hanging around your neck.

 

[tony]

I don't think what I said is confusing. Although I am easily confused these days.

Is not the topic of this thread about naming the q call after VZ?
And the q is a negative. I just think it is not nice and not necessary to call something that lowers points after a person. It would be a drag to have that hanging around your neck.

Never mind, I get where you're coming from now

But the topic of the thread is whether the 'q' should be eliminated or not, and it certainly wasn't created with Vincent Zhou and VZ only in mind. Although I think it's likely that several posters wouldn't mind such a rule named after him.

 

[Tahuu]

Yes, get rid of it. The q rule gives an additional 45* benefit of the doubt to underrotaters. Few would actually land at 90* mark to get a q.

 

[Karen-W]

The kind of technology that is available - one camera angle total - to the Tech Panel, makes it impossible to tell if a jump is "exactly" 90 degrees. And that's before you come to whether or not a person's eyes are so finely attuned that they can say EXACTLY where a jump is 90 watching it on the screen. Borderline, yes. "Exactly 90", no. I always laugh when people pretend they can tell when a jump is "q" (this includes Twitter/Reddit/GS/other places, for the record).

I think the TP is using it as a substitute for a jump they think is UR, but can't tell. For Zhou, I'm guessing they placed his jumps in places they know to be blind spots for the camera (not going to watch his skating to confirm this, thanks). So they force the judges to mark him with -GOE instead.

How hard/expensive would it be for this technology to be available at every competition, I think is the bigger question/challenge. Is it something that could be installed in every arena/rink where IJS competitions are held? This could be especially useful even outside of competition for skaters while training and learning new jumps.

I would love nothing more than to take the human error out of the equation (and end the countless critiques in various pbp threads about the q, >, and >> calls, especially when they are applied inconsistently even in the same competition.

And I love @tony's idea of this being something displayed on the jumbotron, but I would incorporate it into the normal replay that occurs during the wait for scores, that way the audience is still paying attention to the skating and not the jumbotron during the actual program.

 

[tony]

And I love @tony's idea of this being something displayed on the jumbotron, but I would incorporate it into the normal replay that occurs during the wait for scores, that way the audience is still paying attention to the skating and not the jumbotron during the actual program.

No, definitely not during the program. They have enough time between the skater finishing and the marks (where they are reviewing manually) to show maximum 7 jumping elements in replays where the technical panel may one day not even have to review for rotation. I'm sure someone, somewhere can add colorful graphics or something that clearly shows what was rotated fully enough, what was 1/4-1/2 underrotated, and what was more than 1/2 underrotated (downgraded). Honestly, it could even be auto-input into the tracker for everyone to follow along with on the top of their screens at home, and then 'confirmed' for the audience in the replay.

In my imaginary future, the q doesn't exist.

 

[Karen-W]

No, definitely not during the program. They have enough time between the skater finishing and the marks (where they are reviewing manually) to show maximum 7 jumping elements in replays where the technical panel may one day not even have to review for rotation. I'm sure someone, somewhere can add colorful graphics or something that clearly shows what was rotated fully enough, what was 1/4-1/2 underrotated, and what was more than 1/2 underrotated (downgraded). Honestly, it could even be auto-input into the tracker for everyone to follow along with on the top of their screens at home, and then 'confirmed' for the audience in the replay.

In my imaginary future, the q doesn't exist.

Yes, and in your imaginary world, pre-rotation also is included in this calculation, right?

It would be amazing, I agree. I really wish I was a tech entrepreneur with money to burn to make this happen, lol.

 

[tony]

Yes, and in your imaginary world, pre-rotation also is included in this calculation, right?

It would be amazing, I agree. I really wish I was a tech entrepreneur with money to burn to make this happen, lol.

Yes. Hopefully this summer is the time they finally address the problem. The jumps across the board have gotten really bad-- even the 'lesser' triples. I know most fans don't want another layer of numbers and reductions of base values to deal with, but this should've been much higher priority than the 'q'.

 

[VGThuy]

I bet you with the advent of more objective sensors, if used on the current crop and past skaters, I bet the results would be eye-opening, even for those self-proclaimed experts at seeing URs. Now whether they’d admit it…

But I’d question whether those sensors would successfully objectively measure exactly what angle when the blade left the ice.

Also, I love how the article goes on and on and adopts an incredibly condescending and mean-spirited tone towards Vincent Zhou but doesn’t even at least do the Koola King/Tessa and Scott sekret baby blogger thing by providing a hundred gifs and jpgs per example to hammer their point home. But they did talk about his Lip for extra measure because they couldn’t kick him hard enough in the first 45 pages they wrote (but I think that pic underminded their argument so they knew better than to post more).

Either way skating is feeding into people’s obsession compulsion and it’s overemphasis on certain things is painting skaters as much worse than they are.

 

[Gris]

Also, I love how the article goes on and on and adopts an incredibly condescending and mean-spirited tone towards Vincent Zhou but doesn’t even at least do the Koola King/Tessa and Scott sekret baby blogger thing by providing a hundred gifs and jpgs per example to hammer their point home. But they did talk about his Lip for extra measure because they couldn’t kick him hard enough in the first 45 pages they wrote (but I think that pic underminded their argument so they knew better than to post more).

Either way skating is feeding into people’s obsession compulsion and it’s overemphasis on certain things is painting skaters as much worse than they are.

The author of this article is among the crazy Fanyu bunch on Twitter (who just wished "bad karma" on U. S. skaters) so it's not surprising at all. I do think the q thing needs to go though as it's very prone to be abused.