Plane and Blackhawk helicopter crash in Washington DC

[Vash01]

My sister has taken the direct SFO to DCA route for years on Alaska. (I took it myself back in 2023.) It's not that often though, maybe once a day, IIRC.



My sister also says nobody calls it Reagan, everyone she knows/works with still calls it National. Or DCA. Which tells you something about federal government employees' opinions about who the airport is named after...

That happens to many airports though. Nobody calls San Jose Minetta airport. Nobody calls Terminal 2 at Phoenix Barry Goldwater terminal. I think it’s easier to remember airports by their original names. Major exceptions JFK at NY and Logan at Boston. Overseas I do see many airports recognized as who they were Named after.

 

[once_upon]

Are you in KC Ks or KC Mo? Not that it matters. They are almost like one.

If you've ever driven in KC, you can literally cross state lines 4 times and never know which state you are in.
Wichita is ~ 2 hours away from KC. Depending on which suburbs you include

 

[ice coverage]

Thst happens to many airports though. Nobody calls San Jose Paneta airport. ...

Off topic, and point taken, but the San Jose airport is named after Norm MINETA -- former U.S. Secretary of Transportation and former Mayor of San Jose (among other positions).

History | San José Mineta Intl. Airport (SJC) | Bay Area, CA

Located in Silicon Valley, the San Jose Airport has a history stretching back to the year 1928. Learn more about SJC through the ages, and Norman Y. Mineta.

www.flysanjose.com

 

[Vash01]

Off topic, and point taken, but the San Jose airport is named after Norm MINETA -- former U.S. Secretary of Transportation and former Mayor of San Jose (among other positions).

History | San José Mineta Intl. Airport (SJC) | Bay Area, CA

Located in Silicon Valley, the San Jose Airport has a history stretching back to the year 1928. Learn more about SJC through the ages, and Norman Y. Mineta.

www.flysanjose.com

Oops! My bad. Will make the correction.

 

[Vash01]

If you've ever driven in KC, you can literally cross state lines 4 times and never know which state you are in.
Wichita is ~ 2 hours away from KC. Depending on which suburbs you include

I lived in Manhattan, Kansas. Both KCs and Wichita were within driving distance but I don’t remember how long. I never drove in KC. Someone else did.

 

[skatemomaz]

These may have been added in the last year, as was the flight from Wichita. Apparently, there was a lobby effort either by or to Congress to add additional routes & flights.

This very much feels like there are going to be multiple reasons why this tragedy happened and multiple oversights that may have prevented it.

Nonstop flights between DCA and PHX have been operating since at least 2002.

 

[once_upon]

You're lucky. There is a single exit - that is a dead end. Mud roads and back alley to find a way out. If I remember correctly, it's a access to a rail yard. There is no way to get back on the Interstate.

I have managed to exit on that exit almost every time I would travel to a specific hospital for training.

Then there's the exit that is the middle lanes of the interstate.

 

[Rob]

And the helicopter was flying at an altitude well above where they typically are in that area.

Every comment I have seen from someone who has piloted a Blackhawk cites this as the most plausible cause.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Putting this link here to keep the other one skater focused.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...ore-fatal-crash/ar-AA1y9qag?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Army Secretary nominee Daniel Driscoll said during a Senate hearing on Thursday that the crash may prompt the military to reconsider conducting training operations near the busy Washington, D.C., airspace.
"This seems to be preventable," Driscoll said. "I think we might need to look at where is an appropriate time to take training risk, and it may not be near an airport like Reagan."

Ya think? It took this to maybe realize that?

 

[Karen-W]

Putting this link here to keep the other one skater focused.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/othe...ore-fatal-crash/ar-AA1y9qag?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Ya think? It took this to maybe realize that?

I'm really quite shocked that these training/recertification flights were happening in such a congested airspace, but by the same token, I can't help wonder if they are necessary to maintain one's skills, but that's just me spitballing because I've never flown an airplane or helicopter in my life and probably haven't played a video/virtual game that requires piloting skills in a few decades.

 

[Mozart]

The whole thing is terrible. I watch the show air crash investigation (mayday), mentor pilot and listen to air crash podcasts and it never gets easier.

As well as the skaters, the mother of the first officer posted in r/flightradar asking if anyone knew whonthe crew were because her son flies for them and she posted that it was her son too much death

 

[Vash01]

The whole thing is terrible. I watch the show air crash investigation (mayday), mentor pilot and listen to air crash podcasts and it never gets easier.

As well as the skaters, the mother of the first officer posted in r/flightradar asking if anyone knew whonthe crew were because her son flies for them and she posted that it was her son too much death

The whole thing is terrible. I watch the show air crash investigation (mayday), mentor pilot and listen to air crash podcasts and it never gets easier.

As well as the skaters, the mother of the first officer posted in r/flightradar asking if anyone knew whonthe crew were because her son flies for them and she posted that it was her son too much death

WaPo article says 24 hours before this disaster a similar disaster was averted.

https://wapo.st/4gjh26j

 

[Karen-W]

The NTSB has recovered both of the black boxes from the plane. No word yet on the helicopter's black boxes.

 

[once_upon]

The NTSB has recovered both of the black boxes from the plane. No word yet on the helicopter's black boxes.

One commentator who is NBCs reporter for many aviation or transportation need said recovering the black boxes from the helicopter would be more difficult due to the upside down position in the water

 

[Karen-W]

One commentator who is NBCs reporter for many aviation or transportation need said recovering the black boxes from the helicopter would be more difficult due to the upside down position in the water

Yes, I read somewhere today that the helicopter was not only upside down, it was unstable and kept shifting above & below the water line. Completely unsafe to try and enter the helo at this time. I'm sure they'll manage to get it eventually, but it's going to take some time.

 

[once_upon]

We can always learn from air disasters to hopefully prevent another event like this one. A group of people should never be blamed for a tragedy as this.

In all my performance evaluation practices - we looked for the processes that contributed to the event, never at a class of people or even a single person.

When I look at some contributing factors,

• we have an airport with potentially too many flights for one airport with restricted airspace in flight patterns
• we had inadequate staffing of staffing ratios
• we have unusual flight clearance for a runway not often used
• potentially an inadequate staff in a military vehicle (one thing I heard in analysis)
• more simply put it is illogical to adhere to a theory that a DEI hire in anyway was responsible.

As far as I know, condemnation a group of people for the actions of one event, is not logical. Blaming a single person is not logical without data and even then, it's illogical to blame a single person's actions without more data.

 

[Karen-W]

We can always learn from air disasters to hopefully prevent another event like this one. A group of people should never be blamed for a tragedy as this.

In all my performance evaluation practices - we looked for the processes that contributed to the event, never at a class of people or even a single person.

When I look at some contributing factors,

• we have an airport with potentially too many flights for one airport with restricted airspace in flight patterns
• we had inadequate staffing of staffing ratios
• we have unusual flight clearance for a runway not often used
• potentially an inadequate staff in a military vehicle (one thing I heard in analysis)
• more simply put it is illogical to adhere to a theory that a DEI hire in anyway was responsible.

As far as I know, condemnation a group of people for the actions of one event, is not logical. Blaming a single person is not logical without data and even then, it's illogical to blame a single person's actions without more data.

You cannot draw the conclusion you make regarding DEI while acknowledging in the same post that there was an inadequate staffing ratio. The inadequate staffing may have been due to a DEI policy that prevented the FAA from hiring enough qualified candidates. But, any further discussion on this particular point belongs in PI.

Also, you missed the information that the helicopter may have been flying higher than it was supposed to be for the route it was on.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

.................more simply put it is illogical to adhere to a theory that a DEI hire in anyway was responsible.............


As far as I know, condemnation a group of people for the actions of one event, is not logical. Blaming a single person is not logical without data and even then, it's illogical to blame a single person's actions without more data.

That's just our head of state trying to ruffle feathers. That's his whole schtick. Having said that, I wouldn't mind knowing who was in the left seat of the Black Hawk and not remaining below 200 feet. Or was there an instructor in the right seat not being attentive enough?

 

[skategal]

You cannot draw the conclusion you make regarding DEI while acknowledging in the same post that there was an inadequate staffing ratio. The inadequate staffing may have been due to a DEI policy that prevented the FAA from hiring enough qualified candidates. But, any further discussion on this particular point belongs in PI.

We have DEI hiring policies where I work and anytime there are shortages in a particular area you don't have to follow the policy and can hire whoever you want that has the qualifications if you have the budget.

Usually short staffed means budget cuts or no increase in budget to deal with increase in work load and management wouldn't allow hiring to happen. Or not enough people being trained in institutions to be hired (we see this with medical staff in Canada.)

I suspect similar in this case.

 

[Rob]

2 new very clear videos of the accident on CNN. Very horrifying. https://www.cnn.com

 

[Johnny_Fever]

2 new very clear videos of the accident on CNN. Very horrifying. https://www.cnn.com

The first video suggests that the two aircraft approached at right angles to each other. That means the CRJ700 would have only been visible out of the Black Hawk's left side window. Air accident YouTuber Juan Browne mentioned that night-vision goggles restrict your peripheral vision. It's like looking though paper towel tubes. If you're looking straight ahead, that would make it hard to notice a jet approaching rapidly from your left.

 

[once_upon]

You cannot draw the conclusion you make regarding DEI while acknowledging in the same post that there was an inadequate staffing ratio. The inadequate staffing may have been due to a DEI policy that prevented the FAA from hiring enough qualified candidates. But, any further discussion on this particular point belongs in PI.

Also, you missed the information that the helicopter may have been flying higher than it was supposed to be for the route it was on.

The inadequate staffing may or may not be associated with DEI. Inadequate staffing may be a result of someone calling in ill or a recent resignation without the appropriate approval process for new hire. Lack of time post a position. Lack of someone with the appropriate certifications required I mean we couldn't hire an RN who did not have the required license regardless of any DEI. Or it could have been an DEI issue. Until all data is studied it is inappropriate to jump there

It has been reported the pilot of the helicopter was flying too high per protocol - but until the analysis of all data, they cannot make a determination that was a contributing factor or THE reason

 

[Karen-W]

The inadequate staffing may or may not be associated with DEI. Inadequate staffing may be a result of someone calling in ill or a recent resignation without the appropriate approval process for new hire. Lack of time post a position. Lack of someone with the appropriate certifications required I mean we couldn't hire an RN who did not have the required license regardless of any DEI. Or it could have been an DEI issue. Until all data is studied it is inappropriate to jump there

I don't disagree, but I was just saying that we don't have sufficient information yet to rule out the idea that DEI hiring policies may have been a factor (though I don't think it was the primary one, just that it may have been a contributor).

It has been reported the pilot of the helicopter was flying too high per protocol - but until the analysis of all data, they cannot make a determination that was a contributing factor or THE reason

Well, based on everything that has been shared in the news, I think this is going to be a multi-factor failure.

 

[once_upon]

Everyone in any similar situation wants to name a single or multiple groups for a significant air causality. It's our nature. It makes us feel vindicated in some small manner.

Yes we have some video evidence - but the cause of improper location in flight patterns does not provide the whole picture of the incident.

 

[once_upon]

And I may not have said clear enough - we can not rule out a DEI issue or not until we have data

In my opinion it was unconscionable for a president of a large country to jump to that conclusion without knowing the facts

 

[nlloyd]

And I may not have said clear enough - we can not rule out a DEI issue or not until we have data

In my opinion it was unconscionable for a president of a large country to jump to that conclusion without knowing the facts

Yes, and I hope that if this is a false accusation, the ATC will take Trump to court. This kind of accusation makes people of colour very vulnerable. They are almost always represented as not being fully qualified for their jobs and/or incapable of doing them properly, regardless of whether or not they are a DEI hire. Even if someone is a DEI hire they are likely well qualified to do the job and/or have been trained up to do it.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

Everyone in any similar situation wants to name a single or multiple groups for a significant air causality. It's our nature. It makes us feel vindicated in some small manner.

Yes we have some video evidence - but the cause of improper location in flight patterns does not provide the whole picture of the incident.

What's wrong with speculation, and what makes you think we're singling people out? I'm not after vindication. Don't project your own propensities upon others.

 

[DORISPULASKI]

You can't rule out illness being a factor in the lack of staff in air traffic too quickly either, until the facts come out. Right now Norovirus is very prevalent here on the East Coast, and it is known for the lack of warning it gives the patient.

I caught it earlier this month. I agreed to walk with friends at 8:30 am and at 9:30 am I was vomiting.

 

[Johnny_Fever]

A little more info. Someone suggested a bigger Black Hawk crew would have been appropriate in those conditions, with lookouts responsible for rearward (or side?) vision. Night vision goggles inhibit depth perception, so you can't necessarily tell if you've exceeded 200 feet. Also, when the Black Hawk crew acknowledged that they saw the plane, they might have been talking about the wrong plane. There was another jet in their forward field of vision.

 

[dewey]

A little more info. Someone suggested a bigger Black Hawk crew would have been appropriate in those conditions, with lookouts responsible for rearward (or side?) vision. Night vision goggles inhibit depth perception, so you can't necessarily tell if you've exceeded 200 feet. Also, when the Black Hawk crew acknowledged that they saw the plane, they might have been talking about the wrong plane. There was another jet in their forward field of vision.

A couple of retired Army guys were speculating at work yesterday that they were using NVGs. They said it would be easy to get disoriented and lose situational awareness.