Paul and Islam: "No Matter What"

[Hot Air & Ice]

Sounds like there is trouble in paradise. Alex was seen crying at CN Nationals Exhibition practice and then they withdrew from participation. SK8Canada isn't going to like not participating in their Annual National Showcase.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Oh man! These two need a break.

 

[Marta24]

Sigh, these two have so much talent and it seems like it`s the right time for them having a breakthrough, but it`s just not happening

Considering last season`s disappointing results, I understand why they changed coaches, but I wish they would have gone instead to someone else, for example Platov. Dubreuil/Lauzon are amazing coaches, but the problem is that P/I seem to be stuck in that lyrical corner and IMO they need better material.

Maybe the right thing for them to do is to reinvent themselves, to do something totally out-of-the-box for next season, something people would never expect from them.

 

[princeton123]

Sounds like there is trouble in paradise. Alex was seen crying at CN Nationals Exhibition practice and then they withdrew from participation. SK8Canada isn't going to like not participating in their Annual National Showcase.

Someone said Mitch was sick which is why they didn't do the gala. Not sure where the Alex crying part comes in.

 

[wickedwitch]

Considering last season`s disappointing results, I understand why they changed coaches, but I wish they would have gone instead to someone else, for example Platov. Dubreuil/Lauzon are amazing coaches, but the problem is that P/I seem to be stuck in that lyrical corner and IMO they need better material.

That decision made no sense to me. D/L were also the ones who gave them that ineffective FD last season.

 

[centerpt1]

I love this team so much- I sure hope they can figure out how to turn potential into actual. Not sure D/L was the right move for them.

 

[lavenderblue]

I didn't feel good about the move when it was announced, but was willing to set aside my other concerns about Gadbois to at least wait and see if it perhaps helped them with Skate Canada alone to be training in Canada, after all the pushing they were doing last year about having home training camps. Then comes the stereotypical ultra-Dubreuil free dance -- not at all what they needed strategically -- and then, well, we saw how it all turned out; even without the lift error, P/O's FD score before theirs (and the GOE disparity between the teams even before P/I's mistake) sent a pretty strong message that P/I hadn't curried any significant favor with this move. I don't see things improving if they stick around there.

It's very frustrating because they've shown the times they can be brilliant. It's in their capacity. D/L are not bringing that out of them no matter how much P/I insisted in early Nats interviews that it was happening like it never had before.

 

[Katha]

When I first saw the FD D/L had given them I got angry on their behalf. Talk about a half-assed, phoned in mess. That it went way too far in the smooth and soft direction for a team that needs to find more identity and a bit of an edge to their skating is one thing, but as a piece of choreography it's crap. There's nothing interesting going on, there are no memorable moves, no particular transitions, no spectacular elements, the theme is not clear and not well executed, the structure is suspect. Everything about it is unconvincing. The hatchet job D/L did on that program and consequently on P/I is absolutely unforgivable IMO.

 

[MarieM]

The choreography is ok IMO. What they need is to find it in themselves. There is nothing anyone can do if they can't define WHO they are. And it's not the job of their coach, it's theirs. As long as they won't get that, they'll suffer the V&M clone syndrom. They should go and find themselves another look.

 

[Katha]

Oh, oh. I have to correct myself, there is one "highlight move" in the FD: That ghastly bird flapping they have Alexandra do on the lyric "wings". Seriously cringeworthy and indulging in all of D/L's worst kitsch tendencies.

In general, yeah they have trouble finding their own voice. But a coaching team is there to give support and ideas of where they want to go stylistically, what might help them in competition. Not make them the next cookie cutter Montreal team doing twinkly music and being smooth. People are always rightly ragging on Marina and Igor for the sameness of some of their programs, but D/L are starting to do the same.

 

[MarieM]

A coaching team can do nothing if said team doesn't voice anything. I know how Pascale, Angelika, Romain and Marie France work. It only works if skaters do have a voice. If they don't, you see nothing.

 

[lavenderblue]

I think this point is better made here than in the other P/I thread currently underway, but the team who showed up for Shall We Dance on Ice is not the team who's been competing this season. Still waiting on more uploads, but I watched the show and these two shorter clips still give a decent idea of things:

Disco
Latin

I know they struggle far more as competitors than as skaters, but they could be showing a lot more spirit than they have been recently. They need choreographers who grasp that and coaches who care enough to push them and show them to best advantage -- and I don't think that's the concern of their current coaching staff.

 

[Alilou]

I want them to find their "Fix You"!

 

[aftershocks]

... I know they struggle far more as competitors than as skaters, but they could be showing a lot more spirit than they have been recently. They need choreographers who grasp that and coaches who care enough to push them and show them to best advantage -- and I don't think that's the concern of their current coaching staff.

Why do you say it's not the concern of their current coaching staff? There would have been no reason for P/I to be accepted in Montreal if Dubreuil/Lauzon did not think they could help them. Sometimes it takes time for things to come together and to find the right groove. It doesn't work out the same way for everyone.

I agree with @MarieM's post #701, and I said something similar in the other thread that discusses P/I's options going forward. P/I really need to take a lead role in figuring out their on-ice identities together, and they seemingly need to reexamine their on-ice connection. @princeton123 said something very apt in the other thread about the need for P/I to better contrast their similar soft, delicate, and restrained qualities. They are both very attractive, appealing and elegant together but something is missing. And obviously, when a team struggles their confidence takes a huge hit which can further throw them off-balance and slow their growth and momentum.

That mistake on the lift was so unfortunate at Canadian Nationals in the FD. P/I were definitely on course to place third and make the World team. But with the competition from P/O being quite close, that one slight but obvious mistake was enough to have P/I losing out by percentage points. I think right now that P/I are a better and more experienced team than P/O, but P/O have a very good FD, and P/I do not have an FD that stands out and shows them off to their best. P/I need to learn from this set-back, as does everyone who hits rough patches. It's how P/I respond to what happened that will make the difference for them going forward.

 

[lavenderblue]

P/I put themselves into a situation of training alongside a Canadian team who finished ahead of them in the free dance at 2015 Nats. P/I did choreographic work with D/L as long ago as 2010 (and with Haguenauer in 2009 and 2011), but P/O are a team who’ve trained full-time with the D/L-Denis crew since they were juniors in 2010; they were given D/L hand-me-down music to skate to and D/L hand-me-down elements then and the relationship has generally come across as close. I actually do think it’s possible for coaches to manage training potential rivals, but I think there’s also a bit of a perhaps natural disparity in the level of investment that might be present.

Dubreuil has also said, more than once I believe, that one of the reasons they were motivated to bring Hubbell/Donohue into the fold is the fact that they have no other American students, so it cuts down on intra-rink competition. Maybe this idea was raised by reporters and she merely offered what they wanted, but its emphasis in quotes from both Dubreuil and H/D makes me wonder how she feels, exactly, about having Canadian teams in close competition with each other.

I’m not a fan of Dubreuil and Lauzon’s choreographic style, admittedly. But I also think it does P/I no favors and I don’t anticipate D/L’s vocabulary expanding so much in the next few months that another FD from them will be beneficial. P/I did a lot of work that I loved or greatly enjoyed with choreographers like Krylova & Camerlengo and Kelly Johnson. There was a greater apparent effort to help them grow their power, or their comfort with outward performance and expression, or with different emotional modes – W.E., the paso doble, Piaf, some solid material that came from work with these parties, and all of it respectably complex as skating material. ("In Your Eyes" was also Johnson’s, taking off from components of Jeff Buttle’s exhibition.) As much as people enjoy some of D/L’s other, non-P/I work – it’s not the type of material that on P/I would encourage anyone to see them in some new light. It’s a lot of variations on lyrical and I can only imagine all the “They can’t skate anything else!!” it would provoke. By their nature, they actually do better when forced out of the softer comfort zone.

 

[aftershocks]

Well, certainly training with a rival team in P/O could present more of a challenge for P/I, particularly at the current vulnerable stage P/I are in. Hopefully, Alex/Mitch will work on building their strengths and finding their authentic selves, as well as reexamining their style and their dynamic on the ice. They need to skate to something that is powerful and motivating for them.

Here's the last FD group at Canadian Nationals with P/I going right after P/O who received their highest ever scores for Bridge Over Troubled Waters FD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grz3tQ1j40

 

[arakwafan2006]

Are all of you children? I'm only asking because of all the finger pointing you guys are doing. Any adult with the ability to decision make and think critically would pose a more logical question such as " why isn't this team seeking to own and manufacture their own style" or " why aren't they owning the material, musical selections etc. themselves?" The Shibs did and look what happened. They have arguably one of the the best choreographers in Ice Dance as their head coach and went outside for help. They owned it. That is another reason they skate that free dance with so much commitment, they're proud!!!! What they had wasn't working, they had a definitive point of view and found... Let's call Peter a translator to help them articulate their style.

When I read people complaining or whining about choreography and music etc. like the skaters had a gun put to their head isn't are punished by death if they don't skate to their material I t pisses me off. At a point , skaters are responsible for their own work. Often , that's why skaters are disconnected from the material, they aren't invested in it and that's how it comes across. Also, maybe the reason they went to D&L is because THEY LIKE IT!!!!!. it's their career guys. If they are unhappy and remain unhappy, that's on them.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Don't lump all posters together @arakwafan2006. There are posters in this and other pertinent threads in Skip who have already voiced the same as what you are saying. It is up to Alex and Mitch to take the lead in overcoming their challenges. And it is not the fault of Dubreuil/ Lauzon for the difficulties Alex and Mitch have been facing.

Alex/Mitch can use failing to make the World team this season to their advantage. It's up to Alex and Mitch to chart their own course, and to decide how they will respond to this latest setback.

 

[arakwafan2006]

^^ Don't lump all posters together @arakwafan2006. There are posters in this and other pertinent threads in Skip who have already voiced the same as what you are saying. It is up to Alex and Mitch to take the lead in overcoming their challenges. And it is not the fault of Dubreuil/ Lauzon for the difficulties Alex and Mitch have been facing.

Alex/Mitch can use failing to make the World team this season to their advantage. It's up to Alex and Mitch to chart their own course, and to decide how they will respond to this latest setback.

Their biggest challenge is that they aren't as good as the teams ahead of them just yet. As someone who has seen them practice and skate in person on the ice with stronger teams, it's glaring! I think that the one tree is this missed lift which is irrelevant compared to the forest. They truly need to grow their skating skills and power. Mitch is so slight that there's only so much power he's capable of. Their look as a team to me is one of a kind and it's the good kind. Still, I believe they have a whole hell of a lot of work to do.

I'm not recommending Natalia and Gennadi as coaches but I am recommending ( as if I have the power to do so lol) them addressing their weaknesses head on like Tanith and Ben did. Choreographing around a weakness, choosing music that does not stretch a team are only advisable with a team that has mastered so much until they don't " need" another competency to master. I still think this team is developmental and their selections should challenge them
To expand. Part of that expansion process is it looking bad. The other side is closing the gap that's there between teams. Alex and Mitch aesthetically are easier for me to watch than Piper and Paul but the latter team has the skill. Alex and Mitch have a lot of work to do and frankly , they are in capable hands.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep I personally don't think that training with a rival Canadian team means they shouldn't have chosen Dubreuil/Lauzon, and I disagree with those claiming that Dubreuil/Lauzon aren't trying to help P/I. I personally have not heard M-F Dubreuil being specifically interviewed re her thoughts on P/I or on their training process and what they are trying to work with them on to improve their skills. Training with P/O can serve as a strong motivating factor. It depends on how P/I deal with the challenge.

I think @princeton123 made a good observation re the need for Mitch to focus on presenting a more powerful contrasting persona on the ice that would provide more spark and impact, and more effectively show off Alex's delicate femininity. It reminds me how M-FD had said in an interview that she felt one of the keys to helping Papa/Ciz improve was having Guillaume become more of a man than a boy in how he presented himself on the ice. The same seems true for Mitch, however it may not be that simple since as you say Mitch has a slighter frame and a more androgynous appearance.

I agree that P/I have a lot to work on to further develop their skills. They became partners in 2009, so I think that is one reason why their development as a team has been slower. But also the injuries and setbacks they have incurred contributed to slowing their development. It is up to them to figure out what they need to do to improve and to gain more confidence in themselves and in their direction, program choices and training strategies. Weren't P/I initially trained by Mitch's father?

 

[MarieM]

I still maintain my point: I don't know who they are and what their vision of ice dance is. Without a clear vision of what they WANT to showcase, noone can help them.

And they have to become them, not continue on that stupid idea of being V&M clones. It has never worked before and will never ever work.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Who has characterized P/I as V/M clones? I don't see them that way at all, despite similar dark looks and Alex's/ Tessa's ballet backgrounds. Mitch and Scott are completely different in physique and personality. The dynamic between the two teams is also very different. Tessa seems to have a more fiery personality that is not quite as soft and delicate as Alex's appears to be. Mitch and Alex actually seem more brotherly/sisterly while Tessa and Scott always seemed to present a more romantic/ flirtatious vibe even though they were never in a romantic relationship off the ice.

ITA that P/I need to define a clear vision of who they are, what motivates them, and how they wish to be perceived. If they don't know, the audience and judges certainly won't and don't know either. That said, I agree with those who feel P/I still have untapped potential.

 

[Rafter]

So it's been reported in the V/M coming back thread that Islam is retiring and Paul will be looking for a new partner. Has anyone else heard this?

 

[sap5]

So does anyone want to discuss P/I's new SD and FD?

 

[princeton123]

SD - one of their best. Alex is great, but Mitch (as always) needs to project out way more.

FD - like just about every other FD they've ever done. Would it kill them to take a risk and branch out once in a while? They don't have anything to lose, so why play it so boringly safe?

 

[chapis]

I like the SD
the FD, terrible. Please change.

 

[ichiro]

SD - for me they managed to make the music zzzz.

FD - typical Montreal smultzy dance. Comma inducing program actually works for them. WISH they'd skate to something like W. E or in your eyes again.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Does anyone have a link to the free dance? I can't find it.

The short dance, that is beneath them. To me, it was a beginners version of Big spender. So much more character development needed and choreography.

 

[lauravvv]

Does anyone have a link to the free dance? I can't find it.

It's blocked on YouTube for some reason (at least for me here in Latvia, and, obviously, for you too). Thankfully someone has put it up on Dailymotion - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x...hell-islam-can-fd-2016-us-int-l-classic_sport.

 

[Andora]

Their SD doesn't bother me - they always play it safe but usually can skate it well. But their FD is soooooo disappointing. It's a lovely program, but they've done it 100 times, it feels like. And the jarring music cut towards the end is highly annoying.

I love this team, but what a let down.