Papadakis/Cizeron: Latin dances always look "cheap and cliche"

[sap5]

touché, and point taken.

I just don't think Papadakis and Cizeron were throwing shade at Tessa and Scott, and I also love the beach and pina coladas for relaxing. You're all going to drive yourself nuts with the over an interview comment, and we still have like 4 months until we even know team Montreals music. The Olympic season is all about pacing yourself, don't waste it all on some Latin dances comment being blown out of proportion.

I think most of the people in the thread just want to discuss different perspectives on ice dance, which is a fine way to bide time over the off-season. I'm all for good dance discussion. Hopefully those who can't chill out know where to grab some pina coladas, though.

 

[Karpenko]

Yeah, hopefully they will. it's really not worth it to care so much that you'll take a comment so far out of context. Also a lot of the people engaging in the discussion, and taking things out of context, are hardcore Virtue/Moir and Shibutani/Shibutani fans, which happen to be Papadakis & Cizeron's biggest competition.

So maybe I'm not the only one in need of even if it's just a discussion about "ice dance perspectives", and not in reality a way to put Gaby/Guillaume in check over a comment being blown out of proportion.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm just happy to see the Shibs mentioned as competition. Afraid people forgot about them,

 

[kittysk8ts]

When I first read the interview with G & G, I did in fact bristle slightly at their opinions on Latin music and the words "cheap" and "cliché". However, they certainly are entitled to their opinions and as 2x World Champions, many people are in fact interested in those opinions. We all know that when a skater/team offers an opinion on anything, there are those who will disagree. I also wonder if there is a little of what they said/meant that was "lost in translation". Perhaps had they been offering this opinion in their own language it would have been less indelicate? I would also point out that they are not the first and won't be the last to comment on the restrictions of the SD and the challenge of putting together something cohesive. To me they really do not seem like the type of people to disrespect their competitors or anyone at all for that matter.

Anyway, I loved the CD and am just happy there is still a version of it via the SD!

 

[Karpenko]

Also I noticed this yesterday, is it referring to the interview being discussed here?
https://twitter.com/gabriellapks/status/864991550752923648

She seems a bit miffed that something was taken out of context.. too bad you can't redo an interview, bad choice of words on her part I agree, but maybe something we're arguing about here isn't even accurate in the first place?

 

[ballettmaus]

That's what I love about ice dance - that a good ice dancer has to be able to do Latin, quickstep, waltz, jive, contemporary, ballet, and so on during their career, and do them well. Even professional ballroom dancers specialize in either Latin or standard, so that makes good ice dancers all the more impressive.

They have to be able to do it yes. Just like a ballet dancer has to be able to do contemporary and jazz dance. And I'm sure ballroom dancers and Latin dancers do the other dance style, too, and probably some ballet as well. And every ice dancer has to dance each style in the SD.
But, just because you have to be able to do it doesn't mean that you have to be good at it. As a matter of fact, I think it's unreasonable to expect or think that everyone is equally good at everything. That is impossible. Every single person has strength and weaknesses.

Ice dancers are no different. Some are better in some dance styles, others are better in others. Every dancer has to do the mandatory style in the SD. But I don't see any reason why you shouldn't choose to do the style that you know you do best in the free dance. As has been pointed out, no one would expect a ballet dancer to dance tap. A dancer chooses what they do best to earn their money. Why shouldn't an ice dancer choose to do what they do best in order to earn their medals?

As we know from videos posted, P/C do explore other dance styles off ice. They do other dance styles in the SD. And then, in the FD, they choose the style they excell at. Some might find it boring, some ice dancers might like to explore. They don't. And I don't see any reason why they should. Why choose to do something that you're not as good at, that you don't feel comfortable with and lose a medal just so that you say you've done a different style? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[sap5]

Also I noticed this yesterday, is it referring to the interview being discussed here?
https://twitter.com/gabriellapks/status/864991550752923648

She seems a bit miffed that something was taken out of context.. too bad you can't redo an interview, bad choice of words on her part I agree, but maybe something we're arguing about here isn't even accurate in the first place?

She's talking about some website that only put up that comment, and excised the rest of the inside skating article. TSL apparently linked to this questionable website. I believe the TSL link has since been taken down.

 

[sap5]

As we know from videos posted, P/C do explore other dance styles off ice. They do other dance styles in the SD. And then, in the FD, they choose the style they excell at. Some might find it boring, some ice dancers might like to explore. They don't. And I don't see any reason why they should. Why choose to do something that you're not as good at, that you don't feel comfortable with and lose a medal just so that you say you've done a different style? That makes absolutely no sense.

So what do we think if a dance team chose to do the same style every year in the FD?

 

[ballettmaus]

So what do we think if a dance team chose to do the same style every year in the FD?

I don't know what you think But I adore P/C's FDs. And I loved D/W's and A/P's dramatic styles. And I love V/M's lyrical FDs. They are such smooth skaters that I find that these FDs just look spectacular on them.
I think that you can explore within your preferred style and make it different every year. I think that all of the skaters mentioned above have managed to do different FDs within their style (V/M have done different styles but the lyrical ones they have done were one style, different dances).
I think what matters the most is that you stay true to yourself and don't try to be someone or something you're not just because it's expected. If you want to do it's fine. If you don't, then I think that's fine, too. But just because you don't do something doesn't mean you couldn't. It just means you're the most comfortable with what you do and that you like it best and because of that, it's probably also what you do best.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

What if Virtue and Moir don't like polka, or jazz, or the Shibs don't like quickstep or swing, but just decided not to say it?

This is an interesting article to revisit about when the Yankee Polka was announced. Neither Scott or Charlie seemed like fans. Madison Hubbell's concerns feel a bit less inflammatory since they based on physical limitations. (I don't have a problem with Scott or Charlie's opinions fwiw, but maybe some might) Meryl expressed that the Rumba could be boring. Teams do express their opinions!

I think cheap and cliche are the words so many are offended by here. When I first read this article I felt there would be some negative backlash but in a lot of ways they are only speaking concerns or objections many dance fans themselves have expressed in the past. I do agree something might be lost in translation and that it's also important to remember this interview was at Worlds after the Gala before they really had a chance to start working on their SD. These are impressions they had that might change as they work within the structure for the SD next year.

 

[snoopy]

I think cheap and cliche are the words so many are offended by here.

I agree with this and calling latin dance cheap and cliché is also little self serving on their part. "Oh what WE do is high art but all those other dances are lame."

 

[DreamsofBliss]

I agree with this and calling latin dance cheap and cliché is also little self serving on their part. "Oh what WE do is high art but all those other dances are lame."

I mean yes I suppose if that's the opinion you already have of them than yes it would reinforce that.

 

[Seerek]

If there is building momentum in the opinions from younger demographics (dancers and audiences alike) that certain dances are considered too old-fashioned or clichéd, I suspect the short dance will at the very least eliminate the CD portion within 1-2 Olympic cycles, and likely relax the OD portion as well.

 

[princeton123]

If I remember correctly, Scott Moir did say one year that he 'wasn't looking forward to polka'. But that's different than saying 'polka dances always look cheap and cliche and doesn't really qualify as ice dance'.

If there is building momentum in the opinions from younger demographics (dancers and audiences alike) that certain dances are considered too old-fashioned or clichéd, I suspect the short dance will at the very least eliminate the CD portion within 1-2 Olympic cycles, and likely relax the OD portion as well.

What? Some people might have issues with the compulsory pattern breaking the flow of the short dance, but no one's seriously complained about it before. Until now, I guess. I would think most people would understand the imperative of needing a technical portion to truly be able to compare skating skills between the teams. Personally, the short dance is one of my favorite events precisely because there's a prescribed rhythm and watching people riff on that and come up with completely different ideas is fun and exciting.

 

[starrynight]

But if the compulsory dance aspects are removed from ice dance than what is it? A place for the left overs from singles who can't jump and now can't dance to compulsory patterns and rhythms?

The discipline would become obsolete.

 

[VGThuy]

Removing compulsory/pattern dances and loosening up the Rhythm requirements even more than it already has? This thread is certainly getting depressing for me.

 

[lynnmacd5]

This discipline is enough subjective now , if they eliminate the pattern and required elements, ice dance would be basically a popularity contest.

agree! If they keep elimiting them might as well make it a voting system like DWTS and have all the popular (shit skaters) win.
They need to bring back the CD!!!!

 

[starrynight]

It makes me think of how you explain ice dance to people who don't watch much skating.

Where are the jumps and throws, they ask. And you say: there aren't any because it's like ballroom dancing on ice. They do dances like Latin or waltzes.

People get that and understand where it belongs- rather than just writing it off as boring skating with no jumps or throws. So I think that the ballroom roots of ice dance are so very important and I am quite wary of any push to try to remove that aspect from the discipline.

 

[sap5]

People get that and understand where it belongs- rather than just writing it off as boring skating with no jumps or throws.

But will the audience really just write it off as boring skating? I mean look at the reaction at the end of PC's FD at Worlds https://media.giphy.com/media/V6FATlFSSndle/giphy.gif

That gif makes me lol every time.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

If I remember correctly, Scott Moir did say one year that he 'wasn't looking forward to polka'. But that's different than saying 'polka dances always look cheap and cliche and doesn't really qualify as ice dance'.

I linked to his words above and here they are:
I think it will be a real challenge to draw people and get people interested in ice dance with everyone doing the Yankee Polka
Now imagine English wasn't his first language and you weren't his huge fan and he said something like It's going to be hard to get anyone to like ice dance when we're all doing Yankee Polka (or any other dance tbh)!
Charlie went so far as to call the music annoying!
I think if people set aside their dislike of PC and their offense at the use of the words cliche and cheap with a little bit of understanding that English isn't the first language of anyone in this interview AFAIK, a lot of what they're saying is what people have already said a lot themselves. That the movement of floor dance is different to ice dance and that it's hard to make dances that look like floor dances on the ice.

 

[Dobre]

One hugely positive aspect of Latin music, IMO, is that it is a living & breathing genre. Compare it to many of the traditional ballroom dances & these musical styles are now dated/associated with specific eras/or relegated to smaller niche markets. But not Latin music.

When I went to central Spain (which was quite a while ago & may certainly not be the case anymore), all the popular music playing on the streets/in the shops/etc. was in English & coming from Britain or the U.S.

Not the case in Mexico.

Latin music is created & blasted over radio waves, car stereos, & played everywhere. Every day. Traditional Latin music, pop latin music, music from different cultures & countries. It is one of the richest aspects of Latin culture--something people are very proud of and for good reason.

 

[Zazy]

I don't think P/C's comments are a big deal on their own. But right now they are a great ice dance team with an extremely limited range. And from their comments in various interviews, it sounds like they have no interest in expanding their range and think "true art/ice dance" should revolve around what they're good at and reject what they struggle with. Which, fair enough, that's smart politicking and if they dominate ice dance for a long time, it will most likely become what they want it to be. It's already half-way there.

And then the transformation of ice dance into pairs-lite will be complete.

 

[Twilight1]

Which if that happens- I will just watch Men's, Pairs and maybe Ladies.

I watch dance because it is dance not because it is So You Think You Can Contemporary

 

[umhermione]

After reading everyone's thoughts, where I've landed is simple:

Papadakis and Cizeron don't like the Latin SD because they know they won't be good at it. Would you like something you're not good at?

This extemporaneous argument about what ice dance is "supposed" to be is irrelevant to me. People have different philosophies about it. Of course their philosophy would be geared toward what they're good at.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Ya they did. Unlike P&C, they were able to do more than one style in their competitive career as well.

I used to really like P&C but lately... not so much.

It's funny since V/M are trying to copy P/C styles in their free dances now... Everyone is, actually.

I have to agree with her. You can't really do batucadas, voltas, botafogos (and those are just samba steps, not to mention the other styles) etc. on the ice without them looking like a disaster... Don't even want to go there with the "tangos" V/M and D/W tried to do in the compulsory dances. A MESS.

And I also don't get the outrage at her opinion on the music. If it sounds all the same to her, so what? You can still have an APPRECIATION for a genre (or anything) without liking it...

 

[bbkenn]

It's funny since V/M are trying to copy P/C styles in their free dances now... Everyone is, actually.

 

[MAXSwagg]

 

[Asli]

Gabriella: I’m not a big fan of Latin for skating. I love Latin dances, I love watching Latin dances, on the floor. But on the ice… I think it’s such a different dynamic in the body that cannot really be translated on the ice, so it’s always gonna look kind of… cheap…

I agree with Guillaume that most Latin dances don't have the flowing movement structure that lends itself naturally to ice dance. All except for rhumba have a saccadic, sort of jerky style that seems difficult to translate onto the ice. Maybe that's why most couples look the most "Latin" during that start/end and the pauses. I still enjoy Latin dances on ice though and the rhumba always looks great.

I disagree with him that ice dancers aren't supposed to be ballroom dancers. The short dance is all about ballroom dance so this is a requirement for them.

Of course Papadakis and Cizeron have already done a Latin dance during their junior years. Their rhumba was lovely. Juniors were required to do two sequences of the Cha Cha Congelado and that doesn't leave any time to extend the cha cha, however they do skate it extremely well so early in the season and they look good tiffing it at the end!

2011 Baltic Cup

 

[lauravvv]

It's funny since V/M are trying to copy P/C styles in their free dances now... Everyone is, actually.

V/M are not trying to copy anything. You forget that it's not just P/C's style, it's Dubreuil's style in which she choreographs for all her teams. P/C also had a different style before going to Dubreuil/Lauzon. Besides, as for V/M, they had several exhibition programs in a similar (lyrical contemporary) style before their latest FD. They had the first of those exhibitions even before the 2013/2014 season (skating it in the spring and summer shows) - that is, before P/C acquired that style.

 

[Twilight1]

It's funny since V/M are trying to copy P/C styles in their free dances now... Everyone is, actually.

I have to agree with her. You can't really do batucadas, voltas, botafogos (and those are just samba steps, not to mention the other styles) etc. on the ice without them looking like a disaster... Don't even want to go there with the "tangos" V/M and D/W tried to do in the compulsory dances. A MESS.

And I also don't get the outrage at her opinion on the music. If it sounds all the same to her, so what? You can still have an APPRECIATION for a genre (or anything) without liking it...

Always kills me when I can read howa skater can trash something about their sport but GAWD FORBID, a fan of that discipline for almost 30 years can't have an opinion about it.

Sorry but IMO, that opinion is flocked up.