Papadakis/Cizeron: Latin dances always look "cheap and cliche"

Karpenko said:
Maybe you'll come to terms with your extreme black and white thinking one day, but the reality here is they said they don't necessarily prefer one certain style of dance on the ice.

For whatever reason, you've taken that comment soooo far out of context (they only want to do one style? :huh: ) and have become sooo :rolleyes: by it that you've decided that they only want to do one style of dance, and competing anything other than their "one style" FD isn't what they want to do in their career, AND you're projecting your own biased view of their style onto them based on one comment about Latin dances on the ice?

Just because they don't care for it doesn't mean they can't end up with one of the best SD's next year does it? Or do you already know their music? Some of you can't wait to pounce on the material we haven't even seen yet, and you're using these comments in this interview as the bait.

Care to come up for air and see the reality of the situation here? You might realize you went a bit overboard with the generalizations, while you're trying to put other people in check. The irony there is hilarious. ;)

Good lord :lynch: This season we are going to need an exorcist. :scream:

*chants to self* Love them both, love them both, love them both... no daggers need to be thrown at V/M, ever, even if their fans drive you crazy, love them both, love them both... (and I'm relaxed again)
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You probably should stay away from all the skating threads in this off season, Karpenko.
 
teacakes said:
Lol I thought this was one of those spoof threads. :rofl:
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Seriously.

I like Latin dances. They're fun. Maybe they're not totally "authentic," but what ice dances really are?? I mean, when ice dancers do a waltz, I don't think they're doing the exact waltz movements you would see on the floor, either (they do some of the same moves, but it's clearly adapted somewhat to the ice). Same with foxtrot and quickstep, I'm sure. everything has to be adapted to the ice, it's a different medium, it's just what it is. I don't see how Latin is that different from other rhythms in this regard. I sure wouldn't mind seeing some more authentic Latins (whatever that looks like--links?), but as people have pointed out, it's not like the dancers aren't trying, many are working with well-known off-ice Latin/ballroom dancers.

I find these comments from P/C rather interesting, since they just did Lindy Hop this year, which I think is generally considered one of the most difficult swing-type dances to put on the ice.
 
Dolore said:
Not sure what this has to do with VM fans because it's not only them that call PC's programs one note. Various commentators and former ice dancers have also pointed it out. But why bother with what they have to say when you can get a dig at VM fans, right? Believe it or not but some people's opinions aren't clouded by which team's style they prefer.
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It's easy to hide behind the opinions of others, and even easier to ignore the likelihood that bias clouds those opinions too.

The claim that the music for their last three FDs is similar is absurd. Mozart, To Build a Home, Stillness & Oddudua are completely different genres and styles. The fact that you're trying to compare a baroque piece to an orchestral ballad is farcical on its face.

As someone who loves both V&M and P&C, these fan wars are getting absurd. They're clearly the two best teams out there right now, perhaps two of the best ever. Why are some wasting time attacking P&C for an opinion instead of just discussing it like others are? How far some are taking this is so ridiculous.
 
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Dolore said:
Not sure what this has to do with VM fans because it's not only them that call PC's programs one note. Various commentators and former ice dancers have also pointed it out.
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No matter if you or anyone else thinks that P/C's FDs are "one note"/the same style, it does not change the fact that their music for those FDs has been anything but the same style. I completely agree that all Latin music is not the same, but it can at least be considered the same genre in a broad sense. Unlike the music used by P/C in their last three FDs - all three music choices have been different genres. Their 2015/2016 season FD music ("artsy" pop) and the second part of their 2016/2017 are somewhat close, although still not the same. But the rest of it is so different that it's more than simply ignorant to call it the same style. It's not even all slow. As if "slow" could be a basis for calling it the same style.

If anything, I think the perceived "sameness" of P/C's FDs is based more on their style of movement and their skating style (both fluid and "flowy"), as well as Dubreuil's choreography for them, not so much on the chosen music. I personally can also see this "sameness" based on the choreo/movement style. And all three FDs can be called "lyrical contemporary" with a bit of a stretch, as Mozart is not contemporary, and the first part of their last FD music was anything but lyrical. But, even with that, all three of those FDs had a different message and/or a different "flavour" with different emotional undertones (and not just undertones) etc. The same as V/M's lyrical FDs, if it comes to that.

Sorry for the long off-topic. As for P/C's statements regarding latin dances on ice, I can see their point about it being a difficult style to translate unto ice, but absolutely don't agree that all latin style ice dance programs are automatically cheap and cliche or that all latin music is the same. I truly hope that they will discover that it's not really true while searching for their SD music. Also, they should indeed watch Torvill/Dean's rumba. And, yes, learn to not take it all so seriously.
 
lauravvv- Mozart was a classical piece that they turned into a lyrical contemporary piece simply because the style was from the 18th century.

I understand this is hard to hear but they HAVE only done Contemporary style dances the last 3 years. Exact same emotion that they illicit. They are stunning but also yawn worthy now.

V&M at least have done a Musical, a Latin FD, Carmen, a waltz. You know other dances.

We wouldn't be so critical if they didn't get snippy in their opinion on what makes ice dance, ice dance.

I still can't get over the silliness of it. Contempory lyrical is lovely, but so are rhumbas, waltzs, tangos, quicksteps, foxtrots, swing, paso dobles etc.

There has to be other forms they can do or at the very least not bash.
 
Zemgirl said:
Claiming that Mozart, their 2016 FD music, and the experimental piano piece are all alike makes no more sense than the argument there is no variety in Latin music. I've always found it odd that some V/M fans are so quick to argue that C/Z are one-note skaters, given that V/M were the targets of similarly unfair criticism ("young couple in love" programs in their case) for many years.

I haven't seen any recent Latin ice dance that's wowed me - and that includes V/M's efforts - but maybe someone will come up with something original.

p.s. It was Papadakis who said that Latin music sounds alike to her and that being original is difficult. And Cizeron's name is Guillaume, not Gui. You can copy-paste from my post if typing it is too difficult.
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I feel like it's the 5th time I've said this, but their movement was the same type of movement they have done since Sochi, just to a daring music.
 
I've been of the opinion (lately) that P/C probably would have struggled relative to other teams had they competed in the 80s/90s, being too far behind after the CD/OD to make a run for gold. I still think the 6.0 vs. IJS skill sets that are rewarded are the most divergent in dance compared to the other disciplines.
 
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supergirl573 said:
I feel like it's the 5th time I've said this, but their movement was the same type of movement they have done since Sochi, just to a daring music.
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I really don't care how many times you've said this; I was responding to someone who claimed that they were using the same style of music. That's ridiculous even if one thinks their programs are too similar - which I disagree with, but that at least is a debatable point.
 
lauravvv said:

If anything, I think the perceived "sameness" of P/C's FDs is based more on their style of movement and their skating style (both fluid and "flowy"), as well as Dubreuil's choreography for them, not so much on the chosen music.
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If anything, this would be my only criticism of P/C -- that their movement tends to be similar. But for the sake of discussion, why is this a bad thing, exactly? We expect ballet dancers to dance ballet every year. Why should we expect ice dancers to dance ballet one year, but tap dance the next? Why can't a team find one style and explore it in depth year after year, showing deeper and deeper understanding of the style?

Personally, I wouldn't mind it -- so long as they also skate the SD. For a team as young as P/C, I believe trying different styles and expressions is important for development of both technique and artistry, both of which can be carried over to their FDs, even if they do the same style of FD every year.
 
sap5 said:
If anything, this would be my only criticism of P/C -- that their movement tends to be similar. But for the sake of discussion, why is this a bad thing, exactly? We expect ballet dancers to dance ballet every year. Why should we expect ice dancers to dance ballet one year, but tap dance the next? Why can't a team find one style and explore it in depth year after year, showing deeper and deeper understanding of the style?

Personally, I wouldn't mind it -- so long as they also skate the SD. For a team as young as P/C, I believe trying different styles and expressions is important for development of both technique and artistry, both of which can be carried over to their FDs, even if they do the same style of FD every year.
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Uh, because dance is an all-encompassing phrase that includes ALL genres and ballet is only one of those genres? Obviously we don't except ballet dancers to dance hip hop, and if figure skating had 10 different ice dance disciplines where one could choose whether to be a 'ballet ice dancer' or a 'contemporary ice dancer' or a 'hip hop ice dancer', then I wouldn't expect them to be versatile either. But since it's called 'ice dance', its not insane to expect these skaters to be able to interpret a range of rhythms and styles of dance.
 
aftershocks said:
Well, I think that Gaby and Guillaume make some interesting points. I don't completely disagree with them about the difficulty of making some latin dances work well on the ice without looking cheesy or cheap. Not that latin dances can't or haven't been translated beautifully. The difficulty is not the same, but it is somewhat similar to the difficulty of making hip hop work for the ice. And yet even with the difficulties involved, both hip hop and latin (especially latin) have been shown to be possible to translate. I don't agree that all latin dances and beats are the same either.

In any case, it's not as if P/C never performed latin dance on the ice, or can't perform it on the ice. It's just not their style or what they enjoy dancing to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCE9h3fuWvo JGP Baltic Cup SD 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUpJV1bkTO8 JWC FD 2011
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I like those programs. The Cha Cha Congelado in the SD was nice. Maybe they're just setting expectations low for the SD. If they're a little uncomfortable with it, maybe the effort to push through that will result in something special.
 
I mean they're still going to place 1-3 after the SD anyway, so this is just all talk. For ice dancers who have a reputation for not doing well in the SD, they sure score well enough in it to be almost guaranteed a silver and be in fighting position for gold...except when V/M knock the SD out of the park.
 
Sorry for the long off-topic. As for P/C's statements regarding latin dances on ice, I can see their point about it being a difficult style to translate unto ice, but absolutely don't agree that all latin style ice dance programs are automatically cheap and cliche or that all latin music is the same. I truly hope that they will discover that it's not really true while searching for their SD music. Also, they should indeed watch Torvill/Dean's rumba. And, yes, learn to not take it all so seriously.
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I like P&C. And in spite of the fact that at the beginning of the season their FD seemed to me a bit similar to the previous ones, I was blown away by it during Worlds. I also believe they are able to create a fantastic rumba, but … I’m not sure what to think of their comments. I even wouldn’t care about what they said about Latin dances that much. Like some say they have the right to their opinion. There are many Latin dances I didn’t like either. But then there are things they said in other interviews and I link those things I read together. So apparently they never watch skating and I find it sad. Do they know anything about history of ice dancing? I wouldn’t be surprised if indeed they didn’t see T&D rumba, and should indeed follow Lauravvv’s suggestion and watch it. And if they had never watched any dances from the past how they can form an opinion about them? According to the recent interview with MFD, they had never heard about probably the most famous pair skaters in the history – Gordeeva & Grinkov? Really? I hope it’s not true.

I hope they will show us fantastic programs in Olympic season and already can’t wait to see them. But Gabriela and Guillaume, please don’t forget that ice dancing has a long history and it’s not a shame to be inspired by it.
 
At this point, people just want to disagree. Why is it that it's a problem that Gabby feels that way? I know exactly what she means and I'm glad she wasn't being politically correct. Even Davis and White looked... as good as it could I guess.

One thing that's for sure is that their long lines and huge patterns are going to have a tough time fitting into the quick Latin genre. Without seeing what either team has done , this genre lends itself to Tessa and Scott. They can be precise and accurate with fast paced rhythms and have competed this before. Still, like this years short, which didn't scream " strength for Pap/Ciz, I'm sure i will like what they come up with.
 
I liked PC's paso doble. And I liked their lindy hop. I have hope I'll like their SD for next year too. And they gave a good challenge for themselves in trying to come up with a SD that fits the requirements but feels uniquely ice dance.
I don't have a problem with their comments. Even if a program looks good to others, it might still feel like a cheap imitation to the one performing it. There are some interesting ideas presented in this interview about the nature of ice dance and ballroom. I don't think that just because something has always been one way it always has to be that way. Pushing for innovation and a separate identity for ice dance is intriguing. Would it work? I don't know. You already see how strongly people push back against the notion here. But someone has to start the conversation. And then follow it up on the ice. We'll see if PC do.
 
I look forward to seeing what P/C come up with, especially in terms of their desire of creating something that fits the SD requirements, but feels uniquely ice dance.
 
sap5 said:
If anything, this would be my only criticism of P/C -- that their movement tends to be similar. But for the sake of discussion, why is this a bad thing, exactly? We expect ballet dancers to dance ballet every year. Why should we expect ice dancers to dance ballet one year, but tap dance the next? Why can't a team find one style and explore it in depth year after year, showing deeper and deeper understanding of the style?
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That's what I love about ice dance - that a good ice dancer has to be able to do Latin, quickstep, waltz, jive, contemporary, ballet, and so on during their career, and do them well. Even professional ballroom dancers specialize in either Latin or standard, so that makes good ice dancers all the more impressive. In the early days of ice dance there was even more variety.... 3 different CDs, an OSP, and then the FD consisting of changes in tempo. That's the foundation of the sport. While I'm glad the FDs have evolved, with the dropping of the CDs and the somewhat looser rhythm requirements of the OD/SDs in recent years (adding non-ballroom styles like folk and hip hop, allowing dancers to choose completely different styles like hip hop vs swing so you can't really compare directly), it's important IMO to keep the ballroom standard there.

While I love Marie-France in general, she has a tendency to make things look like lyrical contemporary. H&D's Hallelujah was a gorgeous program but it wasn't that waltzy. It was contemporary fit to the waltz and march rhythms. I want to see real sambas, rhumbas, and cha-chas from her teams next year, not contemporary dressed as rumba. It's a technical thing too. Doing lots of small steps in rhythm while keeping posture and hold requires different skills than floating over the ice doing long gorgeous edges. Both are important. When I look at V&M's footwork sequences from the 2014 and 2017 SDs, both are high quality skating elements, but the dancing catches my eye. The straightline from their foxtrot has a gorgeous frame but a relaxed, languid feel that creates rise and fall, but in 2017 it has a sort of bounce that totally works for hip hop. Or in their 2011 SD, they have soft music throughout but you can tell from the body movements when they are switching from waltz to tango - their postures and positions change effortlessly while keeping in the style of the music. That's ice dance at the highest level.

P&C are one of the best couples in the world. They are excellent skaters, and the lyrical style they do, they do very well. Like V&M, they came to it so young, and they have potential to be one of the greatest of all time. I agree with them that Latin is very difficult to translate to the ice. A lot of teams struggle with it. It's hard enough doing samba rolls when you aren't a professional Latin dancer. It's hard on the floor. On SYTYCD, even talented contemporary dancers have a hard time, then imagine putting it on ice. But if a great team like P&C isn't going to embrace that challenge, then who? Calling it cheap and cliche is disappointing. I'm worried that they will do what they did it 2012 where they put most of the elements and choreography to rhumba and then used the faster part to do the pattern thereby avoiding doing much fast dancing.

I quoted earlier a comment from Cizeron saying "we don't want to do an Egyptian program one year, then a flamenco..." and I get what he's saying to a certain extent. There are couples, who shall remain nameless, who are versatile on paper only. You can list all of their FDs and the styles are different but every year it was the same twizzles, same lifts, recycled choreo, only you add a rose to your hair and suddenly it's tango. That kind of thing is tacky and cliche. The best ice dancers, though, have all that stuff on their resume, and they really danced it. Grishuk & Platov did so many different styles in their career and each program was unique. You can't just swap out their choreography from Memorial and set it to Libertango, or skate their 1992 FD to the Feeling Begins. It's so hard to master all those different genres.

But since it's called "ice dance" it's not insane to thing a team might choose to interpret it as a chance to develop a particular dance style in depth in the FD portion, either.
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And they can do that, in the FD, if they want. It isn't against the rules as long as they dance to the beat. Lots of teams have, even very good ones. They are getting the top range of PCS so they have no complaints there. These comments were about the SD, though, and there, you do have to show that kind of range including Latin. It's been pointed out that V&M were also accused of not having range early on, which is true, I said it myself and it's the main reason why I didn't warm up to them until after 2010 despite how good they are. They seem to prefer lyrical, but they've shown a lot of versatility in their FDs (both the music and the way they danced it). I'd like to see P&C branch out more. They said in an interview they want to stay in Montreal their whole career. I don't know. D&L used to be such versatile dancers, but they found that David Wilson style their last two seasons and then that's pretty much all they did as pros and almost all they do as coaches. It's getting to be too much the more teams they have. They're such good coaches in so many ways with lots of attention to detail and basics, but a coaching change can do so much. Look what happened with P&C after they moved to D&L. They reached heights I didn't think would be possible for them. I fully expect they'll play to their strengths in the FD next year, but after that I'd really like to see something fresh.
 
sap5 said:
You probably should stay away from all the skating threads in this off season, Karpenko.
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Why? Just calling out the desperation in this thread, maybe you could all wait until you've got something concrete to review before releasing the hounds over a comment (or an opinion). Also calling out @Twilight1's hypocrisy and needing to get a life, especially since they like to put other people in check for the same things they're guilty of.

What if Virtue and Moir don't like polka, or jazz, or the Shibs don't like quickstep or swing, but just decided not to say it? I mean I don't really get the point on trying to give P/C some sort of reality check... because they don't care for Latin dances on the ice. Clearly that's just an attack on V/M or anyone who had done a Latin ice dance before. :scream: I mean who freaking cares?!?
 
Karpenko said:
Why? Just calling out the desperation in this thread, maybe you could all wait until you've got something concrete to review before releasing the hounds over a comment (or an opinion). Also calling out @Twilight1's hypocrisy and needing to get a life, especially since they like to put other people in check for the same things they're guilty of.

What if Virtue and Moir don't like polka, or jazz, or the Shibs don't like quickstep or swing, but just decided not to say it? I mean I don't really get the point on trying to give P/C some sort of reality check... because they don't care for Latin dances on the ice. Clearly that's just an attack on V/M or anyone who had done a Latin ice dance before. :scream: I mean who freaking cares?!?
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V/M are allowed not to like polka, the Shibs are allowed not to like swing and P/C are allowed not the like latin - and they are all allowed to comment on their personal liking and their opinions on the subject.
However if any of this teams decide to call all dances that were done in this styles "cheap and cliche" resulting in them disrespecting the effort that other teams put into those programs than I think it's completely acceptable to call them on it, and it shouldn't matter who your favorite team is.
And I find the all thing even more mind boggling when learning from this thread that their knowledge in the history of ice dance is so lacking, it just discredit their entire argument.
 
^well I do agree with that part, I didn't care for the cliche comment either (and don't agree with it) - but I don't think it was meant as an attack on the competition, they've both been nothing but complimentary towards Tessa and Scott all year long (and vice versa). They can feel that way if it's not going to affect the quality of their Latin SD, or diminish their competitors, cant they? I just feel like a lot of this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is, just because they gave their opinion about something. (And because we're heading towards a bloodbath season)

The Rhumba FD by V/M is still my favorite FD they've had btw :p didn't care as much for the SD version, but I'm really excited to see what they come up with. The Prince SD blew my mind and I have a good feeling they'll follow suit with another strong SD.

P/C might surprise and have a strong SD as well, sometimes you're good at things you don't necessarily care for, and they're an uber talented team. I don't understand the uproar, wait until they show their comments in the performance on the ice? If their SD looks like they don't like it, then have at it. :lynch:
 
Karpenko said:
Why?
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I just said it because most people like to take it easy in the summer, instead of working themselves into states where they need to self-chant to get back into relaxation? ;)

*chants to self* Love them both, love them both, love them both... no daggers need to be thrown at V/M, ever, even if their fans drive you crazy, love them both, love them both... (and I'm relaxed again)
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As for PC, I'm fully expecting them to come out with a super strong SD. They know that's what did them in last year, and they champions enough not to get bitten by the same thing twice.

Cherub721 said: These comments were about the SD, though,
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Whenever people say that PC are doing the same thing every year, they're talking about the FD, though, not the SD. I agree that the SD shouldn't be chucked, and everyone should have to do the different rhythms.
 
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:summer: touché, and point taken.

I just don't think Papadakis and Cizeron were throwing shade at Tessa and Scott, and I also love the beach and pina coladas for relaxing. You're all going to drive yourself nuts with the :argue: over an interview comment, and we still have like 4 months until we even know team Montreals music. The Olympic season is all about pacing yourself, don't waste it all on some Latin dances comment being blown out of proportion. :summer:
 
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