Papadakis/Cizeron #6 - Season's Over - Let's Get Drunk!

[alain06fr]

Except if I got it all wrong, it seems you are clearly in favor of P/C changing coaches. That cannot be motivated by the Olys wardrobe incident only, can it ? A12553 and I already asked you questions about this but you didn't answer. Isabelle G.'s request obviously got you very irritated and it seems you're taking P/C's future very much to heart so why not elaborating on what you said before ?

The main issue is this one: When someone criticises some management aspects of given coaches then he/she is quickly tagged as being against the coaches, which is most of the time not true. No one is perfect, including coaches. I would even say, including Canadian coaches.

Being coach is not easy but, AFAIK, no one was ever forced to become coach and coaches are payed to do that job so they must endorse all associated responsibilities. This is absolutely essential to understand that. In Gadbois, you have different kinds of coaches: "Main/choreograph" coaches, artistic coaches, fitness coaches, mental coaches, dance coaches, etc. Then you have different kinds of skaters. It's essential to know for the whole season who's responsible for what otherwise you can soon or late end up into messy, to not say ridiculous, situations... And this is exactly what happened at Olys for Gabriella and Guillaume. This dress story should have never happened in Pyeongchang, never ever... but it happened and none of the media declarations of MFD regarding this drama were at the level of what I expect from an int'l coach, dismissing the coaching team’s responsibilty to the skaters!

Let me elaborate a bit. First, as coach, you're the boss and you must protect your teams. You are fully responsible to coordinate all actions and associated resources/people. You must ensure that everything is done in a professional way. One of the main coach responsibility is to organise and moreover control the whole sequence: Arrival, check nothing is missing (skates, costumes, etc), check the fitness preparation, the dressing room preparation, etc. until the skaters are in the rink ready to perform. This sequence involves various persons from the team hence it's fundamental to make sure these persons will do what they are expected to do and not improvise things in emergency at the last minute... It's a must have as the skaters need to focus 100% on their performance keeping in mind they have to cope with a significant level of stress. To me, this ridiculous story, which was actually terrible for Gabriella and Guillaume, is the result of coaching team failures (especially when we know it happened already twice in two previous practices at Finlandia trophy and Europeans in Moscow). My point is to clarify what are the responsibilities in this crazy story, nothing else. It doesn't mean Gabriella and Guillaume must leave Gadbois, find another coaching team. It doesn't mean MFD is a bad coach! We know it's not the case obviously.

MFD and team choreographed brilliantly the Mozart Comcerto 24, inspired by the choreography of "Le Parc" by Angelin Preljoccaj, French dancer and choreographer at the Paris Opera. Same for "Build a home". Everything was fine and great... until Tessa and Scott joined Gadbois. As some of you pointed out, MFD & PL were friends with V/M and all of them are Canadians. The question is: Were MFD & PL able to distinguish between their private friendship with V/M and their professional role as coaches of various teams, including V/M and their main competitors, namely P/C ? Somehow, I hardly think they ever managed to do that. This is clearly a major problem they must sort out if they want to train, in the future, several top ice dance couples in direct competition, including Canadian couples.

Icetigger developed a detailed argument on the notion of conflict of interest regarding the Gadbois team and I fully agree with him. P/C's 2016/17 season was impacted by this conflict of interest.

Conflicts of interest on one side and responsibilities on the other side must be clarified otherwise the same problems will lead to the same issues... And no one wants the same issues to show up again!

This being said, I don't know whether Gabriella and Guillaume should or not leave Gadbois. As I already said, I think they should continue to work with Catherine Pinard, who brought so much to them and could for sure bring even more if they stay in Montréal. Scott Berrish is a great fitness coach, well appreciated by both G&G. Romain played a central role in their carreer until now so I guess he should continue to do so. As for MFD, I expect her to share or even hand over the choreography to new talents such as Chris Dean for example and some others. P/C can deliver tremendous performances on the ice so let's them work with various and different talented artists/dancers/choreographers. Let's open the doors and the windows. We know Gabriella and Guillaume want to promote contemporary dances. They are leaders, not followers. They need to work with other highly talented artists to share and develop their own vision of ice dance.

Anyhow, MFD, PL and RH should definitely revise their media communication!

 

[twinklestar]

There is a Lifar ballet version on the Tchaikovsky's R&J, and yes it's less famous than the Prokofiev one. What I really like is the love theme of the Tchaikovsky version.

 

[Simone411]

It was Péchalat/Bourzat's SD in 2011. There is something spellbinding in this music, it makes me feel lightheaded, (in a good way !) P/C could make it both imperial and magic.

In 2011. Wow! I was in ICU in a coma in April of 2011. I missed Worlds altogether. I remember that World's had to be canceled in Japan that March because of the tsunami from the earthquake, and right after that, I ended up in ICU in an induced coma. I still don't remember a lot even though some of the good people here at FSU like @Sylvia gave me links to a lot of the videos from 2011 Worlds.

It completely slipped my mind about P/B's SD. So thank you so much for the link. I would still love to see P/C skate to that music, also.

 

[a12553]

Everything was fine and great... until Tessa and Scott joined Gadbois.

It's an easy logic: if you think your team plays against you - you change it. If not - what a complaint. I think a team prepared P/C well, nobody's fault they often had lvls 3 in SD (before Tessa and Scott joined too). If they have some grievance to the team, they can find any better. But as we see, they stay at Gadbois.

This is clearly a major problem they must sort out if they want to train, in the future, several top ice dance couples in direct competition, including Canadian couples.

I just think, it's not a problem for coaches. For some fans - maybe. For them? I don't think so. They have the winners, they have 2nd place and have 4th one (who are 4th, not 3rd, not because coaches have some "problem"). The greatest result of this Games for one team and one of the greatest in all Dance history. Someone can call it a problem, but I think, they are really happy about this result)) And if someone (not you, of course, I speak about athlets) is unhappy about his place, he they should change something. Not those who is satisfied by result more than it could be imagined before the competition.
And I don't speak about change a team (for sure, if P/C are not pleasured by the team, it's logically to change it), maybe change their attitude to their preparation, for example, as they did before Worlds when Guillaume checked and sewed a dress himself.
It's an easy logic too. And they use it to have no problems in future, as we see.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I should think P/C’s 2016/17 season was more affected by their need to harden as competitors and get all their levels consistently than anything else because V/M’s presence meant they could no longer get away with the odd twizzle mishap here and there as they had in the previous two years, which is exactly what their coaching team managed to work with them towards for 2018, but whatever, I wasn’t there behind the scenes...

I’m very curious to see where they go with their tango and whether they’ll do a sharp staccato ballroom Tango or a looser interpretation based on the Argentine social dances. The paso is probably my favourite SD of theirs so far.

 

[cholla]

In 2011. Wow! I was in ICU in a coma in April of 2011. I missed Worlds altogether. I remember that World's had to be canceled in Japan that March because of the tsunami from the earthquake, and right after that, I ended up in ICU in an induced coma.

Sorry, I remember it happened in 2011 but I thought it was later in the spring that we almost lost you ..

I would still love to see P/C skate to that music also

Actually me too P/C having a totally different glide, stroke and style, I would really love to see what new gem they could rustle up with this music !

 

[thvu]

I should think P/C’s 2016/17 season was more affected by their need to harden as competitors and get all their levels consistently than anything else because V/M’s presence meant they could no longer get away with the odd twizzle mishap here and there as they had in the previous two years, which is exactly what their coaching team managed to work with them towards for 2018, but whatever, I wasn’t there behind the scenes...

I agree with this. The reality is that P&C had no equals until V&M returned. It made them better technicians, performers, artists, and competitors. The rivalry brought out the best in both teams. V&M were better than before too.

While I think it's impossible to separate ones personal and professional relationships in a situation like Marie-France and Patrice had to deal with, I'm sure they did the best they could the way they knew how. I don't think any more could be expected of a person, especially in such unideal circumstances.

 

[cholla]

The main issue is this one: When someone criticises some management aspects of given coaches then he/she is quickly tagged as being against the coaches, which is most of the time not true. No one is perfect, including coaches. I would even say, including Canadian coaches.

To be clearer, I never thought you were "against" anyone, I was simply intrigued by the vehemence of your post because it seemed you were personally concerned by what happened in Korea. Hence my surprise because anyone close to P/C and/or Gadbois would never voice his/her concerns this way on a public forum.

This is absolutely essential to understand that. In Gadbois, you have different kinds of coaches [snip]It's essential to know for the whole season who's responsible for what

I've been a coach myself (in another sport) and I have talked extensively with RH about how things are organized in Gadbois (I was also curious to learn more about B2Ten) I couldn't agree more with what you say about the importance of defining, very precisely and for the entire season, the role of every single person who works with the athletes. Working as a team is mandatory, but within said team there has to be boundaries between the different contributors. If your scope of intervention is GPP for instance, you're not supposed to meddle in other fields. When people start taking care of business they are not trained for, trouble is invariably ahead.

And this is exactly what happened at Olys for Gabriella and Guillaume. This dress story should have never happened in Pyeongchang, never ever...but it happened and none of the media declarations of MFD regarding this drama were at the level of what I expect from an int'l coach, dismissing the coaching team’s responsibilty to the skaters!

OK, now I get it, the main problem was actually the way MFD communicated about it. I don't know how she did it because I didn't take the time to follow the aftermaths of the "dressgate" closely. But as the bosses of the entire team, the coaches indeed have a part of responsability in the incident, just like in everything else, and they should have taken it on.

it's fundamental to make sure these persons will do what they are expected to do and not improvise things in emergency at the last minute

It would be even better if they were properly trained to face the unexpectable. And that's something you're required to learn when you work with word class athletes : how to face the unexpected, the impoderable. Here, it was not even unexpected since it had happened before.

It's a must have as the skaters need to focus 100% on their performance keeping in mind they have to cope with a significant level of stress.

It's an understatement. Along the years, I've seen countless athletes who, despite they had a full entourage, had to deal with a lot of time consuming and futile things that should never have landed in their hands, especially before and during a competition. To me, P/C hadn't the slightest responsability in what happened with the outfit. Skaters do check their own outfits and their partner's, it's a routine many of them have, along with checking their make up and hair. But it's a ritual, not a thorough search and control of every zipper and fastener. The thorough checking is not the skaters' job, especially when they have people in charge, which seems to be the case here. I mean, I saw Luca Lanotte sewing Anna's dress back but they hadn't such a big team around them and were doing with what they had.

My point is to clarify what are the responsibilities in this crazy story, nothing else. It doesn't mean Gabriella and Guillaume must leave Gadbois, find another coaching team.

I get it now. From what you wrote in your earlier posts, I thought you wished them to change coaches, and since the wardrobe incident wasn't, in my eye, enough of a reason, I was curious to know what else motivated your reaction. In fact my question was without object.

The question is: Were MFD & PL able to distinguish between their private friendship with V/M and their professional role as a coaches of various teams, including V/M and their main competitors, namely P/C ?

My own answer has been no since the very beginning. Not because MFD and PL are bad people but because they simply are human beings. How on earth can you not favor your own friends ? I am not talking of blatantly obvious preference, but of your heart logically beating faster for people who are dear to you. As the foreign coach of a team, I was more than once criticized for supposedly not giving my best to my trainees because my compatriots were their opponents. It was the opinion of a small minority but I could get where it came from, even if it wasn't true. But if I had had to train friends vs others ? Well, first I wouldn't have accepted, precisely to avoid favoring anyone... On the other hand, when your friends have already medalled twice at Olys and are top of the world skaters, how can you miss such an opportunity ? It must really be a cruel dilemma. On top of it, I think it was essential for V/M to work with MFD and PL to stack all the odds in their favor. They would never have had such a successful come back with another coach or other coaches. They knew it and so did MFD and PL.

Somehow, I hardly think they ever managed to do that. This is clearly a major problem they must sort out if they want to train, in the future, several top ice dance couples in direct competition, including Canadian couples.

Coaching your compatriots and other people is a real tricky job. It's OK only until your trainees reach the same level. Then, all the danger signs light up.

In any cases, MFD, PL and RH should definitely revise their media communication!

From what you say, it's indeed the heart of the problem, something I wasn't aware of. My last information on the subject was the dress designer Sophie Thomas, explaining she felt guilty but couldn't have done much more. It seems I'm really late to the rest of the story !

 

[Twilight1]

At what point are some fans going to accept that P&C had a bad season last season because they were growing in their MENTAL GAME.

They had wins handed to them because no one was at their level prior to V&M' return. V&M was their equal and in 2016-2017 they actually had to work harder for their win. (They won the FD at World's)

No matter how much you are prepared by your coaching staff at some point we need to see they were young and immature.

Coaches can't hand them maturity and age. Talk therapy and actually DOING are 2 different things.

Because of LAST SEASON, P&C were rock solid.

The dress was shyte luck. Pure and simple.

People need to take some sports psychology courses to get this issue. Only time would help them.

Or maybe look at what happened to Virtue and Moir when they got overtaken by Davis & White.

Spoiler alert- they became better competitors.

 

[cholla]

At what point are some fans going to accept that P&C had a bad season last season because they were growing in their MENTAL GAME.

I remember discussing this with a friend who's an international dance coach and we came to the same conclusion : P/C had never learn how to lose. It took V/M for them to not be first. In all logic, it also took them a little while to get used to it. As they are smart people, they managed to assimilate this new factor and to keep going nd improving. It was hard times for them but I think it was also fruitful.

 

[Japanfan]

To me, this ridiculous story, which was actually terrible for Gabriella and Guillaume, is the result of coaching team failures (especially when we know it happened already twice in two previous practices at Finlandia trophy and Europeans in Moscow)

While coaches are involved in many aspects of their skaters preparation, dress design is generally not their area of expertise. Those who are ex-skaters are probably familiar with the fasteners and such that hold costumes together, but I doubt it's routine for them to check these things. I would think it is the dressmaker who is responsible to ensure that clasps and fasteners work as they are supposed to.

From what you say, it's indeed the heart of the problem, something I wasn't aware of. My last information on the subject was the dress designer Sophie Thomas, explaining she felt guilty but couldn't have done much more. It seems I'm really late to the rest of the story !

If the fastener broke twice before Olympics, I have to wonder why Thomas didn't ensure that the problem was fixed.

The whole situation doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me TBH. I could see the clasp coming undone once as a freak accident, but not more than that.

OTOH, V/M had the superior SD IMO. But I don't think the judges would have agreed if not for the costume malfunction.

Does anyone know what exactly happened? Did the clasp break off?

On the other hand, when your friends have already medalled twice at Olys and are top of the world skaters, how can you miss such an opportunity ? It must really be a cruel dilemma. On top of it, I think it was essential for V/M to work with MFD and PL to stack all the odds in their favor. They would never have had such a successful come back with another coach or other coaches. They knew it and so did MFD and PL.

Coaching your compatriots and other people is a real tricky job. It's OK only until your trainees reach the same level. Then, all the danger signs light up.

MFD and PL strike me as individuals with a lot of integrity. If they felt there was a conflict of interest in coaching P/C and V/M, I'm sure they would have addressed it.

As has been pointed out innumerable times by skaters and others, when competitors train together, it pushes all the skaters to become better.

Zoueva managed with D/W and V/M, and the Shibs as well. Personally I did think she favored V/M for 2010 and D/W for 2014, by giving each team a superior program at each Olympics. It is understandable that she would have.

However, I don't think the situation was the exactly same with MFD and PL. SFAIK V/M chose the music, not their coaches. Given that they'd come back to compete in one more Olympics, I'm sure it was essential for them to pick a piece of music that inspired them - as opposed to being more Olympic-worthy.

But, Moonlight Sonata was the more Olympic-worthy program. The judges signaled that throughout the season. I wonder if MFD and PL knew that? It would seem they must have been aware of the 'buzz' around P/C.

 

[Alilou]

So @alain06fr and @Icetigger and probably others think it was a conflict of interest for MFD and PL to coach both teams.

But what were they to do?

They had long mentored V&M, and had choreographed their show numbers. When V&M asked PL and MFD to be their coaches if they decided to comeback PL said yes thinking that the possibility was remote. This happened long before RH and P&C moved to Gadbois.

So when V&M did decide to come back were PL and MFD then to go back on their word? Or were they to ask P&C to find other coaches?

Also do people also think RH was in a conflict of interest situation? And if not why not? Also should he have had some responsibility in making sure the costume malfunction didn't happen?

A nice big long quote from PL about how it was for them when they realized they had both teams:

http://fs-gossips.com/patrice-lauzon-great-programs-are-never-born-easily/

When Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir asked you to train them, did it take a long time for you to say yes?

– On the contrary, everything happened instantly. We have been friends for many years, were have been aware of what is happening in the life of Tessa and Scott since the very days when they stopped competing. After the Olympic Games in Sochi, Tessa and Scott came to us in Montreal to do programs for the show, and once asked the question: “If we decide to come back, will you take us?” I even did not turn on my head at that moment. Answered that of course we will take then, it’s not question at all. Just at that time I couldn’t even imagine that Virtue/Moir can really return. If I had been asked then what is the probability of such a step, I would have said that it is zero. But two years later, Tessa and Scott really came to the rink.

And?

– Only then I realized in what mess we got. I thought my head would burst. I kept thinking about who they are and who we are. They are the Olympic champions, Olympic silver medalists, they know dances in a way that maybe no one knows in the world. And we also have Gabby and Guillaume … In general, the stress was monstrous. At the same time, it was a challenge.

I know that in Russia before taking new students, coaches tend to ask the opinion of their main athletes.

– The same thing in Canada.

Papadakis Cizeron didn’t mind that strong rivals will join the group?

– Everything turned out really stupidly. When I first told Tessa and Scott that we will always be happy to train them, Gabby and Guillaume were not in our group at all, they came a little bit later. The work immediately went very well, in the first season Papadakis / Cizeron won the World Championships, so when we were faced with the need to sort it all out, I said to myself: “Well, you messed up…”

Did you consider the option to deny the Canadians?

– No. I considered myself to be a man of my word. Once I promised something, I must do it.

Did not you later regret this experience?

– No. It was difficult, I will not deny. But a huge challenge. I think it is useful for a coach to get into a situation – “Can I or I can not?”. Whatever one may say, both of our duets have become better thanks to this everyday rivalry. It seems to me that no one can argue with this.

 

[fscric]

Yawn! I thought RH was GG's main coach?! So why are the ubers blaming the Canadian coach? Did they criticize RH for being unprofessional when he made those unfavourable remarks last year when TS won Worlds? I come into this thread wanting to read about GG's news but instead the same trash was rehashed again and again by the same people, why don't they create another thread to slam the Canadian coach instead of polluting this thread? And, to quote Allezfred, build a bridge ...

 

[thvu]

@fscric . You certainly are extrapolating a lot from nothing. This was a balanced and thoughtful discussion until you came along. Please take your nonsense elsewhere.

 

[Emdee]

@fscric . You certainly are extrapolating a lot from nothing. This was a balanced and thoughtful discussion until you came along. Please take your nonsense elsewhere.

Not true ...it was full of blame, blame, blame.

 

[thvu]

Not true ...it was full of blame, blame, blame.

With a lot of pushback and disagreement.

 

[ballettmaus]

@fscric . You certainly are extrapolating a lot from nothing. This was a balanced and thoughtful discussion until you came along. Please take your nonsense elsewhere.

That certainly is in the eye of the beholder. To me it reads like some posters are desperately trying to make the "the coach is biased and P/C lost because of bias" argument.

Things happen. It was most unfortunate and the most unfortunate timing and heartbreaking for them and I wish it hadn't happened. But it's not the coaches fault. And if it was secured by hook and eye and tape and whatnot like Gabriella said then it's probably not the designer's fault either. P/C didn't blame anyone for it. Why should fans?
And P/C are obviously happy with their coaching situation. So why should they consider making any changes? (Not to mention that they started winning after they moved to Canada).

 

[Excidra]

This is the type of discussion that occurs when people are still bitter months after Pyeongchang results. What is going to happen when H/D began to threaten P/C's dominance in the next quad? Will people here continue to engage in basless conspiracy theroies?

P/C continue to train with with MFD and PL; which tells me they'e obviously getting what they want/need out of this coaching situation.

Enjoy the off season.

 

[Japanfan]

This is the type of discussion that occurs when people are still bitter months after Pyeongchang results. What is going to happen when H/D began to threaten P/C's dominance in the next quad? Will people here continue to engage in basless conspiracy theroies?

I do hope that H/D begin to threaten P/C's dominance, but don't see it happening yet. H/D are firmly positioned as one of the top three American dance teams, and SFAIK all of them may continue.

I say I "hope" because dance is going to be a bit boring this next quad if no one can challenge P/C.

 

[chantilly]

Agreed. While I do see that P and C are stronger then most teams, I really feel the gap between them and H and D for example is not as wide as the marks indicate.
1-2 points IMO, both when technically clean and PCS.

 

[maya1985]

I like H/D but there is still a big gap between them and Gaby and Guillaume ...10 points in their last competition.
For those who fear the lack of competition for Gaby and Guillaume ,no need to worry for the next 4 years : there will be H/D, Canadians will be there to beat them (I did not say they will succeed but It can happen a lot of things until 2022)

 

[Enchanted]

@cholla What were your impressions of the show in Courchevel?

 

[twinklestar]

Fake P/C fans, V/M fans, Gadbois/MFD fans: stop spamming Papadakis and Cizeron's thread. Go back to your threads and get a life.

 

[twinklestar]

MFD and PL strike me as individuals with a lot of integrity.

No, they don't.

 

[RoseRed]

No, they don't.

??? @Japanfan literally stated an opinion about how they see things. You can't say, 'no, you don't see things that way'.

 

[Miloune]

It's like the craziness of both VM's and P/C's threads gathered here now that V/M are done. Hahaha omg God help us!

 

[kittysk8ts]

It's going to be torture waiting to hear their program announcements! I hope they don't feel TOO much pressure to go in a completely different direction with their FD next season. They have lots of time to experiment.

 

[chantilly]

I’m actually not seeing any craziness from V/ M fans for once. Actually it’s just P/C fans this time.
Any at that theres really only a couple.
The next quad should be interesting. I’m actually happy for once not to be overly invested yet in one team from any country. But give me time.

 

[chantilly]

It's going to be torture waiting to hear their program announcements! I hope they don't feel TOO much pressure to go in a completely different direction with their FD next season. They have lots of time to experiment.

They do. But post Olympics would be a great year to do it. At this point based on the score gap they have lots of room to experiment.
I know it’s just a rumour, but they also could afford to skip GP.

 

[maya1985]

report on the tour with Gabriella's short interview