Pairs Discussion Thread 2018-19--"Two Skating as One"

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RoseRed

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Was an explanation ever given of why Yu & Zhang aren't being sent? Or the Wangs if they weren't ready? the heck...
Y/Z - not ready after her injury
W/W - no tech minimums (the last comp for pairs that met the 4CC deadline was in Dec).
 

Scrufflet

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I have a serious pairs question re Sui/Han. I love this team. I cannot figure out how they make their skating work as they are close in height and I am so used to seeing large muscular men with petite partners. What's their secret?
 

skatingguy

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I have a serious pairs question re Sui/Han. I love this team. I cannot figure out how they make their skating work as they are close in height and I am so used to seeing large muscular men with petite partners. What's their secret?
No expert but I think the fact that they have been skating together for a long time, and have a very solid technical base for their pair elements allows them to do things that others of similar stature would struggle with.
 

Mad for Skating

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I have a serious pairs question re Sui/Han. I love this team. I cannot figure out how they make their skating work as they are close in height and I am so used to seeing large muscular men with petite partners. What's their secret?
Cong is very strong for his height, and Wenjing rotates very quickly on the twist, so he doesn’t have to throw her very high. Also the close height difference makes for better synchronization in the spins and side by side choreography.
 

kalamalka

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I have a serious pairs question re Sui/Han. I love this team. I cannot figure out how they make their skating work as they are close in height and I am so used to seeing large muscular men with petite partners. What's their secret?
All of the above (what skatingguy and Mad for Skating said). Plus, and to amplify a bit, there's still a reasonable height difference for a pair (20 cm), since Wenjing is also small. They learned pairs together, starting when they were 12 &15 (at least according to their ISU bio), so have the same technique and neither has ever had another partner. Cong is REALLY strong, especially for a little guy. And obviously they're also both very talented. They won their first of 3 World Juniors in their first year competing internationally / third year skating pairs.
When I've seen them in person they seem in proportion as a pair.
 

s_parks

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Well that, and the technique the Chinese teach is simply more optimal I think. We've seen pairs that have been together from a young age but have to split when the height difference gets anywhere near that of S/H.
 

Scrufflet

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Thanks skatingguy, Mad for Skating, kalamalka and s_parks. And I envy kalamalka for the experience of seeing them live. They really create a spell for me.
And an aside, I seem to remember that David Pelletier was helping pairs teams out a year or so ago. Was it the Chinese? And Du/Rad were assisting Koreans and possibly others (?) My memory is failing me on this! I wonder what aspect they would be contributing and to which teams. They probably wouldn't tell us!
 

Mad for Skating

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there's still a reasonable height difference for a pair (20 cm), since Wenjing is also small.
If I remember right, James/Cipres only have 20cm, Stolbova/Klimov had 24cm, and Peng/Jin have 21. Evelyn Walsh and Trennt Michaud only have 13cm! It just depends upon the pair. Duhamel and Radford had 39!
 

ssminnow

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I have a serious pairs question re Sui/Han. I love this team. I cannot figure out how they make their skating work as they are close in height and I am so used to seeing large muscular men with petite partners. What's their secret?
I imagine Sui has tremendous core strength that allows her to hold herself well. I will say that as she's matured, their twist isn't as high as it used to be, but IMO they more than make up for it in the increasingly explosive power that they project on the ice.
 

Mad for Skating

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I imagine Sui has tremendous core strength that allows her to hold herself well. I will say that as she's matured, their twist isn't as high as it used to be, but IMO they more than make up for it in the increasingly explosive power that they project on the ice.
Most definitely. She’s amazing.
 

barbarafan

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All of the above (what skatingguy and Mad for Skating said). Plus, and to amplify a bit, there's still a reasonable height difference for a pair (20 cm), since Wenjing is also small. They learned pairs together, starting when they were 12 &15 (at least according to their ISU bio), so have the same technique and neither has ever had another partner. Cong is REALLY strong, especially for a little guy. And obviously they're also both very talented. They won their first of 3 World Juniors in their first year competing internationally / third year skating pairs.
When I've seen them in person they seem in proportion as a pair.
Sui is very strong corewise. She is doing most of the work in the throws and her position in lifts is very stable.
 

skatingguy

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Sui is very strong corewise. She is doing most of the work in the throws and her position in lifts is very stable.
That's not Chinese throw technique. Chinese throw technique is for the man to chuck the lady as hard, high, and far as possible and let them figure it out on the way down. If Sui was doing most of the work in the throws she would be able to land that side-by-side triple salchow.
 

s_parks

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Sui is very strong corewise. She is doing most of the work in the throws and her position in lifts is very stable.
Sui is great for many reasons but she's not doing "most of the work" on throws. Like skatingguy said about the chinese technique. She awesome for being able to hold on to the throw landings, and while an elite pairs skater like her does have good core strength, she's not a good jumper on her own.
 

Mad for Skating

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That's not Chinese throw technique. Chinese throw technique is for the man to chuck the lady as hard, high, and far as possible and let them figure it out on the way down. If Sui was doing most of the work in the throws she would be able to land that side-by-side triple salchow.
That’s Hao Zhang technique. Han doesn’t seem to “chuck” Sui around. In fact I think Savchenko/Massot, James/Cipres, and Ryom/Kim (and probably others I can’t think of) have more of a “chuck the lady” technique. It works for some couples and not for others. Often the lady ends up two-footing the jump because there’s too much force to control, but it can work.

Duhamel/Radford had a technique that was long but not high, even though they had a huge size difference, so Meagan could control the landings.

Tarasova/Morozov’s throws are incredibly high, and she lands with so much speed that she can often two-foot the landing and still maintain the appearance of a running edge.

Stolbova/Klimov’s actual throws weren’t exceptionally high or long, but they came barreling down the ice with crazy speed on the takeoff, and Ksenia got an amazing running edge.

Cain/LeDuc (who have a small height difference because they are both tall) have high throws because she has to get her long legs high enough off the ice to complete the rotation.

Those are the examples of throw technique I can think of off the top of my head.
 

skatingguy

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That’s Hao Zhang technique. Han doesn’t seem to “chuck” Sui around. In fact I think Savchenko/Massot, James/Cipres, and Ryom/Kim (and probably others I can’t think of) have more of a “chuck the lady” technique. It works for some couples and not for others. Often the lady ends up two-footing the jump because there’s too much force to control, but it can work.
Well Cong leaves the ice when he throws her so I would call that chucking.
 

nimi

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Han doesn’t seem to “chuck” Sui around.
Agreed.

Maybe it's because I'm not a native speaker so I might misunderstand and misinterpret things but talking about "chucking" in the context of throw jumps makes me think of the guy throwing his partner around almost like she's an inanimate object, which is totally the opposite of the impression I got when I witnessed Sui/Han up close at the 2017 Worlds practice. I was very impressed by the way they accelerated into their big elements, especially into their explosive throw flip that they landed right in from of me several times (*gasps*). It must be really difficult to do that acceleration (together, two as one) while maintaining control! I'm not an expert and it's been a while but my layperson impression was that basically the other teams -- even the ones with big throws and good speed overall -- didn't push the gas pedal the way S/H did immediately before the throw take-off.

- - - - - -

I don't know if this has been brought up in other threads, but this ISU communication has some initial info about the 5 CS comps that will feature pairs next season: https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/19784-isu-communication-2227/file

Basically, the "core group" of CS events will be 1) Nebelhorn, 2) Finlandia, 3) Nepela and 4) Golden Spin plus 5) "one event in Canada or the United States to be agreed upon among the ISU Figure Skating Members in Canada and the United States."

In addition to these five, "Up to a maximum of five (5) additional International Figure Skating Competitions may be added by the ISU Council at its full discretion based on the applications from organizing ISU Members from all Continents to be submitted to the ISU."

The language is a bit vague but if I understand correctly, the 5 CS events listed above will have pairs, while the additional CS events will not. (Or if they do, the pairs event will have IC status while the other 3 disciplines have CS status? Not sure...)
 

RoseRed

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If the US Classic is still at altitude, then I hope it's the Autumn Classic that ends up with the CS pairs.
 

barbarafan

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That’s Hao Zhang technique. Han doesn’t seem to “chuck” Sui around. In fact I think Savchenko/Massot, James/Cipres, and Ryom/Kim (and probably others I can’t think of) have more of a “chuck the lady” technique. It works for some couples and not for others. Often the lady ends up two-footing the jump because there’s too much force to control, but it can work.

Duhamel/Radford had a technique that was long but not high, even though they had a huge size difference, so Meagan could control the landings.

Tarasova/Morozov’s throws are incredibly high, and she lands with so much speed that she can often two-foot the landing and still maintain the appearance of a running edge.

Stolbova/Klimov’s actual throws weren’t exceptionally high or long, but they came barreling down the ice with crazy speed on the takeoff, and Ksenia got an amazing running edge.

Cain/LeDuc (who have a small height difference because they are both tall) have high throws because she has to get her long legs high enough off the ice to complete the rotation.

Those are the examples of throw technique I can think of off the top of my head.
Han has resisted the "Chinese Method" of doing throws like Hao Zhang. They seem to go their own way a little bit and it seems to be tolerated maybe due to their results.
 

Mad for Skating

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Well Cong leaves the ice when he throws her so I would call that chucking.
He definitely has some force behind his throws, but I think he is still in control of his body and not just mindlessly throwing his weight around, or at least that’s what I see.

Han has resisted the "Chinese Method" of doing throws like Hao Zhang. They seem to go their own way a little bit and it seems to be tolerated maybe due to their results.
I agree. Whatever they’re doing, it’s working!

I was very impressed by the way they accelerated into their big elements, especially into their explosive throw flip that they landed right in from of me several times (*gasps*)
I definitely think the acceleration is key. They get so much speed and momentum, which helps them get the power for the throws and allows her to get a great running edge.
 

clairecloutier

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There are no caps on the number of entries for CS events, right?? I was just thinking about U.S. senior pairs ... We used at least 15 CS pairs slots this past season, maybe 1 or 2 more. I would imagine Russia used a similar amount.
 

wickedwitch

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There are no caps on the number of entries for CS events, right?? I was just thinking about U.S. senior pairs ... We used at least 15 CS pairs slots this past season, maybe 1 or 2 more. I would imagine Russia used a similar amount.
Individual events absolutely cap. I hope they all stop capping pairs.
 

puglover

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I just watched S/M's winning free skate from the Olympics and I can't say I have seen anything close to that seamless beauty this year. Every element just looks bigger and better.
 

Mad for Skating

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The cast of Averbukh's latest show went to Lake Baikal, so there's a lot of cool videos showing up on skaters' instagrams.

PetTikh death spiral
TarMor (Zhenya didn't bring her own skates)
(but she borrowed some later)
SO COOL! I love it!

I just watched S/M's winning free skate from the Olympics and I can't say I have seen anything close to that seamless beauty this year. Every element just looks bigger and better.
Happy (slightly belated) one year anniversary to the day when the Queen claimed her throne. Stunning performance 💜
 

Amy L

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According to Enbert's instagram, Z/E are training for Worlds. I know they've been a question mark since they w/d from Euroes, so here's some news for the fans! (I'm not really a fan, but I don't wanna see P/K's weird ass LP anymore either, so go zenberts!)
 

shan

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According to Enbert's instagram, Z/E are training for Worlds. I know they've been a question mark since they w/d from Euroes, so here's some news for the fans! (I'm not really a fan, but I don't wanna see P/K's weird ass LP anymore either, so go zenberts!)
Who are P/K?
 
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