Other Ladies Nagano 98

[olympic]

LP ofcourse. She never did that program with a 3toe3toe, I also wonder what her final 3toe would become - another 2axel?

Probably. That sounds like a jump layout from the 90s. MK often added the extra jump in very important competitions

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I always wondered why MK didn't go for three combos in that program. The 3lp falling leaf one didn't seem competitive enough to me when one considers TL's three different combos.

 

[olympic]

^At the time, a lot of top ladies only did a combo to avoid the Zayak rule and that lasted even post Y2K.

I think it changed w/ IJS when actual point values were introduced, and ladies collectively began to maximize points w/ jumps. So, one had to keep up with the others and do 3 combos.

 

[honey]

This is a bit off topic but am I the only one who always thought the Kwan 3L+3L story was questionable? I am a huge Kwan fan, but girl wasn’t exactly known for her loops. I just can’t picture her on her best day ever landing this combo cleanly. I feel the same way about Peggy stating that Kwan did 3S+3L in practice at 2001 worlds. Did anyone actually see this with their own eyes? My assumption has always been that any 3L combo attempt from Kwan would have looked like the Hail Mary 3Z+3L at skate Canada 2001 (which is to say: not even close).

I don’t have reason to believe Christine Brennan or Peggy Fleming would blatantly have made up those stories, but they always made me wonder.

 

[VGThuy]

I didn’t think it was until that I realized it did come from Brennan. But she doesn’t usually blatantly lie about observing actions from other people no matter how shoddy I find her to be. And honestly, skaters try all sorts of things in practice. Kwan was doing two loops and this season may have been her most consistent one regarding the loop and the solo ones looked really good, so maybe she was trying it out.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I feel the same way about Peggy stating that Kwan did 3S+3L in practice at 2001 worlds. Did anyone actually see this with their own eyes?

I did not see with my own eyes, but there were eyewitness reports on Skatefans/rssif from posters I trust. I did see with my own eyes Kwan "land" 3S+3Lo at 2001 Skate America practices. Some were on one foot, though all were heavily cheated: << in today's scoring. Better than the "hail Mary" lutz-loop attempt at Skate Canada, but significantly worse than Sarah Hughes. The ones my friends saw at 2001 Worlds were said to be better; some claim that the tracings were completely clean. I have my doubts based on the best attempts I saw later that year, but they were there and I was not.

I was lucky to see two absolutely clean, fully rotated, and on-one-foot quad salchows from Sasha Cohen in those same practices - one of which made the ABC broadcast.

 

[Erin]

I was at 2001 Skate Canada and the triple lutz-triple loop might have looked like a Hail Mary in the competition but I saw more than one realistic attempt at both that and the triple sal-triple loop in the practices. The triple sal-triple loop was actually the much stronger combination in practice, so I thought it was odd she went for the lutz-loop in competition, but maybe she really wanted to push the difficulty angle. In terms of quality, I don’t recall the best attempts having severe underrotations to the level of Bonaly at 1995 Worlds, but in retrospect my best guess is that that both combinations probably would have been < by today’s standards.

Kwan really underperformed in the competition compared to the practice at that event, which was a real shame. I walked away from one practice with my mind blown, as she skated a clean full run through (using the standards then for underrotations) that included the triple sal-triple loop. It was a good example of how practice sometimes doesn’t mean much, but since it’s the only time I got to see Kwan skate live, I’m still glad I was able to see her skate so well in the practices.

 

[honey]

Interesting. Bummer no cameras got those 2001 worlds or 2001 skate Canada practice attempts. It would have really been an interesting turn of events if she’d have been able to do either of those combos in competition (sounds like they were st least to the standard of the day in terms of rotation). It would have changed the narrative around her for those two seasons for sure.

 

[VGThuy]

I think had Kwan won Skate Canada with a Sal/loop, it would have been an Irina at 2000 GPF moment. It definitely would have changed everything and Kwan’s mentality that season.

 

[asdf334]

Digging up old news, but commentary from Frank on the state of Kwan's sal - loop combo at around the time of 2001 Worlds:

KWAN FACES UPHILL BATTLE WITH SLUTSKAYA FOR WORLD TITLE

Figure skating judges often are thought of as observers devoid of anything but blind nationalism, schemers who rarely call them as they see them.

webcache.googleusercontent.com

 

[Skibean]

Perhaps Frank meant that she can’t do it in a full long program. We all have heard reports of several eye witnesses that she landed it in practice. So many praise Sasha Cohen for her one clean practice landing of a quad, yet try to discount Kwan’s landing of the 3/3.

 

[Erin]

Frank liked a jump to be consistent before putting in a program - my recollection is 80%. And I can agree with his reasoning for that. The triple lutz-triple loop at 2001 Skate Canada is probably a good example of what happens when you put something in a program that you aren’t consistent with. I’m guessing based on a hazy memory of something I saw 20 years ago, but I doubt either of those combinations would have met Frank’s standards for consistency when I saw them. And it’s very possible I saw one of her best practices, since it sounds like they didn’t look as good at Skate America.

This discussion reminds me that I’ve always wondered if part of the reason Kwan split with Frank was that she wanted to be less conservative with her jumps in the Olympic season.

 

[Coco]

Knowing that they did split up a few months later, it's interesting to read between the lines in that interview.

It sounded like their communication had become more formal, and he was almost attempting to communicate to her through the media.

 

[briancoogaert]

Michelle won 1998 Nationals with the exact same layout and was very close to winning the Olympics. IMHO, it all depended on the energy Tara put in her performances. Michelle was perfect but probably too cautious. Even with a 3/3 combo, it would have been less than Tara's combo. So I'm fairly sure Tara would still have won it, based on her energy.

 

[olympic]

Michelle won 1998 Nationals with the exact same layout and was very close to winning the Olympics. IMHO, it all depended on the energy Tara put in her performances. Michelle was perfect but probably too cautious. Even with a 3/3 combo, it would have been less than Tara's combo. So I'm fairly sure Tara would still have won it, based on her energy.

I think in this particular case, American judges and ISU judges were bound to react differently

 

[tony]

I think there were a few factors, especially since I don't think anyone really considered Lipinski as a favorite IF Michelle repeated Nationals. Tara had a rocky season to that point in more than one event, losing to Laetitia Hubert of all people and winning 5-2 against Szewczenko with a great skate.

First- skate order. Michelle was first to go. We see a lot about how she was or wasn't holding back, but I personally think she was just slightly flat. Could that have been the more reserved audience? Maybe. But I also think some of her jumps looked tighter than usual, the flip was a bit wonky -- nothing that severe, but an overall impression that isn't jump out of your seat thrilled IMO. Still love the program and performance. And I still think even if she skated after Tara with that same performance, she still loses.

Slutskaya and Chen skated, I believe Bonaly skated right before Lipinski and you know the crowd got energized after that. Tara also was on fire, she skated free, she was confident, the technical merit was much higher than Michelle anyways (not looking through IJS eyes), and she had the night. For so long I went back and forth on who should've won as I preferred Kwan then and now, but for me I really think it was Lipinski's no matter what with that skate.

Also, Michelle was amazing at Nationals and deserved all of her 6.0's but the US judges weren't going to put Tara ahead of her in the long after Tara was 4th in the short. Michelle, even with her injury questions, was going to be the clear #1 going into Nagano by the USFS.

So I agree with @briancoogaert - Tara had the energy.

 

[Marco]

^At the time, a lot of top ladies only did a combo to avoid the Zayak rule and that lasted even post Y2K.

Yes. She was going to repeat the loop so had to combine one of them. The 3loop 2toe sequence she did was easier than a straight 3loop2toe so she went for the easier option. This is similar to her earlier senior years when she wouldn't go for a 3lutz2toe but a 3lutz turn 2toe instead because she wouldn't have enough flow on the lutz landing to directly tag on the 2toe.

She used to do the 2axel2toe as well as her 3rd combo in her earlier days but stopped once she started going for the 3toe3toe. The first 2axel in Salome could not end with a 2toe because of the choreographed landing, and the second one (if it happens, like at SA or Nationals) was also timed to the music and can't end with a 2toe. Since Taj Mahal, there wasn't even a place for a second 2axel - the thinking was probably that a second 2axel would not be necessary if there was a 3toe3toe; and if there wasn't, the spare spot should be a 3toe instead.

Come to think of it, she might not have been successful with 3/3s other than the 3toe3toe, but she did try a variety of triple combos in her career:

3toe2toe, 3toe2loop, 3toe3toe
3sal2toe (2004), 3sal3loop (2001 practice)
3loop FL 2toe, 3loop3loop (1998 practice)
3flip2toe (2003), 3flip2toe2loop (2005), 3flip3toe (2006 practice)
3lutz2toe, 3lutz2loop, 3lutz3toe (2006 practice), 3lutz3loop (2001 practice)

 

[Marco]

This is a bit off topic but am I the only one who always thought the Kwan 3L+3L story was questionable? I am a huge Kwan fan, but girl wasn’t exactly known for her loops. I just can’t picture her on her best day ever landing this combo cleanly. I feel the same way about Peggy stating that Kwan did 3S+3L in practice at 2001 worlds. Did anyone actually see this with their own eyes? My assumption has always been that any 3L combo attempt from Kwan would have looked like the Hail Mary 3Z+3L at skate Canada 2001 (which is to say: not even close).

I don’t have reason to believe Christine Brennan or Peggy Fleming would blatantly have made up those stories, but they always made me wonder.

"But this was my combination."

I remember this story and would believe that Michelle purposely did it in front of Tara to freak her out even if she was in no way seriously practising it or putting it in her competitive routine.

 

[Marco]

I was at 2001 Skate Canada and the triple lutz-triple loop might have looked like a Hail Mary in the competition but I saw more than one realistic attempt at both that and the triple sal-triple loop in the practices. The triple sal-triple loop was actually the much stronger combination in practice, so I thought it was odd she went for the lutz-loop in competition, but maybe she really wanted to push the difficulty angle. In terms of quality, I don’t recall the best attempts having severe underrotations to the level of Bonaly at 1995 Worlds, but in retrospect my best guess is that that both combinations probably would have been < by today’s standards.

Kwan really underperformed in the competition compared to the practice at that event, which was a real shame. I walked away from one practice with my mind blown, as she skated a clean full run through (using the standards then for underrotations) that included the triple sal-triple loop. It was a good example of how practice sometimes doesn’t mean much, but since it’s the only time I got to see Kwan skate live, I’m still glad I was able to see her skate so well in the practices.

Thanks for sharing.

My understanding of her departure from Frank was exactly that - she wanted to be more aggressive but he didn't feel she was ready / needed the harder 3/3s; and she felt she needed support rather than someone to say no to her all the time.

 

[Coco]

Michelle won 1998 Nationals with the exact same layout and was very close to winning the Olympics. IMHO, it all depended on the energy Tara put in her performances. Michelle was perfect but probably too cautious. Even with a 3/3 combo, it would have been less than Tara's combo. So I'm fairly sure Tara would still have won it, based on her energy.

I have heard that the rink being larger in Nagano played to Lipinski's strengths (ice coverage) but I've never seen a detailed analysis of that.

 

[VGThuy]

Regarding ice coverage, Kwan was just slower during that particular skate. She said herself that when the flip went kind of wonky, it sort of woke her up to the fact that she could fall and make a mistake, so she may have felt a bit tighter than she was before that flip. The Goodwill Games later that year also used an Olympic-sized rink, and though Kwan made two errors in the LP, she was flying across that rink and was not behind the music the way she was in Nagano.

 

[fsfan2480]

Eh, for me ... Butyrskaya should've gotten the Bronze. Her Short Program was great. As for the Long, yes, she was a bit stiff. But she had a lot of content in there. For me, Chen Lu won Bronze in 1994, so I would not have ranked her 3rd again - even with her lovely backstory and fight. Lu's jumps were really egregious in that Long Program skate. Slutskaya probably had the best technicals, but I'd have her below Chen and Butyrskaya in the Presentation marks.

For the long, I'd have scored them:
Butyrskaya - 5.6/5.8
Slutskaya - 5.7/5.7
Chen - 5.5/5.8

Very close, though.

As for Szewczenko, though I LOVED her and thought her skate at the Grand Prix Finals was superb ... I don't know that good skates in both the Short and Long there would've necessarily equated to Bronze. She'd have to skate lights out, because her speed and spins were lacking to the other 3 contenders. As for Czako, LOVED her too. But I wasn't feeling a Top 6 finish for her there, either.

 

[all_empty]

I too was skeptical of Michelle's 3S+3Lo story but I believe she confirmed it in her TSL interview.

The 3Lo was always her iffiest triple, though it was pretty solid in the Olympic year. If you look at jumps alone, hers matched Tara's -- 7 triples with a repeated 3Lz and 3Lo (she would do two 3T at Worlds). But of course, Tara had the harder combos.

I would give the nod to Maria over Tanja (and Tara) in the short given the harder elements, but Maria actually placed behind Tanja at the 1997 NHK Trophy:

https://youtu.be/8QmnoGKXTGg

https://youtu.be/N06Qer0nZPg (this is the scariest 3S in skating history)

You have to also remember at this time Maria was averaging 4-5 clean triples at the time, and she really need to have a sixth (3T) and even seventh (3Lo) triple to medal over Tanja in the free. I actually think had she landed the second 3T in Nagano and done a 2A + 2A sequence at the end, she could've clinched the bronze; she just petered out badly at the end.

 

[tony]

The Salchow early in Butyrskaya's career was a huge, effortless jump, and then in her latter years she could not complete it without tacking on a toe loop + Euler sequence in front of it. I remember in one GPF, she skated as bad as I've ever seen, and she tried to throw in the Sal at the end but still did the sequence preceding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8ClJSYB-A#t=3m52 - One of the hardest falls I've ever seen

And of course there was this just a few weeks before her Worlds win:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqxcLZd0KkA&t=1953s

 

[Marco]

The Salchow early in Butyrskaya's career was a huge, effortless jump, and then in her latter years she could not complete it without tacking on a toe loop + Euler sequence in front of it. I remember in one GPF, she skated as bad as I've ever seen, and she tried to throw in the Sal at the end but still did the sequence preceding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8ClJSYB-A#t=3m52 - One of the hardest falls I've ever seen

And of course there was this just a few weeks before her Worlds win:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqxcLZd0KkA&t=1953s

She must have stopped practising solo 3sals around 2000 when she brought in the 3-3. The amount of shoulder work she had to do to get the sal in the sequence must have messed with the timing of her solo 3sal.

 

[all_empty]

The Salchow early in Butyrskaya's career was a huge, effortless jump, and then in her latter years she could not complete it without tacking on a toe loop + Euler sequence in front of it. I remember in one GPF, she skated as bad as I've ever seen, and she tried to throw in the Sal at the end but still did the sequence preceding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8ClJSYB-A#t=3m52 - One of the hardest falls I've ever seen

And of course there was this just a few weeks before her Worlds win:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqxcLZd0KkA&t=1953s

You're a mindreader. I was going to post the GPF wipeout but didn't have time to search for the clip.

Other times though, it was smooth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIGHEyAfDbk (great landings on all these jumps)