Other Ladies Nagano 98

[Marco]

Her spins were very short, but they always were. Judges didn’t seem to mind.

They were at their worst in 93 to 96. Some of her spins would only have 3 revs. The judges didn't ding her like they didn't for Baiul.

In Nagano I felt they were average compared to the rest of the top 5, but very good by her own standards. The combination spin was especially magical. The final two spins (deathdrop and layback) were actually pretty good and held out.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember her spins being pretty good (for her) in 1995 but regressing in 1996. Didn’t she have some spin-related deductions for that 1997 Worlds SP that she botched as well?

 

[olympic]

We discussed Tanja and her habits but if Tanja had skated in Nagano and accomplished what she did at CSF 97, would she have been on the podium?

 

[tony]

We discussed Tanja and her habits but if Tanja had skated in Nagano and accomplished what she did at CSF 97, would she have been on the podium?

Yes, there’s no question. Butyrskaya was one judge away from bronze with 4 triples and an uninspired performance.

 

[VGThuy]

No question she would have won the bronze. She did 7 huge triples in that CSF skate.

 

[Marco]

We discussed Tanja and her habits but if Tanja had skated in Nagano and accomplished what she did at CSF 97, would she have been on the podium?

If everyone else skated the same way they did in Nagano then yes, she would have been in contention after a clean short and easily 3rd in the free.

However, if Lulu, Maria or Irina also skated clean or their best of the season, then I am not sure. Tanja had a laboured way of skating (I feel tired watching her stroking around) and was basically skating up and down the ice to do her jumps without much choreography. I have a feeling the judges would mark her 2nd mark way down compared to these 3 if all were clean.

 

[tony]

If everyone else skated the same way they did in Nagano then yes, she would have been in contention after a clean short and easily 3rd in the free.

However, if Lulu, Maria or Irina also skated clean or their best of the season, then I am not sure. Tanja had a laboured way of skating (I feel tired watching her stroking around) and was basically skating up and down the ice to do her jumps without much choreography. I have a feeling the judges would mark her 2nd mark way down compared to these 3 if all were clean.

I think you're looking at it too much in retrospect. Didn't she even have 2 of the 7 judges put her ahead of a solid Lipinski in the Champions Series Final (and note here, I remember Germany was not one of the two)? Tara, even with her shaky season to that point, was still the reigning World Champ and was really good in the Final.

I think there's zero way Tanja loses bronze. And Irina wasn't going to get the presentation mark even without her flip mistake. The judges had a reason to give her 3rd as it was, and she stayed 5th.

 

[Marco]

I think you're looking at it too much in retrospect. Didn't she even have 2 of the 7 judges put her ahead of a solid Lipinski in the Champions Series Final (and note here, I remember Germany was not one of the two)? Tara, even with her shaky season to that point, was still the reigning World Champ and was really good in the Final.

I think there's zero way Tanja loses bronze. And Irina wasn't going to get the presentation mark even without her flip mistake. The judges had a reason to give her 3rd as it was, and she stayed 5th.

Wasn't CSF in Germany? I am sure the crowd played a big part too.

As for Tanja vs Irina for bronze, I wonder how they would place relative to each other if both were clean in the short. Irina held on to 5th with a 2/2. Her other elements were solid. With a 3/2, Irina would definitely be ahead of Lu and might even be ahead of Maria given the skate order. If a clean Tanja can only be 6th behind Michelle, Tara, Irina, Maria and Lu [in this order], she wouldn't control her destiny for the bronze against Irina. Same for Maria if she had come in 3rd after the short. Maria was this close to the bronze with a shaky performance - who knows what would happen to her scores if she hadn't popped the 3toe, or had added the 2nd 3loop in combo.

Tanja obviously would have momentum from a strong CSF, but Irina and Maria would also have just come off a victory over her at Euros too. Irina wasn't going to get the presentation mark even without her flip mistake yes, but I also have a hard time seeing Tanja getting 5.8s and 5.9s with Michelle and Lu in the house and supposedly everyone else going clean (in my hypothetical).

 

[olympic]

Resurrecting this thread to raise another supposition about 'other ladies' in Nagano 98 -

If Midori Ito had been motivated to keep going after 96, would her jump content and skating in 1998 been enough to medal? Was she still able to do 3As? Could she have supplanted or mixed into the Kwan v. Lipinski dynamic? The Olympics were in JPN which was a big motivator for the JSF and Ito obviously decided to give it a shot in 1996.

When you look at her 1996 Nats performance, she executed a 3A. Does anyone have an opinion on where she would have been in Nagano motivated or just skating competently?

 

[tony]

She could've been competitive, of course. But she was miserable at '96 Worlds and was lucky to get into the top 10 with the minimal content she did IMO. I don't think her heart was in it and I'm sure Japan wanted her back to get the ladies' program strong for 1998.

She skated in the Japan Open in 2000 or 2001 and tried a 3A there, and I remember she was very close. She had the goods, but I think she was over the pressures of eligible competition.

 

[Erin]

I think Midori in 1996 wasn't just miserable, but also having health issues. She was painfully thin and having problems with anemia, so I assume that's the reason she was struggling so much with her jumps there.

If Midori was skating at her best, in Japan, and with that panel, who seemed to want to reward speed, technical difficulty, and joy in skating, I think she would have won. But that is such a big if. The Japanese media put Midori under so much pressure in Albertville that she was a shadow of herself and I think it would have been a hundred times worse in Nagano. Given her physical and mental condition in Edmonton, I don't even think there is a scenario where Midori shows up in Nagano and skates her best.

 

[olympic]

I think Midori in 1996 wasn't just miserable, but also having health issues. She was painfully thin and having problems with anemia, so I assume that's the reason she was struggling so much with her jumps there.

If Midori was skating at her best, in Japan, and with that panel, who seemed to want to reward speed, technical difficulty, and joy in skating, I think she would have won. But that is such a big if. The Japanese media put Midori under so much pressure in Albertville that she was a shadow of herself and I think it would have been a hundred times worse in Nagano. Given her physical and mental condition in Edmonton, I don't even think there is a scenario where Midori shows up in Nagano and skates her best.

I guess that is what I was curious about. In all reality, if she even competed, then she would have found herself like 96 probably around 7th again - behind Slutskaya / Butyrskaya but maybe ahead of Gusmeroli who had a bad SP. I am also considering Szewczenko in the mix.

 

[olympic]

Wasn't CSF in Germany? I am sure the crowd played a big part too.

As for Tanja vs Irina for bronze, I wonder how they would place relative to each other if both were clean in the short. Irina held on to 5th with a 2/2. Her other elements were solid. With a 3/2, Irina would definitely be ahead of Lu and might even be ahead of Maria given the skate order. If a clean Tanja can only be 6th behind Michelle, Tara, Irina, Maria and Lu [in this order], she wouldn't control her destiny for the bronze against Irina. Same for Maria if she had come in 3rd after the short. Maria was this close to the bronze with a shaky performance - who knows what would happen to her scores if she hadn't popped the 3toe, or had added the 2nd 3loop in combo.

Tanja obviously would have momentum from a strong CSF, but Irina and Maria would also have just come off a victory over her at Euros too. Irina wasn't going to get the presentation mark even without her flip mistake yes, but I also have a hard time seeing Tanja getting 5.8s and 5.9s with Michelle and Lu in the house and supposedly everyone else going clean (in my hypothetical).

IDK. Couldn't a clean Tanja have beaten Lu in the Nagano SP? They both had the same jump layout: 3Z-2T, 3T and 2A. Tanja's triples were big and airy while by 98, Lu had seriously wonky technique and scores ran from 4.9 (AUS) to 5.6 for tech, but Tanja had a roller axel while Lu's was legit. Lu's spins were always a bit weak even in her better days, but she would have always had a bump on the 2nd mark, and come to think of it, the 3T was always a decent jump for Lu.

 

[Clay]

IDK. Couldn't a clean Tanja have beaten Lu in the Nagano SP? They both had the same jump layout: 3Z-2T, 3T and 2A. Tanja's triples were big and airy while by 98, Lu had seriously wonky technique and scores ran from 4.9 (AUS) to 5.6 for tech, but Tanja had a roller axel while Lu's was legit. Lu's spins were always a bit weak even in her better days, but she would have always had a bump on the 2nd mark, and come to think of it, the 3T was always a decent jump for Lu.

Going back to the post from Louis, Tanja had a lot of built in deductions. Flying spin and lack of steps into a 3toe being the memorable ones. Sometimes closed the step sequence, sometimes not. The double axel never really got any lift off the ice. The judges deducted for all of this. She was getting 5.3/5.4s at 96 Euros and Worlds. 97 Grand Prix 5.4 and 5.5s. At 98 Euros, she won the short but had a 5.2, 5.3, 5.4s, 5.5s. (Also, as a side note, she was one vote away from a second place long program and thus the overall title)

She would have ranked behind Maria in 98, with a wide mix of ordinals for 4th/5th.

In the free, she had a great shot for bronze, if she completed the same jumps as 97 GPF. She had strong nerves, but that was a tough ask on her immune system though, after competing 5 times at that point in the season.

 

[skateboy]

Interesting. You would have put Butyrskaya ahead of Lipinski in the SP? Everyone went on at the time and in retrospect about how Lipinski's jump layout was the most ambitious (only skater with a 3F as the solo jump I think) and how joyful she was in Nagano 98.

Not only did Tara have a 3F as her solo jump (harder than the other competitors), she, along with Maria, were the only ones with a double loop after the 3Lz in her combination. Far harder and riskier than a double toe loop, which everyone else did. As for Maria, her "mature artistry" looked to quite forced to my eyes and her spiral sequence was awful.

For me, Lipinski was far closer to Kwan's 1st place in the short (which I agreed with) than Butyrskaya's 3rd.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Knowing the physical and emotional abuse Midori endured when she was an eligible skater, the happiest I ever saw her was when she competed in Oberstdorf at the ISU Adult Championships.

Ito was finally able to enjoy skating on her own terms.

 

[briancoogaert]

Knowing the physical and emotional abuse Midori endured when she was an eligible skater, the happiest I ever saw her was when she competed in Oberstdorf at the ISU Adult Championships.

Ito was finally able to enjoy skating on her own terms.

Her 1993 World Pro was amazing, she looked so happy there :

Midori Ito 1993 World Pro TP

Midori Ito 1993 World Pro TP

youtu.be

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Her 1993 World Pro was amazing, she looked so happy there :

Midori Ito 1993 World Pro TP

Midori Ito 1993 World Pro TP

youtu.be

I saw her skate that performance in person.

Midori's triple axel covered so much height and distance, too.

 

[Marco]

Not only did Tara have a 3F as her solo jump (harder than the other competitors), she, along with Maria, were the only ones with a double loop after the 3Lz in her combination. Far harder and riskier than a double toe loop, which everyone else did. As for Maria, her "mature artistry" looked to quite forced to my eyes and her spiral sequence was awful.

For me, Lipinski was far closer to Kwan's 1st place in the short (which I agreed with) than Butyrskaya's 3rd.

Comparing the elements one by one, Maria was clearly better by a lot in 3 of them; or 2 or 3 they were even, and for those that Tara was better, hers was only slightly better.

lutz combo - Maria by a mile on the edge alone
solo triple - Tara had the flip but it was slightly shaky, Maria's loop was perfect. I wanna say even or Maria won this.
2axel - Maria by a mile
flying camel - Maria by a mile
layback - both were so-so but Maria held hers longer
combo spin - Tara's was better as Maria lost speed
spirals - Tara's was better but I don't find Maria's awful
steps - about even - Tara had more content but Maria had more opposite steps

For me, the only reason that Maria wasn't 2nd after the short was skate order.

 

[skateboy]

Comparing the elements one by one, Maria was clearly better by a lot in 3 of them; or 2 or 3 they were even, and for those that Tara was better, hers was only slightly better.

lutz combo - Maria by a mile on the edge alone

Totally agree with you on this one.

As for the rest, not so much. I found Tara's spins far better and more visually appealing than Maria's. For me, Maria's spirals really were bad; Tara's were quite respectable. As for the Double Axel: Tara's was low to the ground but compact (the much maligned "roller skating" entrance never bothered me, as there's nothing technically wrong with it); Maria's was bigger but her landing was a bit stiff... I'd rate them the same (but with these obvious differences).

I'll admit to not having been on the Butyrskaya train... although I rooted for her '99 Worlds win.

 

[Coco]

Not only did Tara have a 3F as her solo jump (harder than the other competitors), she, along with Maria, were the only ones with a double loop after the 3Lz in her combination. Far harder and riskier than a double toe loop, which everyone else did. As for Maria, her "mature artistry" looked to quite forced to my eyes and her spiral sequence was awful.

For me, Lipinski was far closer to Kwan's 1st place in the short (which I agreed with) than Butyrskaya's 3rd.

I've always thought that it was a mistake for Michelle to 'water down' her solo jump from Nationals to Nagano. It drew attention to Lipinski's superior degree of difficulty. Who knows if it impacted the scores in the SP, but I have to wonder if it made some of the judges who put Kwan first in the SP doubt themselves after the fact or at least become more open to the idea that Lipinski might win the FS.

 

[olympic]

I've always thought that it was a mistake for Michelle to 'water down' her solo jump from Nationals to Nagano. It drew attention to Lipinski's superior degree of difficulty. Who knows if it impacted the scores in the SP, but I have to wonder if it made some of the judges who put Kwan first in the SP doubt themselves after the fact or at least become more open to the idea that Lipinski might win the FS.

It is strictly conjecture but I often wonder the same thing: If MK had done a little more in the SP, would it politically persuaded any judge in the LP. The AUS and HUN judges had MK -0.1 on the tech mark in the LP. If they gave her 5.8/5.9 MK beats Tara on a tiebreaker and has a 5-4 win

 

[VGThuy]

Irina Rodnina, I believe it was her, said Frank should have just went to her to provide some vodka to some of the Eastern Euro judges as they didn't care which American won.

 

[olympic]

Irina Rodnina, I believe it was her, said Frank should have just went to her to provide some vodka to some of the Eastern Euro judges as they didn't care which American won.

Wasn't that TAT? I think she said that since the RUS judge didn't have any irons in the fire, he could've been thus persuaded

 

[VGThuy]

I thought it was Rodnina because she taught at Ice Castles for a while. Unless I’m getting that old and misremembering things.

 

[Marco]

It is strictly conjecture but I often wonder the same thing: If MK had done a little more in the SP, would it politically persuaded any judge in the LP. The AUS and HUN judges had MK -0.1 on the tech mark in the LP. If they gave her 5.8/5.9 MK beats Tara on a tiebreaker and has a 5-4 win

I often wonder what if she had the 3toe3toe.

 

[olympic]

I often wonder what if she had the 3toe3toe.

In the SP or LP? Because I consider that if she had a solid 3T-3T in the LP and was a little more on top of her 3F, she probably would have garnered straight 5.8 on tech marks, and beaten Tara 5-4. The AUT, RUS, UKR, and FRA judges had Tara at 5.9/5.9. I am not sure MK could have ever claimed those judges. MK skating first put Tara at an advantage because I think the judges felt the World Champ might deliver, also based on her skate in the SP, and thus left room after MK. The US judge might have given out 5.9/5.9 for MK though. That was an internal thing

 

[Marco]

In the SP or LP? Because I consider that if she had a solid 3T-3T in the LP and was a little more on top of her 3F, she probably would have garnered straight 5.8 on tech marks, and beaten Tara 5-4. The AUT, RUS, UKR, and FRA judges had Tara at 5.9/5.9. I am not sure MK could have ever claimed those judges. MK skating first put Tara at an advantage because I think the judges felt the World Champ might deliver, also based on her skate in the SP, and thus left room after MK. The US judge might have given out 5.9/5.9 for MK though. That was an internal thing

LP ofcourse. She never did that program with a 3toe3toe, I also wonder what her final 3toe would become - another 2axel?

 

[SmallFairy]

Her 3 toe was one of the jumps causing her pain because of the stress fracture in her foot. In one of Brennan’s book it’s described how Michelle did 3 loop/3loop combos in practice, since it caused less pain.

 

[bardtoob]

Michelle Kwan's 3Lp/3Lp in an official practice, which apparently caused an episode of 14 year old Tara having a meltdown and her coach explaining to her she couldn't keep others from doing the same jump combinations she does.

I don't think Kwan ever did the 3Lp/3Lp seriously enough to put it in a program, but it certainly quieted criticism that she was only good at toe jumps.

On the other hand, had the judges not basically told Team Kwan in 1995 that all she needed was make-up and a pretty dress to win, Kwan might have kept training the 3A. Apparently it was going to be tested at events like the 1995 Metropolitan Open. However, I don't think it would have survived her physical growth in 1996-97, when her 2A started to lose the height, distance, and running edge she had been known for.