Opining on IJS scoring system: 5 calls to action by Jackie Wong - agree/disagree/your suggestions?

Jump base values need to be re-evaluated = lowered several tenths across the board. I also wouldn't mind seeing the step sequence base value increased (doubled even). Get rid of the choreographic sequence; it's mostly a throw-away element anyway, especially when it's worth 2 points. Judges don't even know how to score those and at this juncture only a very few skaters actually make it choreographically meaningful and interesting.

Make falls more costly in the base values (more than under-rotations).

Mostly just train the judges because many of them have lost the plot...
 
At least Jackie's a passionate fan who is taking an activist approach to providing some common sense suggestions. Would that head-in-the-sand power brokers would pull their heads up and shake some of the sand out of their ears and actually listen. Not only should they lend more than an ear to Jackie, but also to coaches and to others in the skating community who have some historical knowledge, practical understanding as well as common sense wisdom to impart.
 
caseyedwards said:
His suggestions are written in total isu style language and therefore seem very weak!
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No, they are not. They are written in very accessible and knowledgeable language.

All of them are excellent ideas. I would add #6 - if a judge or official is found to have cheated, minimum of one year suspension. If a judge or official cheats a second time, they're banned for life. As I've said before, even the best judging system won't be effective or fair if the system's users are corrupt.
 
I agree with all of Jackie’s points as well as those noted above regarding cheating judges and increasingly the points for step sequences. These are the types of changes skating needs verses most of what the ISU comes up with. The changes in the bullet points could not come soon enough!
 
-Cap the number of jump elements that receive a 2nd half bonus to avoid ridiculously unbalanced back-loaded programs

-Have a separate judging panel for PCS (in fact, I'd like to see one judge for each of the program component scores, which might force marks outside the very narrow corridor we see today)

-Differentiate "falls" better - two hands down is not the same as wiping out and smacking your body against the ice
 
BittyBug said:
-Cap the number of jump elements that receive a 2nd half bonus to avoid ridiculously unbalanced back-loaded programs

-Have a separate judging panel for PCS (in fact, I'd like to see one judge for each of the program component scores, which might force marks outside the very narrow corridor we see today)

-Differentiate "falls" better - two hands down is not the same as wiping out and smacking your body against the ice
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as well as sliding across the ice sometimes slamining into the boards and still getting PCS's of over 9 in performance and interrpetation
 
I love all of these suggestions!

The replay camera problem is ridiculous. Can't the ISU use the TV camera angles? For some US Sports (College Football/Basketball at least) the referees have access to their own cameras as well as all of the TV camera angles of every play. That gives them an additional 3-5 angles and zoom options for each play (element in skating). What's even more fun is that for some games, because the replay footage is from the network, you can see the exact clips and speeds that the referees are requesting for review as they're reviewing it. So you can see it from the angle(s) the referee is considering at the same time as the referee. Imagine if we had that in skating - I bet it would explain a lot about some calls.

I also love the bonus scoring penalty idea. What's the point of having a bonus for jumps in the second half if you're getting a lot of sloppy jumps? I had never thought of it the way Jackie does, but I like where he's coming from and I believe that his idea should at least be considered.

I was surprised to see the last part - that only classroom training is used. In the US, all judges are required to "trial judge" a certain number of competitions. That way they can ensure new judges are judging in line with established standards before putting them in to judge competitions. All judges are also evaluated based on how well they adhere to standards of judging. Coaches are also welcome to submit complaints to USFSA if they notice any member of a judging panel is making mistakes - even at a small local competition.
I know it's not realistic in all countries - particularly with those in smaller federations and fewer domestic competitions - but perhaps there should be a test/exam to license all judges and re-certify them with each change in the system? Like maybe the ISU can provide clips of elements and ask judges to assign a GOE to each (with the correct answer being the GOE that element should have based on the bullet system) and then have the judges watch programs and assign PCS (with the correct answer being a 0.5 or 1 point range around each "technically correct" PCS mark based on ISU standards for each mark). Based on a judge's score, they can be certified to judge events. Ie. those judges who score >90% will be allowed to judge internationally at Senior B's and Junior Events, >95% can do GPs and Worlds/Olympics.
 
One caution to adding more cameras and judges: IMO if the ISU mandates it, then it should be for the highest levels only.

I know each federation has a choice on how to implement IJS, but competition costs (and therefore entry fees) have skyrocketed since IJS due to the number of officials required. It’s hard for non-elite skaters to afford competitions now if they skate under IJS.
 
The problem with the replay as described above is that it has become so bad in college football that the games take forever. Allowing unlimited replay only means that we will be there for 10 minutes after every four minute skate.

And as has been proven on here if you replay something long enough and slow enough you can find something wrong with every skater. So replay could easily be used to ding skaters judges don’t like while still rewarding skaters they do
 
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I really liked the idea of more cameras and also I think they should slight revamp the criteria on pcs components. Those with better than average skating skills, who skate with power, speed and edge quality should be rewarded more. Also, judges should somehow receive survey on their work and have to explain their marks. Also, attempt to recruit more judges to figure skating who are former skaters. The sport needs more diversity in general, but hopefully it can start with the judges.
 
If I was making changes, these would be the top of my list

1) separate judging panel for PCS
The program components assess different aspects of skating, but generally skaters get the same or similar PCS marks across the board even if they have different PC strengths and weaknesses. This change would not have to be a huge increase in cost: just switch from 9 judges to 10 and have 5 judge TES and 5 judge PCS.

2) change the formula for base value of combination jumps
A 3A-3T and solo 3F should not be equal in worth to a 3F-3T and solo 3A. The first is infinitely harder than the second. Make each combination have its own value commiserate to its difficulty.

3) limit the number of jumps that can receive bonus in the second half of the FS to four jumping passes. Get rid of the bonus altogether in the SP.
 
The technical panel should be allowed to use slow-motion to review pre-rotation. It makes no sense to allow slow-mo review of under-rotation at landing but disallow slow-mo review of pre-rotation at takeoff. Additionally, not only the edge of entrance but the pick of takeoff of a jump should be scrutinized.

Since Shoma Uno pioneers the 180 pre-rotation and turning a toe pick into an edge push at takeoff, the Shoma technique is used by more and more skaters to cheat. The end result could be we'll no longer see correct takeoff in the future.
 
Totally against making up some more complex rules for combinations. The goal is to make the system more clear, not more convoluted!

Also the number of jdhes needs to be increased to 11, so there is a components panel or 6 and a technical panel of 5 or something of the like.

I too have no idea how a program with even one fall can get anything over 7.50 for performance component. A program with a fall is NOT a good performance.
 
http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2017/12/27/opining-on-the-isu-judging-system-5-calls-to-action
2. Properly recalibrating elements and components
It's been pretty obvious for a few years now that the technical elements have disproportionately outweighed program components. One of the potential solutions is to bring down the values of the harder elements (e.g., quads). But if certain elements are going to be brought down, all elements have to be brought down proportionally as well.
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Eys, but program components need to be recalibrated as well.

This is what earned PCS of 78.78 for a Men's Free Skate this season.

This is what earned PCS of 78.78 for a Men's Free Skate ten seasons ago.

Enough said. :COP:
 
I have wondered this for quite a few years now but I really have to wonder why the technology doesn't exist (or the investment in the technological development hasn't been made) to determine from a chip in either the blade or the boot, the # of rotations and edge takeoff. It would certainly take a lot of the human error out of the equation and likely eliminate the need for some of these lengthy reviews.
 
Vagabond said:
Eys, but program components need to be recalibrated as well.

This is what earned PCS of 78.78 for a Men's Free Skate this season.

This is what earned PCS of 78.78 for a Men's Free Skate ten seasons ago.

Enough said. :COP:
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I was expecting Poeta.

Poeta got less.

Jackie's suggestions are spot-on. I especially like the ones involving bonuses and innovative/difficult features.
 
I really like most of his ideas.

And, I had no idea the judges had only 1 replay camera. Here I was thinking they were blatantly disregarding what we at home were shown in favour of their own agenda (lol, still prob the case sometimes), but now I can see how they can get it wrong!! Don't other sports already use pro tv camera angles? For big events, it only makes sense. In the ladies event where they havent reached into quad territory, checking edges is a big deal....

Judges really should learn to separate PCS scores...
 
Go Jackie! Save us from Janny's ad nauseam "tano" jumps and Sotskova's 'chicken comb" variation on every single jump.

Agreement that Ararat and Poeta are still among the best IJS programs ever. Underscored on PCS!
 
Vagabond said:
Lambiel made a couple of mistakes in that Free Skate that cost him on PCS.

He scored 80.00 in PCS for this. :swoon:

Jorik Hendrickx scored 80.00 in PCS for this FS this season. :shuffle:

And I lurves me some Hendrickx. :shuffle:
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Should have been higher even with mistakes.

How much would Poeta score today? I think once that question is answered, PCS can just be calibrated accordingly.
 
This is a great article by Jackie. He’s a rockstar. :40beers:

Sylvia said:
Art vs. athleticism: Has ice skating pushed it too far? Four American Olympic champions [Button, Fleming, Boitano & Lipinski] debate the merits of the quadruple jump and the new judging system
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This will be the fourth Olympics and fourteenth World Championships conducted using IJS. Can we PLEASE stop referring to it as new?

This was an interesting article, I liked the teleconference format, but it was way too short. Button, god love him, seems stuck in the past (which he totally deserves to do!) but didn’t even attempt to respond to Boitano’s response about skating always being about jumps.

Peggy thinks of skating as art first, sport second. I agree with Boitano on almost everything, and Tara only had one quote, so whatever. :)
 
This will be the fourth Olympics and fourteenth World Championships conducted using IJS. Can we PLEASE stop referring to it as new?
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It's actually been longer since IJS was first implemented (fall 2003 at Nebelhorn) than it was between the abolition of figures in international competition (1990) and the introduction of IJS. :eek:
 
BittyBug said:
I would give Lambiel high marks for IN and PE but outside of the footwork sequences there was a lot of two-foot skating and static posing and really very few complex turns.
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That sounds like quite a few of the programs that score 8s and 9s these days.

Anyway, this is my problem with what has become the IJS approach. There is more to program construction than how many complex turns it has (the ISU seems to agree). At the very least Poeta should be right up there for choreography/composition as well as IN and P&E. I think Lambiel also hit quite a few of the points for SS and TR.

Sometimes it's nice to see a position held, whether it's a running edge out of a jump or a choreographic highlight.
 
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