Only an act of quad can stop Nathan Chen and the ridiculousness- Toronto Star Article

[Meoima]

I just did a calculation and the average pcs score is 83.9. The median is 84.07. Unless you think the average skater did 3 quads and Chen's 3 extra quads gave him 3 extra points...

Even if you give him the median pcs score, which is 84 and change, he still would have won the free. Even if you give him the bottom 25% percentile pcs which is 80 according to my spreadsheet, he still would have had the same placement.

Ge most certainly shouldn't get 10 points higher. Neither should rippon unless only above waist body movement count as artistry.

I think you can't stand chen and that is fine. But the skaters whom you think are better are not great and may be even average to other fans like me imho.

eta: giving statistics based on excel

oh someone is dreaming. Did I complain anything about Nathan's 5th placement at Olympics? I was saying his PCS has been too high this season EVEN BEFORE THE OLYMPIC. His skating, transitions, presentation simply do not reach the number 82 in many cases but he still got 87-89. Had it been lower he might have lost a couple of competitions which I think deservingly anyway for example GPF.

And since when too much PCS means it has to do with the placement? I guess you IMAGE that complaining about PCS = Placement issue.

Lol no one complains about placement yet until you brought it up. I am saying his skating is not there yet to get those PCS, nothing about his placement.

 

[jlai]

oh someone is dreaming. Did I complain anything about Nathan's 5th placement at Olympics? I was saying his PCS has been too high this season EVEN BEFORE THE OLYMPIC. His skating, transitions, presentation simply do not reach the number 82 in many cases but he still got 87-89. Had it been lower he might have lost a couple of competitions which I think deservingly anyway for example GPF.

And since when too much PCS means it has to do with the placement? I guess you IMAGE that complaining about PCS = Placement issue.

Lol no one complains about placement yet until you brought it up. I am saying his skating is not there yet to get those PCS, nothing about his placement.

I don't image a complaint, lol.

Nathan didn't get 89 this season in pcs internationally this season. 87 and 88 yes. 89 no. PCS is not a set in stone number that is fixed across competitions. Within each competition there can be debates about how much pcs should be relative to each other's pcs. SS may not change a lot, but other components can be changed by a skater who does better or worse in each competition. We can go on and on but without rewatching everyone in that competition it's hard to make a good point. (We can always selectively remember what we like or don't like in each skater, but that wouldn't be fair pcs judging)

I didn't say you complain about placement, but you are harping on a non consequential point because it doesn't change anything in outcome. There are more worthy outrage(s), like if someone is robbed of a medal, a placement, or something because of wrong pcs points.

The point spread for the top 25% pcs (87) and bottom 25% tier (80) is 7 points in this Olympics - the difference of a triple jump. The influence of TES is off kilter and the point spread of PCS is not large enough. But the issue wasn't rewarding Nathan high pcs relative to other skaters this Olympics. The issue is the lack of point spread. eta: if the point spread is one triple between a good pcs skater and a not good pcs skater, then whether Nathan is top 25% pcs or bottom 25% is moot.

 

[chapis]

It is impressive that Nathan landed 6 quads, but honestly, I am not impressed by his performance at all. It is not a program that I intend to see again. But he has a lot of potential. I am sure we will see growth this new quad because he is such hard worker. Even taking into account just jumps, I prefer to watch Boyang´s jumps.

 

[screech]

Let's not forget that Nathan is only 18 years old, 3 seasons into his senior-level career (including the truncated 2015-2016 season when he was injured at Nationals and skipped Worlds). Go back and look at the videos of early Javi, Daisuke, Yagudin, Kulicka, even Stojko who was known as "only a jumper." As they aged their skating became more fluid and their presentation more nuanced and timed.

To be fair, though he didn't have as much flair and control as now, at 18 Javi showed a lot more true PCS potential than IMO Nathan is showing now. The blade work, the use of the whole body - that was all present to build upon, as was his ability to portray a character.

Javi 2010 FP - Pirates of the Caribbean (I still love the drunken pirate step sequence)

 

[VGThuy]

I was looking forward to the next four years but not if the forums are just going to be about this.

 

[jlai]

To be fair, though he didn't have as much flair and control as now, at 18 Javi showed a lot more true PCS potential than IMO Nathan is showing now. The blade work, the use of the whole body - that was all present to build upon, as was his ability to portray a character.

Javi 2010 FP - Pirates of the Caribbean (I still love the drunken pirate step sequence)

He was very likely undermarked that Olympics. I remember wondering why he was below Abbott. Other than the fact that Abbott was the reigning champ and is supposed to be artistic enough to have high pcs, even when he skates poorly (and I was a fan of his)

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I think Nathan has the ability to earn his PCS marks because that short program is pretty amazing when he skates it clean. Clearly, for the free he focused on quads. I think that's a fair strategy for this Olympics given the current list of competitors.

 

[Aerobicidal]

I was looking forward to the next four years but not if the forums are just going to be about this.

I wouldn't worry too much. I'm sure there will also be long discussions and arguments about such gripping topics as whether Ross Miner was robbed, what Ross would have scored in PyeongChang, just how many pounds overweight Nathan Chen was in PyeongChang, the international repercussions of the 2018 Olympics splatfests all due to NBC's corrupt $cheduling politiks, foods people don't like, and Shoma Uno's mental stability.

 

[DFO]

Some people like oranges. Other prefer apples. There are cat lovers and others who can't go thru life without their dogs. Same thing for figure skating There are 2 kind of people. Those who value technique and others who are wanting an artistic performance. If you get a wonderful theatrical choreo, the technicians will comment only with "they barey land their doubles". But a skaters doing great triples or even quads, will be qualified as boring from the artistic side, because he will barely skate from one jump to another.

We probably all agree that figure skating should be the addition of both of these talents. But some skaters will never be good at jumps while others will remain boring. What is your dressing?

 

[becca]

Some people like oranges. Other prefer apples. There are cat lovers and others who can't go thru life without their dogs. Same thing for figure skating There are 2 kind of people. Those who value technique and others who are wanting an artistic performance. If you get a wonderful theatrical choreo, the technicians will comment only with "they barey land their doubles". But a skaters doing great triples or even quads, will be qualified as boring from the artistic side, because he will barely skate from one jump to another.

We probably all agree that figure skating should be the addition of both of these talents. But some skaters will never be good at jumps while others will remain boring. What is your dressing?

For me my main thing is this is a sport. It is figure skating not figure jumping so I don't think some did quad lutz Hanyu didn't so Hanyu should not win.

But jumps are a huge part of the sport and if many men are doing quads including quad lutzs a quad should be necessary and it's harder to do quads and all the other stuff cleanly.

I also look at Jason Brown and Misha Ge and think to myself would their PCS switch if they swapped countries and that makes me uncomfortable. I like both skaters.

I can appreciate both Brown and Ge for what they are but I don't think they should be winning titles and in Browns case hearing it is necessary to hold him up over the Zhous gets me going.

Now you can debate underrotations some but you can't debate Hanyu attempted four quads.

I am thrilled with the podium because I see the three as complete skaters but I also think the sporting aspect of doing 6 quads should not be pooh pooed.

 

[Nadya]

I don't understand the argument that too many quads use up too much time, leaving nothing for the rest of the elements. They used to say the same thing about all jumps. It takes perhaps a second longer to do a quad vs. a triple. It's not like not doing a quad saves loads of time.

 

[becca]

I don't understand the argument that too many quads use up too much time, leaving nothing for the rest of the elements. They used to say the same thing about all jumps. It takes perhaps a second longer to do a quad vs. a triple. It's not like not doing a quad saves loads of time.

I think it is more it uses energy.

 

[screech]

I don't understand the argument that too many quads use up too much time, leaving nothing for the rest of the elements. They used to say the same thing about all jumps. It takes perhaps a second longer to do a quad vs. a triple. It's not like not doing a quad saves loads of time.

The focus on the set-up interrupts the program for many. The power-stroking into it. The longer, telegraphed entry. For many, yes including Nathan, this interrupts the program. Then there are some like Yuzuru and (IMO even more so) Javier who just integrate the elements into the program without making it so obvious what's coming up.

 

[attyfan]

I just wish the ISU would do some research into jump-related injury before doing things like re-adjusting the rules and point values assigned to jumps. For example, if research shows that loop jumps result in more injury than toe jumps, the ISU could ban or limit the loops. If a specific way of landing a quad is shown to result in less injury than other technicques, the ISU could prohibit quads at the junior level and make demonstration of proper technique a condition of moving up to seniors. The idea that someone as young as Nathan could be risking his long term health -- without full knowledge of all the risks -- is something that I find rather disturbing.

 

[Nadya]

The focus on the set-up interrupts the program for many. The power-stroking into it. The longer, telegraphed entry. For many, yes including Nathan, this interrupts the program. Then there are some like Yuzuru and (IMO even more so) Javier who just integrate the elements into the program without making it so obvious what's coming up.

But it's not like no one telegraphed jumps before quads. This complaint is as old as jumping itself. Some skaters telegraph triple jumps, some make it look easy. Why is this a new issue?

 

[MAXSwagg]

I just wish the ISU would do some research into jump-related injury before doing things like re-adjusting the rules and point values assigned to jumps. For example, if research shows that loop jumps result in more injury than toe jumps, the ISU could ban or limit the loops. If a specific way of landing a quad is shown to result in less injury than other technicques, the ISU could prohibit quads at the junior level and make demonstration of proper technique a condition of moving up to seniors. The idea that someone as young as Nathan could be risking his long term health -- without full knowledge of all the risks -- is something that I find rather disturbing.

That is not the job of the ISU to regulate. It is the job of the skater, coaches, and team to evaluate that risk. If skaters are just rushing to learn quads and chucking them in the programs without working on the fundamental technique of jumps, that is that skater and their team's problem. When you see the jumping technique of Javier, Yuzuru especially, Kolyada, even Patrick Chan at his peak, they all have very pure jumping technique. Others like Shoma do not have good technique and it's a surprise Shoma hasn't had significant injuries yet. Even Nathan's quads in most instances hit the ice with a thud and a jerk, with his upper body pitched forward.

PCS is generally inflated for everyone. TES overload would be balanced out if component marks were properly awarded, and a more definitive distinction was made between those with superior skills and this with only "good" or "average". Really, the only ones who should be consistently in the 9s are Chan, Hanyu, and Fernandez for good skates.

 

[MAXSwagg]

But it's not like no one telegraphed jumps before quads. This complaint is as old as jumping itself. Some skaters telegraph triple jumps, some make it look easy. Why is this a new issue?

It is an issue because judges are not properly reflecting it in the transitions component. Just looking at an overview of the programs, Boyang and Nathan have very little complex footwork in both of their programs, and I would not have them over 7.75 for that component.

 

[Nadya]

It is an issue because judges are not properly reflecting it in the transitions component. Just looking at an overview of the programs, Boyang and Nathan have very little complex footwork in both of their programs, and I would not have them over 7.75 for that component.

So make them. Why is this the quad problem? If what you are saying is true, then the issue will self-adjust because poor scoring for telegraphed quads will make skaters either not telegraph or not do quads.

 

[attyfan]

That is not the job of the ISU to regulate. It is the job of the skater, coaches, and team to evaluate that risk. If skaters are just rushing to learn quads and chucking them in the programs without working on the fundamental technique of jumps, that is that skater and their team's problem. When you see the jumping technique of Javier, Yuzuru especially, Kolyada, even Patrick Chan at his peak, they all have very pure jumping technique. Others like Shoma do not have good technique and it's a surprise Shoma hasn't had significant injuries yet. Even Nathan's quads in most instances hit the ice with a thud and a jerk, with his upper body pitched forward.
...

First -- it should be the ISU's job to regulate, to insure it is done. Too many kids are hurt because people assume that preventing harm is someone else's job. Second -- how can coaches do their job if they don't have full information? I don't think any coaches are deliberately teaching poor techniques; I think instead that many coaches teach the way they were taught -- which may no longer be appropriate. The ISU is the only group I know of that can get all the coaches to compare notes (different technicques; different injury rates; etc) and determine if certain techniques result in less injury, or, at least provide all coaches information that may help.

 

[Tavi]

But it's not like no one telegraphed jumps before quads. This complaint is as old as jumping itself. Some skaters telegraph triple jumps, some make it look easy. Why is this a new issue?

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not about telegraphing one jump. It’s about a skater spending the entire first 2 + minutes of a FS setting up for and jumping 4 quads in a row and doing basically nothing else. It’s about the skater leaving out most transitions and performance in order to conserve energy for those jumps. Some people may find that exciting. I’m not one of them.

 

[Nadya]

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not about telegraphing one jump. It’s about a skater spending the entire first 2 + minutes of a FS setting up for and jumping 4 quads in a row and doing basically nothing else. It’s about the skater leaving out most transitions and performance in order to conserve energy for those jumps. Some people may find that exciting. I’m not one of them.

I am not. I understand what people say they don't like about the program with too many quads. My argument is that it is not unique to quads; that happened and happens still with skaters whose arsenal is limited to triples.

 

[overedge]

@dramagrrl If the editors at the Star are so convinced that the sun shines out of Rosie's butt, would it be any more effective to e.g. go to the ad department and threaten to boycott advertisers (online or print) or cancel subscriptions, when she writes a particularly offensive piece?

 

[dramagrrl]

@dramagrrl If the editors at the Star are so convinced that the sun shines out of Rosie's butt, would it be any more effective to e.g. go to the ad department and threaten to boycott advertisers (online or print) or cancel subscriptions, when she writes a particularly offensive piece?

Possibly more effective than writing to her editors, but probably not that effective overall. Rosie creates controversy, which gets people talking about her, which then gets people talking about the paper. In this day and age, when print journalism is dying, anything that gets people talking about the paper, even if the talk is mostly negative (and I say mostly because Rosie does have a fair number of hardcore supporters - my closest tie to the paper used to regularly get letters from crazies who would always end their rants with "No one at your pinko paper knows how to write except for Ms. DiManno! You should all take lessons from her!" ) is considered a good thing. She also had a heyday about twenty years ago when she did somehow manage to write some hard-hitting, well-written pieces and won awards for them, and any writer who wins awards is always going to have more security at a paper than those who don't.

Bottom line - Rosie is a mainstay at one of the country's few successful papers in an age of newspapers dying. If they aren't going to get rid of her because she is facing criminal assault charges, they definitely aren't going to get rid of her because a few hundred figure skating fans threaten to cancel subscriptions.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

They withdrew her charges.

I think DiManno has the stupidest looking photo ever. Also, how did her assault and battery charges go?

 

[lala]

I'm waiting for a Canadian skater who is like Nathan or Vincent with a lot of quads. The Canadian media will probably change their views. In the US media Nathan became the world's best skater.

 

[overedge]

The Star's editors have cracked down on Rosie at least once before:
https://www.imediaethics.org/filipi...et-rosie-dimannos-mayweather-pacquiao-column/

 

[overedge]

I'm waiting for a Canadian skater who is like Nathan or Vincent with a lot of quads. The Canadian media will probably change their views. In the US media Nathan became the world's best skater.

Have you ever heard of Elvis Stojko?

 

[lala]

Have you ever heard of Elvis Stojko?

of course...I'm an ooooooold FS fan. I remember Kovalyev or Jan Hoffman . Elvis was before the IJS. I just wanted to say https://twitter.com/chiburahakkai/status/953067006864982016

 

[overedge]

of course...I'm an ooooooold FS fan. I remember Kovalyev or Jan Hoffman . Elvis was before the IJS. I just wanted to say https://twitter.com/chiburahakkai/status/953067006864982016

Elvis was before the IJS but he was one of the first skaters to become known for consistently doing quads. So I have no idea why you think Canada is waiting for a skater with a lot of quads, or why you think that the Canadian media doesn't know about quads in skating. In any case, Rosie DiManno certainly isn't representative of all Canadian sports journalists.

 

[Seerek]

What is Rosie going to write if Gabi/Guillaume win Olympic gold? The mind wonders (and wanders....).