New Artistic Event - The Peggy Fleming Trophy (Broadmoor)

[misskarne]

Saw this info and thought it sounds neat! Kinda like the opposite for the Aerial Challenge. and it's nothing to sneeze at in terms of prize money: $3000 for first!

It looks like a 3:30 (+/- 10) program, for Juniors and Seniors, evaluated mostly on artistry. The required elements are:

- 3 jumps
- 3 spins
- 1 footwork sequence
- 1 signature element

These will have a fixed value and get evaluated in GOE only relative to their placement in the program (their artistic relevance).

The Broadmoor website has more info here.

Is it too much to hope that Joshua might be well enough for this? they didn't say triples, after all. he could do singles. this event was tailor made for a josh/jason head to head. *droops miserably*

 

[Sylvia]

Bumping up this GSD thread to post Brooklee Han's article (with photos) on the inaugural Peggy Fleming Trophy that took place at the Broadmoor Open last month: https://www.ifsmagazine.com/peggy-fleming-trophy-an-artistic-pursuit/

Timothy Dolensky of the Atlanta Figure Skating Club won the competition with a score of 109.04. He was the only competitor to receive a standing ovation. Camden Pulkinen of the Broadmoor Skating Club (100.14 points) and Jordan Moeller of the Northern Ice Skating Club (97.50 points) placed second and third, respectively.
Dolensky performed a powerful and emotional program set to Dan Stevens “Evermore” from the movie “Beauty and the Beast.”
“I definitely knew what I was going to be skating to right from the very beginning. This song was perfect in every way for this event,” said Dolensky who collaborated with choreographer, Daniil Barantsev, on the program.
Dolensky’s routine included a triple flip, a triple loop, and a double axel-half loop-triple Salchow. While all his spins were solid, he finished the routine with a dizzying headless spin. “I thought my performance today was great. It was so much fun to skate that program in such a big arena,” Dolensky said. “When I first heard about the event I just knew it was something I wanted to be part of. This seemed like an event that would exercise everyone’s creativity and I think that is something that our sport needs a little bit more of right now.”

Here's Tim Dolensky's "Evermore" performance (from the webcast): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH6Mj_uIMC8

ETA:

https://twitter.com/brookleeh95/status/1015054930422435841

I had a great time watching and reporting on the Peggy Fleming Trophy at this year’s Broadmoor Open for @ifsmagazine We are in for some exciting changes if the ISU decides to follow through on the proposed rule changes.

 

[Sylvia]

https://twitter.com/brookleeh95/status/1015054930422435841

I had a great time watching and reporting on the Peggy Fleming Trophy at this year’s Broadmoor Open for @ifsmagazine We are in for some exciting changes if the ISU decides to follow through on the proposed rule changes.

Relevant excerpt from the article:

Fleming, a longtime member of the Broadmoor Figure Skating Club, attended last year’s competition and one afternoon she and Tanger met with Fabio Bianchetti, the chair of the International Skating Union (ISU) Single and Pairs Skating Committee. During that meeting, Bianchetti mentioned the ISU was considering changing the structure of competitions after the 2022 Winter Olympic Games. “He said that instead of having a short program or a short dance they would have an artistic program and a technical program,” Tanger said. “The programs would be of equal length, with each about three and a half minutes. As he was explaining this, Peggy and I looked at each other and said, ‘There it is.’

“Peggy has some really strong feelings about artistry. She has watched the sport evolve away from the artistic side and as we all know, that was her trademark. So we decided to pursue the concept of an artistic program.”

Re-posting here:

(My own opinion--this format will work best for standalone events.)

 

[MAXSwagg]

Bye bye figure skating in the Olympics...

 

[aftershocks]

ITA with @clairecloutier. If this is in fact the direction the ISU wants to explore, they need to begin experimenting with it now on the local, national, and international levels. I personally do not think their current rules changes are in any way an effective step toward the proposed post-2022 plan. First off, there are too many conflicts of interest among federations. The ISU needs to put together somehow an unbiased committee of coaches, officials, technical specialists, former skaters, current skaters, and choreographers. Obviously, there's overlap among those categories of people. But inclusiveness in the planning, experimenting and decisionmaking stages is crucial. The lack of having approached the current rules changes in that manner was a big mistake.

It's good there is finally some inkling of recognition that figure skating is both art and sport, but what is meant by waiting till after 2022 to suddenly drop short programs and short dances for a longer artistic program with a separate technical program? NO. What they needed to have done was to not destroy the professional competitive tour. By doing so, they harmed the careers of all skaters in terms of longevity, growth and income opportunities, especially for those who've moved on from eligible careers but who still have a passion to compete. Some of these skaters have ended up staying in the sport or making comebacks. I don't blame them. But it would enhance the sport as a whole if there was a viable professional tour in place.

The ISU does not need to now incorporate competitive rules once used in the professional ranks in order to solve the complex problems they've caused through willy nilly instituting piecemeal scoring and rules changes that have not worked. Allowing songs with lyrics was a part of the drive to update the sport and to attract more interest and new audiences. That has helped slightly, but it's complicated by the ISU's inability to recognize that they can't suddenly solve longstanding problems they ignored for so long with a hammer and broken nails.

They need to get it through their heads that they have to approach any new proposals going forward through inclusive input and advance testing. They need to stop ramming ill-advised changes through and ending up with more complex crap to figure out, because the changes have only caused more problems.

It remains to be seen what's going to happen this season, and now they are thinking about utilizing a format once utilized in the professional ranks??? I mean with all due respect, Gale Tanger and Peggy Fleming should be advocating more for veteran skaters who still want to compete by helping launch a viable professional tour instead of blindly thinking a full-on artistic program which scraps the short program, and a separate technical program is actually going to work for the eligible ranks!

I agree with @clairecloutier that such a format would only work well for standalone events, and not for the entire eligible competitive structure. That's because it takes time for many younger skaters to mature and to develop artistic chops. Such artistic development and growth should be encouraged by allowing free programs to be free! The entire reason we have short programs is for technical requirements to be featured. The free programs were supposed to be free. The ISU failed to recognize that when they instituted COP/IJS and constant rules changes as stopgap measures, which is why we are in the present conundrum. The current competitive structure is a leaky ship that has been patched up ineptly for years. The entire structure is about ready to sink at this point. In their mad rush to enact new random rules changes just to keep things awkwardly afloat, ISU honchos have unfortunately ignored the biggest gaping holes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they need to focus on what the sport is about first, and effectively determine exactly what the current most pressing problems are, and then take time to gather inclusive input to find solutions. Next, take time at all levels to test changes. Above all, think about assisting and consulting with federations to develop local and lower level competitions in order to give skaters more opportunities to develop. Feds and the ISU really should think about why skilled, highly talented skaters often have to sit at home because of the depth in their country. Meanwhile, some less skilled skaters get to go to Worlds every year, gain exposure and slowly improve or not, while others with more talent end up having to leave the sport without having the opportunity to offer their contributions in the international competitive arena.

I don't think I have the answers to all these problems. I just think the ISU is too old-fashioned and too closed to seeking fresh outside-the-box ideas and inclusive input, while keeping in mind the sport's important foundations. Neither do they adequately recognize what the problems are, much less how to adequately focus on a plan of repair.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Did someone say Blandover?

I don't think concept will work at all as a replacement for the current competition format.

 

[alchemy void]

I'm shocked, just shocked, that an exclusively "artistic" competition is held and the winner skates to a generic male ballad. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to be an ass to Dolensky--there were some cool moves in there, nice feeling for the music, etc, but holy shit, what a bore.

I would totally be on board with this format as a "pro" competition or even a series of events, but with innovative music choices and choreography. Not the same thing we've all seen many times before.

Gale Tanger and Peggy Fleming should be advocating more for veteran skaters who still want to compete by helping launch a viable professional tour instead of blindly thinking a full-on artistic program which scraps the short program, and a separate technical program is actually going to work for the eligible ranks!

I absolutely agree with you here, although I have an aversion to bold type and has to remove it. If Peggy wants to see old school pro skating, work on creating a couple of professional competitions with freedom to do whatever they want. Hell, have them skate a cumpulsory program to Hat Full of Stars for all I care. But this format has no place in an Olympic sport.

If judges would judge components (and GOE) appropriately, I really feel like IJS would really balance the technical and artistic aspects of skating really well, keeping in mind that figure skating is a sport, first and foremost.

Did someone say Blandover?

You win the comments so far.

 

[aftershocks]

Interesting commentary my friend @alchemy void, which I mostly agree with. LOL, re your not liking bolded text. I understand. I only do it to try and highlight the most important parts of my lengthy rants. I fully admit to having a hard time editing myself because there's actually so much to say, and never enough time or bandwidth...

I am hoping @clairecloutier might find the time to more fully address this latest ISU proposed intent on her blog. You are such an excellent writer Claire, and a lot of people in the sport read your blog. I'm not sure our more worthwhile debates and rants on FSU ever gain credible interest and traction among decisionmakers, aside from a few ideas and gossip making the rounds.

I'm surprised that Gale Tanger and Peggy Fleming don't recognize that this proposal is too close to what the former professional tour was about. Can't they see this won't work for eligible competition, and can't they recognize the reasons why it won't work?!

OTOH, I take a bit of exception to your comment @alchemy void about skating being more sport than art. The fact is figure skating is a unique sport which consciously and specifically balances art and athleticism (even if right now the balance is out of whack because the rules are ineptly written, inexpertly applied and manipulatively judged). If you feel that figure skating is first and foremost mainly a sport, then we need to get rid of the music and the costumes. If we do that, we will have an entirely different sport. Where is Dick Button when we need him? He has repeatedly noted that the debate between art and sport in figure skating has existed since the time the sport began. He's right. The father of figure skating, Jackson Haines, faced that dilemma in the late 1800s. That's why Haines had to leave the U.S. for Vienna, Austria, where skating aficionados welcomed to competitions on ice, the addition of music and bodily expressiveness inspired by dance.

To be honest, there are many other sports* which combine art with athleticism, such as diving and gymnastics. But those sports are less complicated than figure skating which is more distinctly and directly a combination of athletic technique and aesthetics.

Where we are at currently in figure skating has unfortunately been complicated by the poor decisionmaking led by speed skaters who have controlled the sport of figure skating for far too long. I'm not optimistic that figure skating will ever be released from the tight-held grip of speed skating honchos, so an effort needs to be made to educate, charm and persuade those in control to be more inclusive, to understand what figure skating is, and is not. And to find better ways forward that will not end up creating more complicated problems. As it stands now, the sport is staying afloat on the backs of talented young people who are given few opportunities to excel and limited rewards. In the process, many are just pushed to the wayside and trampled over. Even for those who do marginally or substantially succeed, once it's over, it's over and they are left to figure out how to manage the rest of their lives. Not everyone can segue into coaching, choreographing, cruise boat skating, endorsements, entertainment avenues, highly selective & scarce shows or commentating opportunities.

Since the ISU and federations decided to destroy professional competitions out of fear that veteran stars would overshadow the eligible ranks, they need to now recognize that everything is connected. If it's about power and control, then work with veteran skaters to develop a viable professional tour, so that skaters who have reached an impasse can more freely decide to retire and move on. The reason why skaters hedge their options and rarely announce retirement is because they have no viable pro competition opportunities and few lucrative exhibition possibilities once they've reached the pinnacle, and so they don't want to close off the opportunity to return to the arena they've always known and have a hard time giving up. Therefore, some skaters take a break and decide whether to return, while others must leave the sport entirely. This state of affairs, IMHO, is not healthy for the overall growth of the sport.

Develop a viable professional tour
Make the short program suffice for technical requirements, even if by lengthening it slightly
Free the free program for creative innovation & artistic growth -- right now free program layouts are too predictable
Set up an unbiased committee to review current problems & chart ways to test viable solutions
Consider developing a long term plan to revamp the current competitive structure and requirements

There should be a viable senior B competitive structure for lower skill level skaters to have an opportunity to compete. Rethink country-based strictures which should go a long way toward easing the current conflicts of interest. To that effort, put together a separate event that's like Davis Cup in tennis, that would feature country-based competition. And then for major events simply allow skaters to skate and to partner at will, with the most talented rising to the top to compete at the highest level. I think it's rather ironic and instructive that the current Olympic pairs champions won the gold for Germany, when neither were born in Germany, nor have either been German citizens for the majority of their lives.

 

[aftershocks]

You're probably right to a degree @alchemy void about Timothy Dolensky's musical selection. But it was a heartfelt performance and the best among those who competed. There's much more that Timothy can explore, because he's a musical artist with exceptional spinning abilities and well-rounded athletic abilities. It's just that he has to deal with so much depth among U.S. men, as well as the quad specter. Alex Johnson is another artistically gifted U.S. male skater. People call him a throwback because he has all the jumps except quads. Alex worked very hard to acquire the 3-axel, and he's a fully well-rounded skater regardless of the quad being king. I'll betcha that Alex is the skater most skaters both eligible and retired want to watch when he takes the ice! Alex could have competed as an ice dancer (and in fact he has competed in adult ice dance competitions). That reminds me of Charlie White saying during the recent 4CCs commentary that another skater named Timothy, pairs skater Timothy LeDuc, could have been an excellent ice dancer because of his superb movement qualities and expressive abilities.

* To further expand on the other sports I referenced in my prior post:
In fact, tennis players, football players and baseball players also combine elegance and art in their movement, mostly without conscious realization (and they aren't doing it to music). But when we see highlight clips of these athletic feats put together with music, boy don't it sing, as Uncle Dick would say! We can also see that aesthetic dynamic in effect when so many football players take to the dance floor and compete successfully, with many winning the mirror ball trophy!

Michael Jordan is an artist on the basketball court; Roger Federer is an artist on the tennis court; Greg Norman is an artist on the golf course, and there are numerous other examples in various sports. In figure skating: Toller Cranston was an artist on the ice; John Curry was an artist on the ice; John Misha Petkevich was an artist on the ice; Janet Lynn was an artist on the ice; Peggy Fleming was an artist on the ice -- all of these pioneering skating legends and champions (and many more) impacted the growth of figure skating as both art and sport.

These days I count Nathan Chen as a budding artist who is leading the sport into new territory both athletically and artistically (as best he can under the current restrictive limitations with the help of his coach, and with the assistance of talented choreographers, many of whom are former skaters). At his best, Mikhail Kolyada is a bloomin' artist on ice. But so far, alas, he hasn't been at his best that often -- nothing to write home about. Dmitri Aliev also has wonderful artistic and athletic potential, as does Deniss Vasiljevs. We could say that Yuzuru, Patrick and Shoma are artists too at their best, but their artistic journeys have been a bumpy ride in my opinion, chiefly because beautiful suspended quads and flowing movement qualities as inspired by Johnny Weir has been Yuzu's greatest calling card, but without attention to line and extension. Shoma has exquisitely soft, deep knees combined with a flowing movement style all his own, but his skating so far has leaned toward overdramatic one-note flair without much depth, IMHO.

Among male Japanese skaters, it is the one-and-only Daisuke Takahashi who actually best combined superb athleticism with creativity, danceability and an infectious charisma all his own. Dai is one of the very best of his entire generation of skaters, if not arguably the best (even with his momentum having been slowed by injury). Dai absolutely wuzrobbed of being in first place in the sp at the 2010 Olympics. Re their dedicated attention to artistry and athleticism, I also give a huge shout-out to Takahiko Kozuka and Tatsuki Machida.

All credit is due to Patrick Chan for recognizing the importance of focusing on becoming a complete artist. At his best, Patrick was a maestro on the ice in trying to combine his out-of-this-world blade skills with music interpretation and aesthetic movement. Will we ever see someone again like Patrick Chan in the sport of figure skating? Instead of appreciating what he truly brought to the sport, the judges overdid rewarding him for being the first to combine quads with well-rounded skating skills and artistic abilities. But they overdid it which led to the term Chanflation. Patrick's legacy should be greater and less dismissive than that. Another skater whose artistic legacy has unfortunately not been fully recognized is Denis Ten. D10 in his greatest moments was par excellence to the nth degree. He was at his best, The Artist, forever and always. It's sad that D10 wasn't fully rewarded for breaking out of the box in 2013. He was creatively and athletically at the top of his game.

Han Yan as a skater in juniors, had a style very reminiscent of Patrick's in terms of lovely skating skills and ice coverage. But poor Han's development was mismanaged by his fed and then overshadowed by the rise of a quad-jumping compadre (Boyang Jin) who conversely needed a lot of help with his weak skating skills and lack of ability to effectively interpret music. Sure Boyang has come a long way since then, but Han Yan has been thrown to the wayside. Misha Ge has been an exemplary artist and interpreter of music, but his technical and blade skills were never quite as advanced. It goes without saying that Jason Brown is a superb artist with an exquisite ability to interpret music. Let's see where Jason's career will go in the future. Adam Rippon is another great artist, but his skating skills chiefly seen in his labored crossover technique, were lacking. Stephane Lambiel and Jeffrey Buttle must definitely be included on anyone's list of great skating artists. For my money, Jeremy Abbott was and still is the quintessential artist and athlete of his generation, but he was never embraced as such for a variety of reasons. Kudos to Jere-amazin!

 

[nimi]

Finally read Brooklee Han's article about this competition format. Like others here, I'm pretty skeptic about these ISU "artistic program" vs. "technical program" plans...

For the jumps: one toe and one edge jump — both with at least two rotations — were required. The third had to be a combination or creative jump with an unlimited number of rotations. Both double and triple jumps were valued the same by the technical panel but no jump elements were reviewed with respect to the takeoff edge or under-rotation.

I was on board until the words "double and triple jumps were valued the same". Does this really mean 2S and 3S were given the same BV?!

So yeah, some interesting ideas that I'd to see developed further but on the whole, I agree with alchemy void. I'd be fine with this kind of format as a pro-am competition or even series... But is this the kind of new and improved "free skate" portion I'd like to see ISU adopt after 2022? Not really.

 

[giselle23]

Finally read Brooklee Han's article about this competition format. Like others here, I'm pretty skeptic about these ISU "artistic program" vs. "technical program" plans...
I was on board until the words "double and triple jumps were valued the same". Does this really mean 2S and 3S were given the same BV?!

So yeah, some interesting ideas that I'd to see developed further but on the whole, I agree with alchemy void. I'd be fine with this kind of format as a pro-am competition or even series... But is this the kind of new and improved "free skate" portion I'd like to see ISU adopt after 2022? Not really.

The rules aren't set in stone. Triple jumps could be given more value.

 

[bardtoob]

Because they couldn't just increase the base value of spins, choreographic sequences, and weight of PCS ... And not every PCS needs to have the same weight.

... The singles artistic program, as it is described, is just going to be solo ice dance ... What the hell is the current two skater ice dance, if not artistic with some criteria.

 

[aftershocks]

Since I didn't name many female skaters earlier, here's my take on artistry among the ladies. I think there's somewhat of a dearth of artistry these days among the ladies, largely because the sport has over-focused on rewarding young teenybopper phenoms in the ladies' ranks. The main mature recent artists worthy of being named are Satoko Miyahara and Carolina Kostner (but Satoko has serious issues with her jumps, and Kostner is technically disadvantaged at this point in her career). Another thing to note is that a bloomin' artist like Kaetlyn Osmond who is also a great athlete possessing superior ice coverage, speed and huge height on her jumps, was a bit overlooked in the scoring in comparison to the ladies placed ahead of her at the recent Olympics.

Wakaba Higuchi, who has so much to give, was not even thought worthy of sending to the Olympics by her federation. Of the younger ladies internationally, besides Higuchi, perhaps Eunsoo Lim and maybe Marin Honda have artistic and athletic potential, but it remains to be seen. Kaori Sakamoto and Mai Mihara are talented and pleasant to watch, but still developing in a number of areas. Having escaped Eteri, Evgenia Medvedeva has the potential to be a great artist. She needs to work on improving her technique and increasing her speed and ice coverage. I'm not sure about Alina Zagitova, unless she escapes the Oksana Baiul and Elena Sotnikova curse of 'too much, too soon.' As has been complained about ad nauseam, U.S. ladies have yet to break through in recent years with grit, consistency and competitive hunger, for a variety of reasons. But that doesn't mean U.S. ladies lack depth of talent. Someone among them just needs to put it all together. We'll see, if/when that might happen again.

Of course Michelle Kwan is a no-brainer as artist and athlete. The thing about MK is that she was not the best at one element, i.e., not the best spinner (that honor would go to Alissa Czisny), not the best jumper (Irina Slutskaya), not the best in terms of extension and balletic sensibility (that tag goes to Sasha Cohen). But MK was the best at getting every ounce possible out of her abilities and doing it with exemplary grace, elegance and unparalleled competitive fire. She had the ability to touch the hearts of an audience and to create magic from the tips of her fingers to the tips of her skate blades, simply because her own courage, desire and heart were fully involved in her skating.

These days it's a crapshoot as to how skaters will end up developing. So many have their careers cut short through injury and/or lack of competitive opportunities. It's also a crapshoot re ISU decisionmaking.

 

[gkelly]

If the point is to have an artistic program where artistry and audience appeal are more important than technique and athleticism, then it might make sense to allow jumps and not to score them based on difficulty.

That kind of event would not belong in the Olympics. It could merit a world championship, if the ISU wanted to sponsor one (and lesser artistic events leading up to it). But it shouldn't be part of figure skating-as-sport.


If the point is to have a competition format in which the use of skating techniques for artistic purposes and the technical quality of execution outweigh the difficulty of the elements, that could be designed to fit into a sporting competition.

*Allow jumps and reward them according to difficulty, but also make the grades of execution count for more
*Don't use levels for spins, steps, etc., but just give general base values and encourage judges to reward variations that enhance the artistic purpose, and maybe allow them to consider the difficulty in a more holistic way than the tech panel does
*Have some structure to the kind of element slots available, but also include more variety of options than in the current well-balanced freeskate let alone the current short program
*Use larger weighting factors for the program components than in the more technical program format(s)
*Let the number of allowed jumps be small enough that GOEs on jumps and other elements plus PCS could outweigh higher base values on the jumps -- but a skater who can include high difficulty and also create an artistically satisfying performance with good technique would score higher than a skater with comparable artistic/technical quality but lower difficulty

 

[aftershocks]

^^ A very well-reasoned and well-thought out plan of action to test and then consider implementing @gkelly. Would that the ISU had enough vision, grace, leadership and generosity, let alone common sense to seek out inclusive input and clearly articulated beneficial plans of action, such as you have illuminated. Thank you.

 

[Tinami Amori]

So.... if that happens, all Russians will have a new government-sponsored athletic training with hours of OTT in Bolshoy, Kirov, and other top dance academies, plus all major theatres...... And then few years later Candians and Americans will hire Peggy and "some small european country" to petition to cancel the "artistic"....

 

[aftershocks]

I am hoping @clairecloutier might find the time to more fully address this latest ISU proposed intent on her blog. You are such an excellent writer Claire, and a lot of people in the sport read your blog. I'm not sure our more worthwhile debates and rants on FSU ever gain credible interest and traction among decisionmakers, aside from a few ideas and gossip making the rounds.

I just re-read this and I wanted to clarify since I can't edit the post. I meant that a lot of debates on FSU aren't very worthwhile. But that some of the more worthwhile debates here don't get enough exposure and traction. I was not trying to compare FSU with your blog @clairecloutier. When I looked at this again, it seemed to read that way, but it's not what I meant. Quite the opposite.

 

[soogar]

So.... if that happens, all Russians will have a new government-sponsored athletic training with hours of OTT in Bolshoy, Kirov, and other top dance academies, plus all major theatres...... And then few years later Candians and Americans will hire Peggy and "some small european country" to petition the cancel the "artistic"....

I thought they already had that and cancelling the artistic had already been done in ice dance.