Meddling: New Documentary On Peacock about the 2002 Salt Lake Pairs Scandal

[Japanfan]

Jamie's win at the 2001 worlds was a farce and she should have retired from skating out of sheer shame right after that event (or refused the gold).

It's not as if Jamie was the only skater to have what some/many saw as a farcical win.

Yet, none of those other skaters get the amount of hate that Sale does.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

It's not as if Jamie was the only skater to have what some/many saw as a farcical win.

Yet, none of those other skaters get the amount of hate that Sale does.

That is because their farcial wins get no notice or press at all, but they have one slightly controversial loss and the world blew up. Double standards. And their sense of entitlement and arrogance about it all.

You wonder why so many dislike them. Well odds usually are if a majority feel someway, they are in the right.

 

[Japanfan]

You wonder why so many dislike them. Well odds usually are if a majority feel someway, they are in the right.

Not necessarily. There is this thing that happens called 'group think', and it's been evident on this board. It can be a scary thing.

Most people in the world didn't have any opinions of Jamie Sale at all, and didn't in 2002 - and many did not know who she was, nor watch the competition. Granted, all the media coverage and magazine covers (TIME, IIRC?) would have many people aware of the situation, but most of those wouldn't care much and would forget the names of the skaters involved immediately.

Think of all the people who have hated the Jews and others such as Indigenous peoples/Blacks over time, and supported genocide/persecution/oppression/injustice. The majority of people in some countries. Were they in the right because they were a majority?

Your statement supports discrimination and injustice.

That makes you in the wrong.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

Not necessarily. There is this thing that happens called 'group think', and it's been evident on this board. It can be a scary thing.

Most people in the world didn't have any opinions of Jamie Sale at all, and didn't in 2002 - and many did not know who she was, nor watch the competition. Granted, all the media coverage and magazine covers (TIME, IIRC?) would have many people aware of the situation, but most of those wouldn't care much and would forget the names of the skaters involved immediately.

Think of all the people who have hated the Jews and others such as Indigenous peoples/Blacks over time, and supported genocide/persecution/oppression/injustice. The majority of people in some countries. Were they in the right because they were a majority?

Your statement supports discrimination and injustice.

That makes you in the wrong.

It is ironic you preach the danger of "group think", yet the inflated, mostly made up mega controversy of Sale & Pelletier's narrow loss at the SLC Olympics, and the skewed and biased perspective of it presented by the agenda driven media, complete with outright bullying of Elena & Anton was the epitome of "group think" at its worst. Hilarious irony, especialy given that it is obvious you are a large Sale & Pelletier fan (which is fine btw).

 

[Japanfan]

It is ironic you preach the danger of "group think", yet the inflated, mostly made up mega controversy of Sale & Pelletier's narrow loss at the SLC Olympics, and the skewed and biased perspective of it presented by the agenda driven media, complete with outright bullying of Elena & Anton was the epitome of "group think" at its worst. Hilarious irony, especialy given that it is obvious you are a large Sale & Pelletier fan (which is fine btw).

American media pretty much had to defend S&P - their countries expected them too. Remember, Toller Cranston was fired many years ago for not being pro-Canadian enough. And likewise, Russian media had to defend B/S, and you can be sure it vilified S/P plenty.

Yes, I was a huge S/P fan. But as a serious skating fan of 20 years, I don't think my favorites should win just because they are my favorites (for example, I preferred Urmy to Elvis in 94, even though I'm a huge Elvis fan).

Your post expresses the group think on this board. That is the actual irony.

I really believed the two teams were equal and that if one skated clean, and the other didn't, the clean skate would win. I was not aware of the issues with Sale in 2001 at the time.

I've rewatched the comp a few times since the event to see if my perception remains the same, and it does.

 

[MarieM]

Not necessarily. There is this thing that happens called 'group think', and it's been evident on this board. It can be a scary thing.

Most people in the world didn't have any opinions of Jamie Sale at all, and didn't in 2002 - and many did not know who she was, nor watch the competition. Granted, all the media coverage and magazine covers (TIME, IIRC?) would have many people aware of the situation, but most of those wouldn't care much and would forget the names of the skaters involved immediately.

Think of all the people who have hated the Jews and others such as Indigenous peoples/Blacks over time, and supported genocide/persecution/oppression/injustice. The majority of people in some countries. Were they in the right because they were a majority?

Your statement supports discrimination and injustice.

That makes you in the wrong.

I disagree.
2001 was a farce, many here said it then.
As for the olys, I thought she was disgracefull and a sore loser the night of the FP. I stand by what I thought then. And all those documentaries prove my point. They were sore losers and still are.
And if you wanna talk about how corrupt ISU is, take a closer look at what all countries with power do. Canada, USA and Russia of course. Not just Russia.

 

[Japanfan]

@Marie M, I am talking about 2002, not 2001. I would need to rewatch the 2001 Worlds competition again to confirm or change my view. I didn't care much at the time TBH.

As to 2002, I stand by what I thought at the time, especially since I've rewatched the competition multiple times.

I think Jamie was just shocked they didn't win, and understandably disappointed. That a judge admitted to misconduct and a second gold was awarded was not Jamie's fault. It's not fair to blame Jamie for that. Nor the media. Blame it on the judge who admitted to misconduct, invalidating her decision.

What are the 'all those documentaries' you refer to? Could you please name five? Aside from the recent documentary, I vaguely remember maybe one other.

And if she was a sore loser, she is certainly not the first figure skater to be one, and won't be the last.

Remember when Surya Bonaly took off her silver medal while standing on the podium? Sui was in tears on the podium at the 2018 OG, IIRC.

 

[Yuri]

I would sooner argue that Krylova should have at the very least, positioned in 1st in CD and overall!

Riverdance over Rome and Juliete! Please!!!

CBS never showed the Nagano compulsories in its coverage other than a bizarre side-by-side Golden Waltz comparison of Grishuk & Platov and Bourne & Kraatz, which if Tracy Wilson were honest and unbiased would have demonstrated that B/K were lucky to be placed 5th as some say it was so bad they didn't belong in the top 10. I found a high quality HD version of the Japanese coverage on YouTube and finally watched the top group of Golden Waltzes today--and was blown away by just how bad B/K were! It has to be the worst compulsory I have ever seen for a podium contender at an Olympic Games or World Championships. Their timing was off consistently, maybe even to the point they were skating on the weak beat of the music, and extremely sloppy and lazy. So I don't buy that B/K were denied a bronze medal due to so-called bloc judging--the Golden Waltz did them in. And while I think B/K had a great performance with their Riverdance FD, I still cannot understand how it placed 3rd ahead of Anissina & Peizerat's Romeo and Juliet.

I also watched the Golden Waltzes of G/P and K/O back-to-back for the first time ever and believe this compulsory was judged fairly as G/P won it with just a 6/3 split over K/O. But for the Technique mark, K/O beat G/P with 5 judges and 4 had them tied--so Grishuk clearly was deducted for her toe pick down problem and it was very unfair of Tracy Wilson to fail to point out on CBS.

The technique marks:
G/P 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.8
K/O 5.8 5.8 5.6 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8

But G/P dominated the Golden Waltz on timing/expression and those marks (the tiebreaker) reflected it with 7 judges ahead of K/O and 2 ties. Everyone always focused on the lady, but for this dance do yourself a favor and watch the elegant performance of Platov. He was born to skate a Russian style waltz and was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the male partners:

The timing/expression marks:
G/P 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.8
K/O 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7

Finally, the combined Golden Waltz marks (G/P won each tiebreaker with a higher T/E mark):
NAT CAN POL LTU UKR GER CZE RUS ITA FRA
G/P 11.5 11.5 11.4 11.5 11.5 11.5 11.7 11.6 11.6
K/O 11.6 11.5 11.3 11.5 11.4 11.6 11.6 11.6 11.5
ORD K&O G&P G&P K&O G&P K&O G&P G&P G&P

Similar to the closeness of the pairs' free skate, the Golden Waltz was close enough that I wouldn't have had a problem with K/O edging out G/P on it due to Grishuk's error. But the judges believed (and I agree) that the overall character and expression of the waltz was slightly better for G/P, perhaps enough to award them 1st place despite the error. In any case, G/P were still so excellent on the Golden Waltz that they deserved no placements below 2nd, so the G/P vs. B/K arguments were ludicrous. As to the rest of the competition, G/P dominated the Argentine Tango, Original Dance, and Free Dance (sweeping the ordinals) that there's no question in my mind that they deserved the gold, K/O deserved the silver, and it's a shame the top two Russians were dragged into the bloc judging controversy. Finally, I certainly have no problems with A/P winning bronze over B/K and believe it was done in a legitimate matter, no matter what the heck Balkov and Senft were discussing.

 

[Lemonade20]

@Marie M, I am talking about 2002, not 2001. I would need to rewatch the 2001 Worlds competition again to confirm or change my view. I didn't care much at the time TBH.

As to 2002, I stand by what I thought of the time, especially since I've rewat-ched the competition multiple times.

I think Jamie was just shocked they didn't win, and understandably disappointed. That a judge admitted to misconduct and a second golden was awarded was not Jamie's doing. It's not fair to blame Jamie for that.

What are the 'all those documentaries' you refer to? Could you please name five? Aside from the recent documentary, I vaguely remember maybe one other.

And if she was a sore loser, she is certainly not the first figure skater to be one, and won't be the last.

Remember when Surya Bonaly took off her silver medal while standing on the podium? Sui was in tears on the podium at the 2018 OG, IIRC.

It's hard to put on a happy face when you're completely disappointed with the results. With Jamie, I think it has a lot to do with her RBF (resting bitch face) that just makes you want to dislike her. She's not the first person in skating history for sure. Just look at Nancy after Oksana's win. People need to accept disappointment and move on instead of dragging it over and over. Even Kurt got over his Olympic disappointments.

 

[Judy]

It is ironic you preach the danger of "group think", yet the inflated, mostly made up mega controversy of Sale & Pelletier's narrow loss at the SLC Olympics, and the skewed and biased perspective of it presented by the agenda driven media, complete with outright bullying of Elena & Anton was the epitome of "group think" at its worst. Hilarious irony, especialy given that it is obvious you are a large Sale & Pelletier fan (which is fine btw).

Made up controversy? I dunno .. S&P didn’t force a judge to confess to cheating. Publicly. In front of several judges from different countries. As well as saying she would have given S&P the win if she wasn’t.forced by Didier to deliver on B&S. Hmmmm .

 

[Pink Cats]

After reading this thread I have come to the following conclusions.

1. That while most people accept that the second gold medals where awarded because a judge admitted to cheating B & S fans are arguing that the cheating should not mater because in their opinion B & S where better. I hate to tell them that even if it had been a slam dunk for B & S, the cheating still would matter, because it contradicts the whole idea of the Olympics and fair play.
2. Certain B & S fan really think that Jamie Sale has assume power of persuasion since she was able to cause a judge to admit to cheating, the North American media to erupt just because she didn’t glow with happiness after loosing a very tight skate. I find it very misogynistic that Jamie is blamed for something that she had no control over but David who also was disappointed was not blamed.
3. Finally, why is it acceptable for Russian skaters to make very nasty comments about other non-Russian skaters but heaven help a non-Russian skater if they made such a remark. Should not Russian skater be required to conform to the same standards.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

Made up controversy? I dunno .. S&P didn’t force a judge to confess to cheating.

No that was Sally Stapleford and the American referee who both even admited to bullying a mentally ill woman. Joe Jackson in his book even bragged about the American referee bullying her. That French judge is a quack and it does expose some of the corruption of the ISU that such an unstable person was allowed to be judging at such a high level in the first place. Corruption which S&P were one of the biggest beneficiaries of overall though, outside of SLC.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Neither Stapleford nor the American referee would have had any effect on LeGounge, if she wasn't dependent on Stapleford to get onto the Technical Committee, which would have gotten her out from under Gailhauget's thumb. It was seeing her career aspirations go down the drain that caused her to crack, and that her excuses about being pressured to Stapleford getting her zero sympathy that made her crack further.

The irony is that if CoP had been used properly in Salt Lake City Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze would have won more decisively. There is no comparison in the complexity of the programmes.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Judy]

No that was Sally Stapleford and the American referee who both even admited to bullying a mentally ill woman. Joe Jackson in his book even bragged about the American referee bullying her. That French judge is a quack and it does expose some of the corruption of the ISU that such an unstable person was allowed to be judging at such a high level in the first place. Corruption which S&P were one of the biggest beneficiaries of overall though, outside of SLC.

if you do some digging there were other foreign judges (foreign = different countries). I don’t buy into the unstable French judge thing. I have no idea why she lies to this day but?

I think you and others believe I supporting corruption in judging though. That’s not ok for me - in any sport.

 

[allezfred]

Can someone explain to me why if Le Gougne cheated her marks for the SP and for every other pair in the free bar the top two were not discarded as well? And why were there no sanctions against the two judges who put Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze second in the SP?

 

[LoopCombo]

The constant referring to the audience reaction as proof the result was wrong - as if skating competitions should be decided by a public vote.

Yes, it struck me as odd given that by that logic, Adelina Sotnikova was the clear winner of the women’s competition in Sochi — and yet many people in the figure skating community argue that Sotnikova’s win was unfair.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Why do they need this Again? I am sick of this. It is time to move on. I will not watch this garbage and will not follow this thread either. Enough

Amen! Why? What does it contribute to life? We (the very educated skating fans)
know what happened, have formed their opinions. What in the world is the point of showing this? Maybe Peacock doesn't realize this happened a long time ago LOL. I can't think of what portion of this is of value for us today. Oh maybe they will do Nancy & Tanya next.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Can someone explain to me why if Le Gougne cheated her marks for the SP and for every other pair in the free bar the top two were not discarded as well? And why were there no sanctions against the two judges who put Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze second in the SP?

Because the whole thing was rigged..........that was the point.

 

[overedge]

For those of us who can remember it, figures were a big deal. Skaters who could nail figures did well. Many examples of how that played out through the years.

It's also very well known that the scores in figures could be, and were, manipulated to give favoured skaters a better chance of the overall win. So a skater placing well in figures didn't necessarily mean that they actually did the best on that day.

There were some skaters that were really good and consistent at figures, and others that weren't. But there were a lot of mysterious results from the figures part of the competitions during that era.

 

[Pink Cats]

Can someone explain to me why if Le Gougne cheated her marks for the SP and for every other pair in the free bar the top two were not discarded as well? And why were there no sanctions against the two judges who put Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze second in the SP?

The IOC from what I remember basically told the ISU to make the problem go away and typically the ISU rather than doing a real investigation did just enough to shut the press up. The sanctions where for cheating not bad judging.

 

[allezfred]

The IOC from what I remember basically told the ISU to make the problem go away and typically the ISU rather than doing a real investigation did just enough to shut the press up. The sanctions where for cheating not bad judging.

Bad judging is cheating. One of the two judges was Canadian.

 

[Japanfan]

And why were there no sanctions against the two judges who put Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze second in the SP?

Maybe because those two judges could defend/had defended their position? Not sure. For me, B/S clearly won the SP.

 

[Pink Cats]

Bad judging is cheating. One of the two judges was Canadian.

All judging is to a large extent based on person opinion about an event. If that opinion can be backed up in any way, then Bad Judging is just Bad Judging

Example

The fact that Alexandra Trusova gets anything over a 6 for skating skills is in my view very bad Judging.

When a judge allows outside forces to sway their decision then Bad Judging becomes Cheating.

Example

The toe tapping scandal.

In 2002 the only judge known to have allowed outside forces to sway their decision was the French judge. If a proper investigation had been done, we would have more information. Who knows the whole panel could have been corrupt

 

[VGThuy]

More heads should have rolled and a deeper, independent investigation should have been conducted. That said, B/S winning would have been fair but it’s a shame all that crap happened behind the scenes. I really do think all of this started with the 2001 Worlds results…both in pairs and ice dance.

 

[Yuri]

Whether the judging is corrupt and whether the judging is fair are two different issues. I am 99.9% certain that there's been plenty of corrupt judging going on throughout the years, especially under the 6.0 system when you knew which countries would be on the panel in advance and the panel remained constant throughout the event (such as the Olympics back in the day). However, there are likely many instances where "fair" judging (whatever THAT means!) would produce the same results as the tainted judging. So while it sickens me that there's been so many backroom deals in figure skating, I can separate the cheating from the results if it was all much ado about nothing such as guaranteeing a result likely to occur anyway and not automatically assume medals were undeserved. Unfortunately in the close 5/4 or 6/3 decisions there will always be a doubt over whether one or more judges were persuaded to switch their votes.

 

[tony]

I finally finished. I can't help but feel bad for Le Gougne's introverted life and I feel awful for her attempted suicide, but I still don't get what the official story is that she wants to be put out there. I don't think anyone really knows what she wants people to think now.

Pelletier said he thought Elena and Anton knew nothing about it, but that Tamara was a different story. Both this documentary and the Bad Sport one on Netflix try to paint her in a light of being in charge of some Russian mafia. I want to know why David thinks this, but we didn't get an explanation.

I also just have to continue about the Canadians whining about a 3 year suspension for Le Gougne and Gailhaguet being insufficient- which I agree with, but not when you're using Senft in said documentary and her saying she doesn't understand why any reprecussions happened to her. You just can't make the delusion up.

Senft is essentially the 1998 version of Le Gougne. Difference is, I'm 99.9% sure that had B/K gotten a medal in Nagano, we would've never heard a peep from her.

ETA- no offense @Japanfan but you need to rewatch 2001 Worlds and see what many of us have referenced that none of these other documentaries have touched. If they were equal in your mind, then you cannot explain 2001 Worlds in either the SP or LP in my opinion. This goes for North American media as a whole- the instant 'this is the wrong result' exclamations on broadcast TV and in media comments in SLC, prior to judging allegations, was something that simply did not happen at 2001 Worlds. And FWIW, S/P also beat B/S at the Grand Prix Final SP a few months earlier which I think was also questionable seeing how good Caliph really was. And the dance result, too..

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

At SLC, the only event with a blatantly wrong final result among the top contenders was in ice dance. Drobiazko/Vanagas should have been 2nd or 3rd, any lower placement indicates piss poor judging. The second event with very questionable judging was ladies.

In contrast, the pairs event IMO was a draw (either pair could have won and the result would be reasonable), and of course the men's result was not controversial whatsoever.

I'm not interested in how the two pairs would have ranked under CoP, which is a garbage judging system, but B/S had at least a one-mistake margin over S/P in the long.

I also find it hilarious that clueless fans buy the argument of swapping votes so the Russians win in pairs and the French win in ice dance. As if the gold in ice dance should go to anyone else -- the French ice dance team was so far ahead of the rest of the field, that no other team should have been 1st.

 

[thvu]

They already knew there was no chance of a medal. It was no secret the exact order of finish.

She’s literally the only judge whose ordinals followed the “deal”.

 

[overedge]

Joe Jackson in his book even bragged about the American referee bullying her.

Once more for the people in the back: Joe Jackson is either Michael Jackson's dad or the musician. The book you keep referring to was by Jon Jackson.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

At SLC, the only event with a blatantly wrong final result among the top contenders was in ice dance. Drobiazko/Vanagas should have been 2nd or 3rd, any lower placement indicates piss poor judging

Yeah but they were from a tiny country with no power, so nobody said anything. What a joke.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the Lithunian judge who placed them 3rd in the FD (and the only judge who had them higher than the Italians in the FD, which every judge should have) was given a reprimand for "national bias".