Mass Shooting at LGBT Nightclub in Orlando

[VGThuy]

As for the constitution, yes it was written in there,But my issue with that being an argument is that when the constitution was written was when the citizens of the US were facing war with Britain and the fact that a lot of the US was still undeveloped and people had to have guns to protect themselves and their land.
But using that as an iron clad argument isn't really addressing the fact that it is doubtful that the forefathers who drafted the constitution forsaw this.

Many lawyers have tried. Constitutional law is complicated to say the least.

 

[BlueRidge]

To Whom It May Concern:

I hope that when people are in pain another time, you can understand that maybe then is not the time to push, push, push on this issue.

Empathy is what I'd like to ask for.

Thank you.

 

[Angelskates]

The one in New York City was pretty political and energetic before the vigil and remembrance part. So yes, some people just wanted to mourn, but other people wanted to fight and protest, including people like Governor Cuomo and Mayor DiBlasio among many other speakers who have been fighting for stricter gun control nation-wide for years if not decades.

But that's the thing - whatever changes are being made aren't reducing the number of massacres that are happening. Is it because it's not enough? Or that the change is not easy to implement? Or the change is not in the right area? Or is the change gradual?

@jeffisjeff - actually it is hard to see any changes and results when those changes and results aren't actually changing the number of massacres that are happening, and in fact the number is increasing. You didn't really answer my questions at all. Which is fine, but there's no need to be, what reads to me, as condescending.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

What else entirely? And what can you do about it?

In a big city like Las Vegas (or the one where I live) if someone only comes upon the gun toting "dimwit" perhaps they are finding what they are seeking, & not all that interested to learn differing opinions people have about guns in America.

What I can do about the issue is continue voting, writing my representatives & supporting non-profits that promote common sense reforms even when it has to be done one law at a time, one state at a time.

 

[VGThuy]

Why are massacres increasing is a heavy-loaded question. Taking away guns from people who shouldn't have them and having stricter gun control will majorly help, but does it cure the disease and address where this intense anger some feel comes from?

 

[Angelskates]

In a big city like Las Vegas (or the one where I live) I would say that if someone only comes upon the gun toting "dimwit" perhaps they are finding what they are seeking, & not all that interested to learn differing opinions people have about guns in America.

What I can do about the issue is continue voting, writing my representatives & supporting non-profits that promote common sense reforms even when it has to be done one law at a time, one state at a time.

Is it possible that people in one state can affect another state? Would it be likely in your opinion, that say one place made some changes and saw a difference in the number of shootings, that another state would follow?

 

[VGThuy]

Yes. That's how we had a wave of states with big urban areas with high income inequality pass strict gun legislation after years of dealing with heavy gun-related violence.

 

[Xela M]

In a big city like Las Vegas (or the one where I live) I would say that if someone only comes upon the gun toting "dimwit" perhaps they are finding what they are seeking, & not all that interested to learn differing opinions people have about guns in America.

What I can do about the issue is continue voting, writing my representatives & supporting non-profits that promote common sense reforms even when it is done one law at a time, one state at a time.

First of all, I have been to the US many times (and even worked in NYC) so I have met more than one American.

I don't know why you are so insulted by my posts since I wasn't referring to you, but to people (some of whom are in this very thread) who continue to argue that gun trade in the US is Ok and has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of shootings. If that's not your opinion, I wasn't addressing my posts to you.

 

[Vash01]

Why are massacres increasing is a heavy-loaded question. Taking away guns from people who shouldn't have them and having stricter gun control will majorly help, but does it cure the disease and address where this intense anger some feel comes from?

No, but it is a start. It is better than doing nothing about it.

 

[jeffisjeff]

@jeffisjeff - actually it is hard to see any changes and results when those changes and results aren't actually changing the number of massacres that are happening, and in fact the number is increasing. You didn't really answer my questions at all. Which is fine, but there's no need to be, what reads to me, as condescending.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was just trying to make a point about willful ignorance.

But never mind. Now I understand that you want to discredit any and all efforts (such as protests) and results (such as state laws) because you don't see an effect. Good to know.

 

[VGThuy]

No, but it is a start. It is better than doing nothing about it.

And again, who is suggesting doing nothing? Has nothing happened? Thinking something is not being enough to prevent something like what happened in Orlando doesn't equate to nothing.

 

[BlueRidge]

I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was just trying to make a point about willful ignorance.

But never mind. Now I understand that you want to discredit any and all efforts (such as protests) and results (such as state laws) because you don't see an effect. Good to know.

We can't have done anything because if we had it would have changed things. I think that is what people see here.

But it just feels like you people are badgering those of us WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IT.

I don't really care if people from outside the US understand what all our efforts have been and what has been done and what hasn't. I should want to hear from people from outside the US. Why? I've been fcking hysterical about gun violence for most of my life. When my mother was alive so was she.

Its hard enough to have to deal with people in this country who argue against regulating guns, now we are told we should be providing information to the non-US folks who just don't understand why we don't change anything. And if that exasperates us it must be because we don't want to deal with the gun problem.

 

[Xela M]

No, but it is a start. It is better than doing nothing about it.

Exactly! There will always be angry madmen in the world, but let's not try to arm all of them.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

That's why I specifically said "those Americans who refuse to acknowledge that your gun laws are a massive problem". And Trump was not just elected by a few nutters, but by millions of Americans. If you think there's nothing worrying about that. Fine. But Europe is certainly worried.

I did not say Trump is nothing to worry about. I pointed out there are differing opinions (even when visiting Las Vegas) that are easily accessed & readily available to those who really want them. Positions against Trump or in support of common sense gun reform are views held by millions of Americans too.

 

[Angelskates]

Why are massacres increasing is a heavy-loaded question. Taking away guns from people who shouldn't have them and having stricter gun control will majorly help, but does it cure the disease and address where this intense anger some feel comes from?

I guess I'm more thinking from a tolerance and mental health perspective. There will always be angry people, and intolerant people, but when it's easy for them to get a gun...well that a recipe for disaster. Setting the gun issue aside, there has to be something that can be done to reduce the reason that people want to shoot up a school, nightclub, workplace etc. Not always (I still find the "reasoning" for the Port Arthur Massacre hard to grasp - but then I would never think of arming myself anyway), but sometimes. So in addition to fighting for gun control, better mental health services (every country can do this better), promoting tolerance...again really easy things to say, but actually all countries struggle with this. In this case, the man had issues with his sexuality it seems (and maybe his faith), in some other case, workplace disputes, and I think everywhere in the world could do better working on these things.

 

[VGThuy]

What I don't get is that people acknowledge that it's a hard fight because we're changing whole cultural attitudes and what they perceive to be their right. It's hard to change the narrative so that making people safer won't be seen as a infringement upon the right they grew up believing they always had. So when it is pointed out that there have been people who dedicated their lives to fighting and have been making progress (See Sylvia's post), and the response is that it's not enough and we need to change it now, I find that it's not really acknowledging how hard the fight really is. I mean yes, it's not enough. I bet the ones who are most vigorously and dedicatedly fighting for gun control would be the first to say that, but you can't say it's a hard fight but not acknowledge that the results that we've had is a product of the difficulty of that fight.

I guess I'm more thinking from a tolerance and mental health perspective. There will always be angry people, and intolerant people, but when it's easy for them to get a gun...well that a recipe for disaster. Setting the gun issue aside, there has to be something that can be done to reduce the reason that people want to shoot up a school, nightclub, workplace etc. Not always (I still find the "reasoning" for the Port Arthur Massacre hard to grasp - but then I would never think of arming myself anyway), but sometimes. So in addition to fighting for gun control, better mental health services (every country can do this better), promoting tolerance...again really easy things to say, but actually all countries struggle with this. In this case, the man had issues with his sexuality it seems (and maybe his faith), in some other case, workplace disputes, and I think everywhere in the world could do better working on these things.

Right. It's really hard. For those of us who are activist types, it can feel like a losing battle even when we do win some battles and make great progress. It's really asking for a huge change of thinking. That sort of change is hard to come by, but it does happen. We just have to remember that we can still fight for broad, sweeping changes while fighting for the smaller victories that build up and lead to the broad change.

 

[Angelskates]

I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was just trying to make a point about willful ignorance.

But never mind. Now I understand that you want to discredit any and all efforts (such as protests) and results (such as state laws) because you don't see an effect. Good to know.

Are those things having an affect? What is it?

Are there protests in between massacres? Or only when emotions are high?

 

[Xela M]

I did not say Trump is nothing to worry about. I pointed out there are differing opinions easily accessed & readily available to those who really want them. Positions against Trump or in support of common sense gun reform are views held by millions of Americans too.

Well, yes. We are aware of Clinton and of the polls and stuff here in Europe. Anyway, the US would have been a dream country of mine if not for gun laws, so I really am not anti-American at all. I just don't understand why a person can still go to a shop and buy a gun, even after all the stricter laws and supposed changes and I don't understand why so many are still in favour of this.

 

[Vash01]

Well, yes. We are aware of Clinton and of the polls and stuff here in Europe. Anyway, the US would have been a dream country of mine if not for gun laws, so I really am not anti-American at all. I just don't understand why a person can still go to a shop and buy a gun, even after all the stricter laws and supposed changes and I don't understand why so many are still in favour of this.

The laws are not strict. It is easy to buy guns and even military grade weapons.

 

[Sylvia]

For those interested and with access to PI, we have an entire thread devoted to the discussion of guns/shootings/gun control challenges in the USA/etc. that I bumped up after the Orlando massacre: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/guns-guns-guns.92193/page-9#post-4810435

 

[manhn]

Why are massacres increasing is a heavy-loaded question. Taking away guns from people who shouldn't have them and having stricter gun control will majorly help, but does it cure the disease and address where this intense anger some feel comes from?

In Vancouver, a man who was attending a vigil Sunday night with his Pride flag was assaulted. He was hospitalized, but he's still alive. Is the man who assaulted him any less hateful than the the guy in Orlando?

In short, homophobia is hardly unique to the US. When the Americans figure out how to eradicate homophobia, let us know.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Anyway, the US would have been a dream country of mine if not for gun laws, so I really am not anti-American at all. I just don't understand why a person can still go to a shop and buy a gun, even after all the stricter laws and supposed changes and I don't understand why so many are still in favour of this.

..... so you live in UK and you're a lawyer.... and yet you ask these questions.

Gangs, illegal guns, some caught, many not..
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...000-guns-scotland-6529023#705r6O3pZvhVwRCb.97

Gangs use “historic/collectable” guns loopholes…..
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...mport-deadly-weapons-into-london-9267108.html

Buying gun in UK, who, how, why, what……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT3cPwV4uTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoHkHAphPoI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyNz0kMHWY4&list=PLdw-vBe9RRO3mr1VDR8hZnf2rCrc7Wt5E

 

[rjblue]

For those interested and with access to PI, we have an entire thread devoted to the discussion of guns/shootings/gun control challenges in the USA/etc. that I bumped up after the Orlando massacre: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/guns-guns-guns.92193/page-9#post-4810435

Yes, please.

I don't know whether this makes me pleased or sad:
Truro flies rainbow flag for the first time
On the one hand, they are finally acknowledging the struggles of their LGBTQ community, but on the other, how horrible that it takes an event like this to bring about change.

 

[Xela M]

..... so you live in UK and you're a lawyer.... and yet you ask these questions.

Gangs, illegal guns, some caught, many not..
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...000-guns-scotland-6529023#705r6O3pZvhVwRCb.97

Gangs use “historic/collectable” guns loopholes…..
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...mport-deadly-weapons-into-london-9267108.html

Buying gun in UK, who, how, why, what……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT3cPwV4uTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoHkHAphPoI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyNz0kMHWY4&list=PLdw-vBe9RRO3mr1VDR8hZnf2rCrc7Wt5E

You have no friking clue what you are talking about. Yes, some do get illegal guns or makeshift guns, but the English teen gangs' weapon of choice is a knife and London has huge problems with youth gangs and knife crimes. Teenagers regularly stab each other, but shootings are an exception!

 

[kittyjake5]

@Angleskates for my own curiosity may I ask what country do you live in?

 

[Allskate]

Because from where I stand, it's nothing.

You seem to be standing in the land of self-imposed ignorance. It wouldn't be that hard to shed some of that ignorance. If you even looked at today's news you would know that there is currently a filibuster going on in the Senate to once again try to get more gun control. Google is your friend. If you made just a little effort, you would know that this has been an ongoing battle. You would know that people regularly contact their Congressional representatives and sign petitions. You would know that the vast majority of Americans support more gun control. The Second Amendment is not the reason that there are not bans on assault weapons; as I have mentioned before, we've had that ban before. It's politics. The Second Amendment also is not the reason we don't have universal background checks. But, even if all our gun problems could be solved with the repeal of the Second Amendment, you have absolutely no grasp of our legal system, our political system, and our media, if you think that the Second Amendment can be eliminated. Anyone familiar with our country knows that. An amendment requires a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress. We can't even get a majority to pass the most common-sense regulations like requiring universal background checks for people buying firearms or making it more difficult to obtain assault rifles. Repeal of the Second Amendment is not going to happen. It would be a huge waste of resources to try to make repeal of the Second Amendment the mechanism by which we address our problem. It makes much more sense to continue to try to get a variety of legislative changes. And it would also be a good idea not to elect a president who embraces the NRA while also inciting fear, hate, anger, resentment and violence. Fearmongering is a big part of this mess.

To dismiss non-Americans views is also not the right way - God knows, the US needs all the help it can get, and maybe it does take some outside views to help give some hope and make some change.

When the views are incredibly uninformed and offer little in the way of useful information, they will be dismissed.

You didn't really answer my questions at all. Which is fine, but there's no need to be, what reads to me, as condescending.

When you show great ignorance while being judgmental at a time of great pain, I think you have invited condescension.

It's bad enough that I have to deal with the constant shootings and the obstruction to positive change by some of my fellow Americans. I have zero tolerance for people who seem to prefer expressing judgement to expressing understanding and empathy at such a horrible time.

 

[Tinami Amori]

You have no friking clue what you are talking about. Yes, some do get illegal guns or makeshift guns, but the English teen gangs' weapon of choice is a knife and London has huge problems with youth gangs and knife crimes. Teenagers regularly stab each other, but shootings are an exception!

You asked why so many people are in favor of "this"/guns. UK people are also interested in and want guns.
This is an interesting article "In this respect, at least, it is the Americans who have the more mature attitude towards the gun debate."
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/its-britain-not-america-that-has-debate-over-gun-ownership-wrong-1530102

 

[pat c]

In Vancouver, a man who was attending a vigil Sunday night with his Pride flag was assaulted. He was hospitalized, but he's still alive. Is the man who assaulted him any less hateful than the the guy in Orlando?

In short, homophobia is hardly unique to the US. When the Americans figure out how to eradicate homophobia, let us know.

I thought people were moving past the homophobia. My niece (who is gay) was verbally assaulted in the city where she lives about a week ago. (sigh) Just when I thought I couldn't be surprised, I am surprised, horrified and appalled.

To anyone who needs a hug or a shared moment/drink/whatever........I'm thinking of you and I hope you find a moment of peace and safety.

 

[jeffisjeff]

Are those things having an affect? What is it?

That question would take an entire dissertation and then some. Someone posted limited stats and links earlier in this thread, I think specifically related to the ban on assault weapons. That information is there if you want to find it.

For those interested and with access to PI, we have an entire thread devoted to the discussion of guns/shootings/gun control challenges in the USA/etc. that I bumped up after the Orlando massacre

Point taken.

 

[nlloyd]

In short, homophobia is hardly unique to the US. When the Americans figure out how to eradicate homophobia, let us know.

I'm not sure whether you meant this to be taken at face value, and I am not an American. However, I think it is an important question and I believe once_upon identified a key starting point, one that applies across geographical boundaries:

At a recent conference I was asked to attend a meeting where social reform issues were being discussed. The president of this organization who is gay and not allowed to be ordinated in the Methodist church, critized many Methodists for being a LGBTQ supporter in the closet.

Meaning that many straight people say they support LGBTQIA in private conversion, but when action is required we fail to step up in public. So we react with silence or avoidance or embarrassment or not know how to respond.

I'm angry that you experienced these acts of inaction. I would like to think I would be among the people who would bring up this topic in the office.

Those people of faith who support their LGBTQ friends or present themselves as non-homophobic in a social context, and yet who do not make these beliefs known in the religious organizations to which they belong, need to speak up about their beliefs. They need to "come out of the closet" in their faith communities by making it known that they do not agree with the teaching that homosexuality is a sin. Only in so doing will the leadership become aware of the discrepancy that exists between the beliefs they are promulgating and those of their members.

What I would like to say to these individuals - and to those who actually believe that homosexuality is a sin - is that by failing to speak out against religious homophobia, they are putting LGBTQ individuals at war with themselves. When that inner war is no longer bearable, these individuals enact it externally. They may bring about an external carnage that is the equivalent of the internal carnage consequent on knowing oneself to be LGBTQ while also knowing that that identity is rejected, repulsed, derided by one's faith community. Either that, or "in the closet" supporters, foster the notion, even inadvertently, that by slaughtering LGBTQ people, an individual is doing his/her community a service.