Lu Chen's 1997 LP?

Spartacus said:
Does anyone know the music Lu Chen's 1997 LP was set to? As far as I know she placed 11th in the qualifying round, so she obviously skated a long program. Was it Butterfly Lovers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAfAbSWCPo0
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I can't answer the music question, but I'm not so sure if she actually got to skate the long program @ 1997 Worlds. Didn't she finish about 25th after the short program, & therefore didn't make the cut for the free skate? Thankfully, her 1998 season ended on a much happier note!
 
Wasn't there a rule earlier that the top ten from last years worlds didn't have to do qualifying? Chen was second in 96, so.. At least that rule was present in 95, when Kulik came as newly crowned European champion, but had to go through qualifying, as opposed to his rivals.
 
SmallFairy said:
Wasn't there a rule earlier that the top ten from last years worlds didn't have to do qualifying? Chen was second in 96, so.. At least that rule was present in 95, when Kulik came as newly crowned European champion, but had to go through qualifying, as opposed to his rivals.
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That ruling was changed the following season.

Everyone entered in ladies & men's singles at the 1997 World Championships had to skate a qualifying free skate.

The total number of athletes in each division was divided into two equally sized groups, Qualifying Group A & Qualifying Group B.

The top 15 from each group were combined to form the top 30 for the short program, of which the top 24 from the short program qualified for the free skating final.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_World_Figure_Skating_Championships

I also read somewhere that Chen may have skated to Debussy's La Mer for her free skate that season.
 
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paskatefan said:
I can't answer the music question, but I'm not so sure if she actually got to skate the long program @ 1997 Worlds. Didn't she finish about 25th after the short program, & therefore didn't make the cut for the free skate? Thankfully, her 1998 season ended on a much happier note!
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She skated her long program during the qualifying round.
essence_of_soy said:
That ruling was changed the following season.

Everyone entered in ladies & men's singles at the 1997 World Championships had to skate a qualifying free skate.

The total number of athletes in each division was divided into two equally sized groups, Qualifying Group A & Qualifying Group B.

The top 15 from each group were combined to form the top 30 for the short program, of which the top 24 from the short program qualified for the free skating final.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_World_Figure_Skating_Championships

I also read somewhere that Chen may have skated to Debussy's La Mer for her free skate that season.
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And we'll never see it! :wuzrobbed

How can there be no way to confirm this? lol She was the reigning World silver medalist and former World champ. Surely there was someone in the audience watching her skate. :lol:
 
I am sure the music was listed as "La Mer" for that year for the FS. SP was "Take Five" by Brubeck.

From what I gather at the time: Chen was World Champion in 1995, almost by default (5 clean triples and the Toller Cranston Chinese-themed program) as Bobek completed 3lutz-3toe and was on her way to keeping her 1st place after the SP; and Bonaly had taken herself out in the SP. Kwan made a clean, 7 triple, immature skate and was 4th.

She then improved after going with Sandra Bezic in 1996 and the "Spring Breeze" SP and Mendelsohn FS, but her spinning was still mediocre and she was beaten by the newly mature "Salome" Kwan in 1996 in a split, very controversial decision.

During this time, she was in SoCal and she was interviewed (and I think I can quote her) saying how she was loving the US (I.e. becoming Westernized) and the, "go beach, go shopping. Love BMV." She notably did not like hot dogs. She was making money during the post-Kerrigan knee whack popularity. She had freedom and dared to show more love for the USA than China in interviews. Her coach was also notable in So Cal.

One could argue that the financial and creative framework for Chinese skaters simply did not work for her once she found the beach, shopping and BMW. She was called back and told to participate under the Chinese Federation control. And she was told to hand over the money, and the materialistic and I bet they limited her travel visas.

"Fun is over now LuLu - shut up and skate - and we want that Gold Medal. You are not going anywhere or doing anything but skate until Olympics are over."

She was emotionally devastated and depressed. Interviews with Bezic kind of corroborate this - that the loss of freedoms and growth in the US was difficult for her.

Did anyone else notice in Nagano that she did not even have on nail polish? That she was in a lovely costume but less glamourous than before? That all the coaches were men? The music Chinese? She was there in a very obligatory demeanor. I actually think Maria Butyrskaya skated and jumped much better, as Lu's jumps were about 75% under-rotated. One had a <<. Bronze was a gift.
 
I remember and also think Nagano bronze a gift due to politics. Almost she HAD to get a medal or else. Maria has better skate in Nagano. I always liked Chen.
 
I don't know much of the back story about her and her federation in 1998 but remember that she bowed to her coaches when she was getting off the nice.
 
Finsta said:
I remember and also think Nagano bronze a gift due to politics. Almost she HAD to get a medal or else. Maria has better skate in Nagano. I always liked Chen.
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Coming from both a huge Butyrskaya fan and considering the way things were looked at in non-IJS eyes back then, I don’t take issue with Chen’s bronze medal over Butyrskaya and Slutskaya- although the ordinals were all over the place. Butyrskaya skated extremely tentatively, her program really didn’t leave any impression, she had no combination jump, and she really gave it away to a greater extent in her ending bows and demeanor getting off the ice, I think. Chen had a ‘moment’ and even with the cheated jumps, I couldn’t believe it was only a 5-4 split over Maria.
 
I wonder if perhaps some of the judges gave Chen extra credit for attempting 7 triples including 2 lutzes and a late 3/3 (very cheated I know) - which partly offset the cheated jumps. Her 1st set of marks was rightfully lower (avg 5.5 vs. 5.6 for Butyrskaya). Meanwhile Maria only rotated 5 triples, one of each, had no true combo, and her lutz and flip also looked incredibly stiff if not also two footed. This was also one of the few events that Chen's spins weren't a burden.

I agree with Tony about the demeaor. Chen was fist pumping and crying, whereas Butyrskaya remained emotionless throughout. I wonder how the crowd reaction differed between them and whether that also played a part.

For the record, I agreed with the placement between the three bronze contenders. I am actually a bit uneasy that Slutskaya was as close as she was to bronze with the popped combo in the short. She lucked out that she still placed 5th (i.e. Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert, Rechnio etc also had mistakes in the short and Swechevko had withdrawn).
 
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Maria's Otonal is gorgeous, but she was behind the music in Nagano. This caused her to lose the connection with the music that can be seen in other performances, like 1999 Worlds.
 
Don't forget that Lu Chen only had three third place ordinals for that LP, so 6 judges out of 9 would not have given her the bronze. Maria Butyrskaya received four third place ordinals and was one short of winning the bronze. I think 1998 was still under the majority system rather than the OBO system. Slutskaya, who I think technically gave clearly the strongest skate among the three in the LP though should have placed lower than Bonaly in the SP, received two third place votes. Due to Bute being one short of receiving five third place votes, it all came down to who had the most fourth place votes, and Chen won the bronze based on that. Still, the majority of judges would not have given her the bronze, but luckily five judges put her in fourth and three put her in third (8 judges giving her 4th or higher) compared to four judges putting Maria in third and one judge putting her in fourth (5 judges giving her 4th or higher). Slutskaya had two judges putting her in third and three judges putting her in fourth (5 judges giving her 4th or higher). Interesting to note that for Slute, four judges put her in fifth thus a majority would not have had her in 5th, and it's worth noting that she tied with Bute in terms of 5th place ordinals as she also had four judges putting her in fifth. So nobody received a majority of third place ordinals and nobody received a majority of fifth place ordinals.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa said:
Don't forget that Lu Chen only had three third place ordinals for that LP, so 6 judges out of 9 would not have given her the bronze. Maria Butyrskaya received four third place ordinals and was one short of winning the bronze. I think 1998 was still under the majority system rather than the OBO system. Slutskaya, who I think technically gave clearly the strongest skate among the three in the LP though should have placed lower than Bonaly in the SP, received two third place votes. Due to Bute being one short of receiving five third place votes, it all came down to who had the most fourth place votes, and Chen won the bronze based on that. Still, the majority of judges would not have given her the bronze, but luckily five judges put her in fourth and three put her in third (8 judges giving her 4th or higher) compared to four judges putting Maria in third and one judge putting her in fourth (5 judges giving her 4th or higher). Slutskaya had two judges putting her in third and three judges putting her in fourth (5 judges giving her 4th or higher). Interesting to note that for Slute, four judges put her in fifth thus a majority would not have had her in 5th, and it's worth noting that she tied with Bute in terms of 5th place ordinals as she also had four judges putting her in fifth. So nobody received a majority of third place ordinals and nobody received a majority of fifth place ordinals.
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:rofl: and people still try to say that IJS is too complicated for the casual viewer :rofl:
 
antmanb said:
:rofl: and people still try to say that IJS is too complicated for the casual viewer :rofl:
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Exactly. Another thing is IJS at least captures the actual difference in the short program.

For me, Butyrskaya's short program was heads and shoulders above Slutskaya's, esp with Slutskaya's popped combo. However, under 6.0, they were 2 places apart and "were in control of their destiny" for the bronze - which I think is kind of unfair.
 
Marco said:
Exactly. Another thing is IJS at least captures the actual difference in the short program.

For me, Butyrskaya's short program was heads and shoulders above Slutskaya's, esp with Slutskaya's popped combo. However, under 6.0, they were 2 places apart and "were in control of their destiny" for the bronze - which I think is kind of unfair.
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Especially when others such as Bonaly, Malinina, and Sokolova skated stronger short programs.
 
essence_of_soy said:
Especially when others such as Bonaly, Malinina, and Sokolova skated stronger short programs.
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That might be an interesting comparison in IJS to see how other elements and program components might balance out with one jump mistake.
 
I think the panel in Nagano was at least consistent in rewarding "freer" skates over more cautious ones. Butyrskaya looked terrified (to me) and skated very cautiously, stiffly, and nervously. It almost unrecognizable as the same program she skated so freely and confidently the next year.

Chen had the element of surprise working for her on multiple levels: that she was even in the final group after being 25th the year before and lackluster in her GPs; that she was making it through her jumps (cheating them a bit), and she essentially threw in a triple toe-triple toe at the last minute -- at least "standing up" one of the more difficult combinations of the event at the 3:50 mark of her program. She skated at her 110% of her ability, versus Butyrskaya's 80%. I happen to think Butyrskaya's 80% may have objectively been better, but under the ordinal system, the combination of factors that Chen had on that night tended to sway the judges a lot -- e.g., Oksana Baiul.

We also can't judge underrotation like we do today; it's an entirely different system, and skaters may have made different choices had they competed under today's system. < was almost never a factor, and even << would usually only result in a slight ding.

As for Chen's 1997 long program, this is a "holy grail" of skating videos, believed to have been televised but with no one having a copy. Years ago, someone claimed to have a copy, but it never materialized.
 
bardtoob said:
Bonaly's was the best of her career and she should have gotten more credit for the 3T-3T.
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The old days when a 3toe3toe is not worth a 3lutz2toe.

I have to rewatch again though because Surya tends to attract minor deductions on spins where she doesn't do sufficient rotations, etc.
 
eurodance2001 said:
I agree; I had it 5.6 for elements and 5.7 for presentation. I thought Caravan was an excellent choice for her and it was skated and delivered with conviction and maturity.
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Didn't Surya supposedly have a deduction for lack spin revolutions? I really don't feel like going back and counting spins right now though. ;)

Anyways, I agree with you. I think Caravan was a great program for her, too, and thought she definitely could have been placed 4th, it was just so much more powerful, secure, and confident than Chen Lu.

But it is important to remember back in the late 90s to early 00s, you NEEDED a 3lutz in the short program. The 3toe3toe was seen as more of a novelty, especially in the SP, and you better be doing a lutz or flip out of footwork. It wasn't until IJS that 3toe3toe was significantly more valuable than a 3lutz2toe. You really couldn't get into the top 10 without a lutz.

Louis said:
I think the panel in Nagano was at least consistent in rewarding "freer" skates over more cautious ones. Butyrskaya looked terrified (to me) and skated very cautiously, stiffly, and nervously. It almost unrecognizable as the same program she skated so freely and confidently the next year.
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Yep. For years, I always (along with Scott) thought she two-footed the lutz and the flip, but getting to watch in HD shows that both jumps were clean, albeit stiff. She landed 5 clean triples in the first half of the program! It wasn't her best performance ever, not even close, but she was well on her way to bronze, and for some reason then just froze up for the last third of the program. I've always found this odd; I could understand if she had made a major error at the beginning of the program and became dispirited, but that wasn't the case here.

She had been doing clean 3loop--2axel at the very end of the program the entire season, and only managed 2toe, 2toe, 2axel in the last 1:30 of the program. No momentum or fight at the end of the program, which was such a contrast to Chen's gutsy performance.
 
alchemy void said:
But it is important to remember back in the late 90s to early 00s, you NEEDED a 3lutz in the short program. The 3toe3toe was seen as more of a novelty, especially in the SP, and you better be doing a lutz or flip out of footwork. It wasn't until IJS that 3toe3toe was significantly more valuable than a 3lutz2toe. You really couldn't get into the top 10 without a lutz.
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Based on how she was scored at worlds (which admittedly, ranged from 1st to 13th so it might not be the best example), I think Hubert could have got away with a triple toe/triple toe combo and a solo triple flip and would have been at worst 4th in the short in Nagano.
 
casken said:
Based on how she was scored at worlds (which admittedly, ranged from 1st to 13th so it might not be the best example), I think Hubert could have got away with a triple toe/triple toe combo and a solo triple flip and would have been at worst 4th in the short in Nagano.
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Definitely. And earlier in the season she (famously) beat a subpar Lipinski at Lalique. I really think Hubert, with a totally clean SP, and skating in the final SP flight, gets third in the SP, and probably steals an ordinal or two away from Lipinski as well. Perhaps even a first place ordinal from the French judge. ;)

Which would have made her LP meltdown the next day all the more legendary. :p
 
alchemy void said:
Which would have made her LP meltdown the next day all the more legendary. :p
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Just like 1992.

But out of 4 Olympics Hubert attended, the ones where she melted down worst were the ones that preceded her best (4th-place) finishes at Worlds.
 
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