Lookism in Ice Dancing

[Jun Y]

Disclaimer: Yes, I know beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but there is nevertheless collective social standards for what is generally considered beautiful, which evolve but not drastically.

I am often struck by how much better looking ice dancers are than singles and pairs skaters. The average level of beauty, male or female, in ice dancing is way above real life and somewhat above the rest of skating. So I looked up recent Worlds medalists and, not surprisingly, found no one who is not at least cute/pretty. The vast majority of the medalists are at or above the social standard for beauty.

So I wonder: How many ice dancers were able to rise to the top level despite having ordinary, average looks? I can only think of Torvill and Dean as more or less average, and I think Margolio is average for an Italian guy. OTOH, there are a lot of fairly ordinary-looking pairs champions. I also wonder how many skaters would have succeeded in ice dancing but were discouraged early on because of unconscious lookism.

I have tried to remember any ice dancer with striking talent but below-average looks ... and failed. Is this a modern phenomenon? Was the skating community less lookist in the early days of ice dancing?

 

[Spun Silver]

I'm sure you had good intentions but I truly dislike the idea of this thread. A list of ugly ice dancers? Why would we want to have such a thing?

There aren't any ugly ice dancers anyway!!

 

[Vash01]

Why are the looks more important than their skills on ice? Better talk about their ice dance skills.

 

[MsZem]

When the Harry Potter movies were first cast, the actors were very young. Nobody knew how they'd look a decade later. The same is true for skaters - I doubt anyone is leaving skating at a young age because they're not pretty enough to succeed. And by the time skaters achieve a higher level, there's a lot that can be done with good styling and makeup.

 

[Jun Y]

There have been bald pairs medalists and ordinary looking singles champions, but we cannot talk about non-beautiful ice dancers.

My thinking is exactly about skating skills, and why looks appear to be more important than skills, which is a phenomenon not decided by me. I am watching a bunch of kids competing in lower level pattern dances. Some are quite talented. Will they give up ice dancing soon because they are not growing into beautiful young adults?

 

[Vagabond]

Asking people to single out others for not being good-looking is contemptible.

 

[Jun Y]

Well I guess this is a topic more taboo and offensive than anything in the world. Everyone is beautiful and no one is even ordinary. Yet not talking about it doesn't mean skaters aren't judged by their looks. I am wondering why looks seem to be a bigger factor in ice dancing than in singles and pairs. It's not necessary to single out any particular skater to discuss lookism in ice dancing in general.

 

[Sylvia]

I think it's the "non-beautiful" in this thread title that offensive to some. Perhaps you would considering changing it to something that might result in a more productive discussion?

 

[Jun Y]

I think it's the "non-beautiful" in this thread title that offensive to some. Perhaps you would considering changing it to something that might result in a more productive discussion?

How about "Lookism in Ice Dancing"? But how does one change the thread title? Or do I have to delete and start a new one?

 

[Vagabond]

t's not necessary to single out any particular skater to discuss lookism in ice dancing in general.

And yet, you did just that:

I can only think of Torvill and Dean as more or less average, and I think Margolio is average for an Italian guy.

Why?

 

[Vash01]

How about "Lookism in Ice Dancing"? But how does one change the thread title? Or do I have to delete and start a new one?

You can edit the thread title within 24 hours of starting a thread.

 

[Jun Y]

And yet, you did just that:

Why?

First, I personally do not feel it's an insult to call someone ordinary looking or average looking, but I understand some might feel it is. Second, I wanted to point out how rare and difficult it is for an average-looking but excellent skater to succeed in ice dancing.

Ted Chiang once wrote a short story about lookism, "Liking What You See: A Documentary,” that left a deep impression on me. Obviously humans are hard wired to prefer good looks, beautiful faces and bodies, and attribute unrelated qualities to them. But why ice dancing in particular compared with singles and pairs? I think it's a question related to the objectivity of figure skating as a sport, why quads are highly valued, and all the ways that we believe we are unbiased when we really are not.

 

[Vagabond]

I personally do not feel it's an insult to call someone ordinary looking or average looking, but I understand some might feel it is.

Asking others to single out specific ice dancers for not being "at least cute/pretty," which is essentially what you did here

I looked up recent Worlds medalists and, not surprisingly, found no one who is not at least cute/pretty. The vast majority of the medalists are at or above the social standard for beauty.

So I wonder: How many ice dancers were able to rise to the top level despite having ordinary, average looks?

is trolling.

 

[Jun Y]

Asking others to single out specific ice dancers for not being "at least cute/pretty," which is essentially what you did here

is trolling.

Maybe not everyone believes that naming specific ice dancers who have overcome lookism to succeed is a terrible insult to them.

 

[MsZem]

Well I guess this is a topic more taboo and offensive than anything in the world.

Calm down.

A general discussion of whether looks help in an aesthetically driven sport is one thing. Asking people to single out skaters that they think are unattractive is quite another.

And I'll repeat: makeup, when applied well, can go a long way.

 

[Vash01]

I can't think of any skater or ice dancer who is "average looking" or "ordinary looking". I watch how they skate. Their looks are irrelevant to me. Plus, I feel it is impolite to talk about someone not being good looking. So I may not continue this discussion.

 

[clairecloutier]

I think I get your point with this thread @Jun Y. But commenting on skaters' looks is like commenting on their weight. There's just no way to do it without offending someone or saying something that comes out wrong (however well-intentioned it may have been).

Anyway I'm old-school and still believe that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (Although today's Tinder world is going in a different direction.) I have some friends whom the world would consider plain, but I consider beautiful. I feel the same way about many of the "less-beautiful" skaters.

 

[skategal]

I think it's that looking good is emphasized more in ice dance so up and coming ice dancers devote more time to aesthetics than others.

Anyone can be good looking/attractive if you are in shape, have good styling in costumes, and have good hair and makeup.

 

[chameleonster]

Beauty is subjective, but I think there is a case to be made that at the very least ice dancers pay more attention to styling than other disciplines. For instance, Ashley Wagner and Madison Chock often room together at competitions, and I remember Ashley posting a story on instagram joking about what its like to room with an ice dancer, showing her small collection of makeup that covered at most a fifth of the counter, and then Madison's pile of products that covered the rest. Ice dancers generally practice in full costume and makeup at competitions whereas the other disciplines generally wear training clothes. I also regularly see clips or fluff pieces about female ice dancers doing their partner's makeup and hair, supervising their haircuts at the salon, and designing the costumes.

 

[chapis]

Ice dance is the most subjective category. Usually you read people praising a program, a costume, a look in ice dance, it is very difficult find people saying: omg, look at her counter, or polls or threads talking about who does the best rocker, like people does with who has the best lutz or the best 3-3?.

So, singles skaters don´t feel so much pressure that their scores depend on liking to people, people can give a standing ovation to a single skater, but if another skater arrives landing 3a, quads and 3-3 with a mediocre choreography and average look, it does not matter if nobody stands up to applaud him/her , the judges have to give her/him the points.

 

[snoopy]

Yeah we never talk about bad hair or weight or anything like that.

I think ice dance *partners* can be pickier when choosing because dance is not SO specialized as pairs and singles - so less attractive people get weeded out. If someone is a talented pairs skater, someone else is going to latch onto them because the lack of supply. I'm not even sure it's the judging because the most beautiful dancers don't really win. I think the weeding happens earlier than that.

 

[Vagabond]

I presume that the weeded-out would-be ice dancers take up other sports like ice hockey that aren't so fiercely competitive.

 

[Jun Y]

I think I get your point with this thread @Jun Y. But commenting on skaters' looks is like commenting on their weight. There's just no way to do it without offending someone or saying something that comes out wrong (however well-intentioned it may have been).

That's very true. I often forget that my regard for beauty is not on the same level as the mainstream.

Also this doesn't help me win arguments with non-skating fans about whether ice dancing is a real sport or not.

 

[jlai]

I do think culturally for some reason it's not ok to say someone is not good looking; it's like everyone has to be a winning student in school thing.
I didn't grow up in that type of culture, but I can see how this is hard to discuss in an international forum.

I also agree that makeup, hairdo and costume go a long way. Not in ice dance, but look at how Shen and Zhao looked when they started and how they looked later.

 

[twizzletoes76]

I think this is a fair thread and Jun Y raises a good point: does lookism play more of a role in ice dance than in other disciplines of skating? I know I read somewhere long ago that athletes in general are more "attractive" than non-athletes just because so much about performing well has to do with having good symmetry. Ice dance as someone pointed out above is also a more subjective discipline than freestyle or pairs. Even though our own tastes in what we see as attractive might be personal, for the most part, I think we can all recognize certain universal standards of beauty. And, if we are to be fair and honest, we might also admit that we like watching attractive people skate because--there is often a part of us that wishes we can be those skaters on the ice. However, I'm not convinced that ice dancers are any more attractive or less attractive than skaters from other disciplines. But, as a fan, I will say I have been partial to watching teams develop that have certain looks that I like--or, where the partners have good chemistry between them: examples, Davis & White, Ilinykh & Katsapalov.

 

[jlai]

Not at the senior level, and without naming names, I think a certain very talented US ice dancing team on the jgp circuit this year to be talented, though not stunning looking in appearance. So at least at the junior level, appearance is not everything. We could follow these young teams and see if there is a sudden transformation in appearance in a few years (in which case, it could be makeup and hair) or what happens to them.

eta: Just to add, the vast majority of ice dance themes are love and sex, so looks may count even more there.

 

[SmallFairy]

Beauty is subjective, but I think there is a case to be made that at the very least ice dancers pay more attention to styling than other disciplines. For instance, Ashley Wagner and Madison Chock often room together at competitions, and I remember Ashley posting a story on instagram joking about what its like to room with an ice dancer, showing her small collection of makeup that covered at most a fifth of the counter, and then Madison's pile of products that covered the rest. Ice dancers generally practice in full costume and makeup at competitions whereas the other disciplines generally wear training clothes. I also regularly see clips or fluff pieces about female ice dancers doing their partner's makeup and hair, supervising their haircuts at the salon, and designing the costumes.

Yes, ice dancers are indeed so tiffed. When at championships I watch practices.... Singles and pair skaters will show up looking like they're going to - yes, you guessed it, practice, in ordinary practice clothes, hair in ponytail, nothing fancy. Ice dancers will show up in their full competition outfits, with styled hair, wearing tons of make-up...at 06.30 in the morning

 

[Jun Y]

And, if we are to be fair and honest, we might also admit that we like watching attractive people skate because--there is often a part of us that wishes we can be those skaters on the ice.

Of course, I like watching beautiful people too. When it comes to ice dancing, beautiful rockers and brackets and choctaws and twizzles can be equally pleasing, in a way that's different from quad jumps are thrilling. Unfortunately the latter are less talked about than the former. The question is whether judging the skills is biased by looks. I suspect yes.

Because I realize that I am as bias as anyone in favor of beautiful skaters, I feel partial to some (not all) skaters who aren't conventionally beautiful and want to see them succeed more than their competitors. There are a couple of junior ice dancers --- I won't name them as it's not polite --- that I'm especially pulling for, but I worry that they will be held back because of the lookism.

 

[Anyasnake]

Lookism does play a role in Ice Dance. However there are a couple of things that can be pointed out :

Being an athlete, you practice every day, you are full of muscles. You follow a healthy diet. That plays a huge role in your well-being, thus in the perception that other have on you. Also, since you've done that for years, you must have more presence than someone who does not practice any sport. Plus as a skater you have to be fit all the time, otherwise you won't make it through the day, or lift your partner or being lifted too.

Second, look at former ice dancers that are now coaching like Marie-France Dubreuil or Barbara Fusar-Poli. They radiate (Whether one can think they are "pretty" or "beautiful" doesn't matter, the look and perception is what we remember). They kept those habits an ice dancer have : healthy life, great posture, not neglect your appearance. They could come without make-up, you could still see they are skaters/ice dancer.
Talking about posture : look how they carry themselves, all of them. It's not just the skaters/ ice dancers that often look great, dancers too. It's more part of the behaviour than something one could call "good genes".

Ice dance is about presentation : you show up at competition practice in dresses/practice dresses, but not outfits, you have your make-up on (not full-on just what's needed). I think this is also a respect gesture for judges and officials who are here (If I were a coach, I would ask my student to come clean and dressed in official practice). These little habits just don't leave you in your everyday life.

It's not "taboo" talking about lookism in skating, but whether we find someone "beautiful" is subjective, however everyone says : "Wow, the Ice dancers are so pretty". I think it's all about the presence, presentation, being fit and having good presentation habits (much more than singles or some pairs). We can find the beauty in everyone, the ice dancers know how to make it pop

(That being said, if someone wasn't "pretty" to my own standards... I couldn't care less !)

 

[overedge]

I think it was Lloyd Eisler who once said something like, the ideal female ice dancer is 5'7" and weighs 100 lbs., and he wasn't quite sure where you would find someone like that.

I know what @Jun Y is getting at, although I too wouldn't single out specific ice dancers as being not exceptionally beautiful. All high level skaters are really fit, but for women in singles and pairs, there are body types/builds that are more successful - especially in pairs, where there are no tall women. So maybe ice dance attracts a wider range of heights and builds, and looks become more important as a result.

I do agree too that makeup and costuming can help any skater look exceptionally beautiful. And in ice dance being able to do a convincing O face likely helps too