Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Wyliefan]

It's really a leap from "keep underage kids out of adult parties" to "Gracie's assault was her own fault." I don't think that's fair.

 

[PRlady]

Wow! Not for the first time, I almost don't know where to begin in response to one of your posts about sexual assault.

Children under the age of twenty-one, eighteen, or even sixteen can commit sexual assault. My brothers were younger than sixteen when they assaulted me. But, of course, most assailants are older than that. Bouncers aren't going to keep them out due to age.

People can be sexually assaulted at any age. Many victims are in their thirties and older.

And who is "they"? Gracie Gold? Her assailant was well into his twenties when he assaulted her. And if you are suggesting that Gold has only herself to blame for inviting him into her suite, then I really don't know what to say except that you need to educate yourself.

I apologize. I wasn’t thinking, just responding to the idea that Deanna Stellato could be kept out of a party.

But I do think, in a vague way, that the rules around competitions might be different for underage kids -they’re not supposed to be drinking, for one thing. At senior comps, the increase in age eligibility helps a bit, but should 17-year-olds be partying with people twice their age?

I don’t know. I don’t know the culture. Certainly people can be assaulted at any age but we usually take extra steps to protect underage kids, that’s all.

 

[Vagabond]

17-year-olds be partying with people twice their age?

You are still missing key points here. Solène Mazingue, who is 21, was apparently assaulted by someone who knew that she was on medication, not that she was drunk. I don't think that she has disclosed exactly where the. assault happened, but I somehow doubt that it was at a party. In any event, she is 21, and even if she was assaulted at a party, you have offered no useful suggestion as to how that assault, or other assaults on adults could have been avoided.

I know that I am not the only person on FSU who has been the victim of sexual assault. I don't think you are deliberately trying to be offensive, but, apology or not, you are continuing to be very offensive.

 

[PRlady]

You are still missing key points here. Solène Mazingue, who is 21, was apparently assaulted by someone who knew that she was on medication, not that she was drunk. I don't think that she has disclosed exactly where the. assault happened, but I somehow doubt that it was at a party. In any event, she is 21, and even if she was assaulted at a party, you have offered no useful suggestion as to how that assault, or other assaults on adults could have been avoided.

I know that I am not the only person on FSU who has been the victim of sexual assault. I don't think you are deliberately trying to be offensive, but, apology or not, you are continuing to be very offensive.

Then I apologize again. But again, I have no idea how to prevent assault in general in a partying culture, only that for kids who have special rules the risks might be somewhat mitigated. And I've never posted that all assaults occur while drinking, or posted anything that offered a solution for Gracie or Solange or other victims, I have no idea how to do that.

Nothing protects everyone, including kids, but that doesn’t mean that nothing should be tried.

 

[IHH0628]

This might mean little to nothing since my child hasn't reported but in our case:

1. Both the assailant and the victim were under age.
2. At least one of the assaults occurred a) during a National level competition b) AT a rink c) there was zero alcohol involved (I'm 99% sure because they were both competing).

So. Parties aren't the only problem. Not that they aren't ripe with potential victims, of course. But some people commit sexual assault when they are sober and the victim is sober. The issue IMO is deeper than the environmental circumstances.

 

[Willin]

The reason I brought up the parties is that they're another example of how these sports blur the lines for athletes between appropriate and inappropriate. Not all assaults will happen at parties or even happen to people that go to parties, but they are an example of how these high level athletes in all sports can have a very weird/skewed perception of who they know, how well they know them, or what they have to do to keep friends in that sport. It's not normal for an 18-year-old to go to a house party with a 28-year-old they look up to as a mentor (and who may coach younger skaters) - and yet it happens in sports.

There are plenty of other examples of how lines are blurred in a way that can lead to inappropriate actions - like the issue of men/boys in the sport being so favored. In certain countries there are hierarchies and rinks that allow for abuse (France not banning predators from its fed, USFS allegedly ignoring Dalilah's behavior). Even individual disciplines have issues - like for boys in synchro. But there's too many to name.

 

[once_upon]

We have a culture that favors the assaulter

In some cases society encourages assaults. Like boys will be boys. Or other boasting scenarios.

Until there is significant consequences and enforced consequences there won't be a lot of change.

 

[IHH0628]

The reason I brought up the parties is that they're another example of how these sports blur the lines for athletes between appropriate and inappropriate. Not all assaults will happen at parties or even happen to people that go to parties, but they are an example of how these high level athletes in all sports can have a very weird/skewed perception of who they know, how well they know them, or what they have to do to keep friends in that sport. It's not normal for an 18-year-old to go to a house party with a 28-year-old they look up to as a mentor (and who may coach younger skaters) - and yet it happens in sports.

There are plenty of other examples of how lines are blurred in a way that can lead to inappropriate actions - like the issue of men/boys in the sport being so favored. In certain countries there are hierarchies and rinks that allow for abuse (France not banning predators from its fed, USFS allegedly ignoring Dalilah's behavior). Even individual disciplines have issues - like for boys in synchro. But there's too many to name.

You articulate very well.

 

[Debbie S]

We have a culture that favors the assaulter

In some cases society encourages assaults. Like boys will be boys. Or other boasting scenarios.

Until there is significant consequences and enforced consequences there won't be a lot of change.

Exactly. And consider how relatively few sexual assaults result in a conviction. Many go unreported, and of those that are reported, it can be very hard to establish guilt, esp if the victim and assailant knew each other.

I hope Solene is getting the support she needs.

There are definitely aspects of skating culture that enable sexual assault or abuse. This is also true about other sports. And in non-athletic settings.....there is a lot in our society in general that favors the perpetrator, not the survivor. Those who commit assault need consequences, those who are assaulted need to be supported and encouraged to come forward and the legal system needs to not victimize them all over again.

The culture in skating needs to change and so does our society in general.

Banning someone from skating who has a conviction is a no-brainer, but there are so many more predators out there that either aren't reported or reports don't result in any conviction or disciplinary action. I would support suspending skaters with an active case (similar to how anyone who works with kids is suspended from their job if they are charged with abuse or assault...if they are found not guilty, they get their job back) but I could see how the ISU or NGBs wouldn't want to do that, could be a legal mess, but then you end up with no consequence (Sorensen) and in some cases, a survivor, like Solene, has to face their assailant at comps. Or else quit the sport.

I do think there needs to be an int'l SafeSport that recognizes national suspensions and bans. John Zimmerman shouldn't have been able to coach in Europe while serving his suspension and Brendan Kerry shouldn't be able to coach in Australia. And wasn't Lloyd Eisler suspended in.Canada, so he came to the U.S.?

 

[Amy L]

We have a culture that favors the assaulter

In some cases society encourages assaults. Like boys will be boys. Or other boasting scenarios.

I agree, and especially like what @IHH0628 says, skating in particular favors boys. They are so rare and hard to recruit into pairs or dance that IMO they're treated like little princes. Several years ago MamaFinster was on here and went berserker on me and a few other posters for "insulting" Balazs, her daughter's partner. This was a JGP event in Lake Placid and they didn't do that well. Balazs also had an unfortunate shirt that showed pit stains. She was incensed that he was being criticized because boys will quit if people are mean to them, and even responded to the comments of their short-term potential because of their lack of height difference and blamed it on the girl's weight, not height. She didn't try to defend her daughter one little iota, just the partner. And indeed, they had very short term potential so all that overprotection of Balazs did feck all for her daughter's pairs career. I don't know anything about Balazs. He may be the sweetest human in the universe and doesn't need to be treated like a prince, but it's the clearest example to me about how boys could potentially get away with anything.

 

[Vagabond]

It's really a leap from "keep underage kids out of adult parties" to "Gracie's assault was her own fault." I don't think that's fair.

This is exactly the sort of treatment victims of sexual assault face when they talk about their own experiences.

Whom did you choose to criticize, the person who suggested that "they" (party hosts, presumably) should be hiring bouncers, or the person, a survivor of sexual assault who suggested that it was unfair to blame a particular host (Gracie Gold) who did not take the suggestion precaution of hiring bouncers ended up getting raped?

What is wrong with you?

 

[Wyliefan]

Nothing. I never said or thought for a moment that the assault was Gracie's fault. I said that I didn't think anyone else said it was her fault, that's all.

 

[PRlady]

Nothing. I never said or thought for a moment that the assault was Gracie's fault. I said that I didn't think anyone else said it was her fault, that's all.

Thank you, because I wasn’t at all referring to Gracie or the circumstances of her assault, certainly not that she was the host which I didn’t remember. The “they” who could hire bouncers was any adult or bar hosting a party, to keep underaged drinkers out. But I withdraw the suggestion.

 

[Angelskates]

Thank you, because I wasn’t at all referring to Gracie or the circumstances of her assault, certainly not that she was the host which I didn’t remember. The “they” who could hire bouncers was any adult or bar hosting a party, to keep underaged drinkers out. But I withdraw the suggestion.

I think your suggestion is valid. Just because it won’t prevent all sexual assaults (nothing will), doesn’t mean it wouldn’t potentially prevent some, which is still better than none. There is no one solution to this problem, but there maybe multiple things we can suggest to make things even a little better. Cultural changes are slow, so things like bouncers to reduce underage drinking is potentially something that could prevent some sexual assaults, and in my mind is a valid suggestion even if it “just” prevents one.

 

[Karen-W]

You know, I've worked for 20+ years as an adult supporter & chaperone for my nieces' & older nephew's different youth groups. Both have annual conventions and yearly gatherings with dances & gala-type banquets. As a trained chaperone, one thing was made abundantly clear to us - alcohol was NOT permitted at these events since the vast majority of the membership were under the age of 21 - and that also went for when we stopped at a restaurant that served alcohol on the way to or from an event. It didn't matter that we were old enough to legally drink ourselves, the plain and simple fact was, it was viewed as inappropriate to drink at those activities.

I realize that competitions and development seminars/training camps are different and that there are plenty of people who are of legal drinking age at these activities and that alcohol is not always a contributing factor to sexual assault cases, but I'm not entirely sure the KSF doesn't have the right of it in banning alcohol for their skaters & chaperones at skating events with a very harsh penalty if they're found to be in violation of that regulation. Maybe it's not fair to everyone who can handle the alcohol and isn't a rapist, but, jeez... Maybe start with eliminating ONE of the contributing factors and telling the adults who grouse about it to suck it up and deal with it and help clean up and change the skating culture that is allowing these type of incidents to happen.

 

[MacMadame]

As someone who thinks you can't solve a problem if you don't identify the root cause, I think it's important to understand why 17-year-olds are partying with 28-year-olds. In school, people are grouped by age. So under-aged kids are mostly interacting with other under-aged kids. But in skating, people are grouped by test/competition level. This means a 14-year-old who is competing as a Senior is a peer of an adult who is competing as a Senior. In some ways, regular workplaces are also like this in that all the Senior engineers (for example) are peers of each other. The difference is that they are all adults.

This is particularly a problem in Pairs and Dance when two partners have a big age difference. Even if boys weren't treated like Princes (which is another contributing factor), having adults paired up with kids in an intimate situation blurs the lines even more.

I'm not sure how to combat this but I do think tightening up age limits helps. If there aren't any 14-year-olds competing at Senior, then there aren't kids interacting as peers with much older adults.

As for alcohol, I don't see why federations can't rule that alcohol can't be consumed during competitions. They have lots of rules about what can and can't be done including practicing on non-official ice which is a disqualifying action. Drinking during the competitions could certainly be another disqualifying action.

 

[Karen-W]

As for alcohol, I don't see why federations can't rule that alcohol can't be consumed during competitions. They have lots of rules about what can and can't be done including practicing on non-official ice which is a disqualifying action. Drinking during the competitions could certainly be another disqualifying action.

What about after the competition? Like at the post-competition Gala Banquet? Or is that still considered part of the competition as it's part of the entire event?

 

[Orm Irian]

What about after the competition? Like at the post-competition Gala Banquet? Or is that still considered part of the competition as it's part of the entire event?

Ditch the banquets. They're utterly irrelevant anyway, and losing them will save costs, eliminate one venue at which assaults can occur and mean the issue of whether alcohol can be legitimately consumed by (some) competitors after the competition has ended but before the event is over never even has to come up.

 

[BrightSkates]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop drinking

Me reading this thread^

 

[On My Own]

Me reading this thread^

You could just... not?

 

[On My Own]

I didn't even notice this.

I still haven't seen anything that confirms the people in the second photo are the people in the first photo.

Apart from its being published in the newspaper, you mean? Or do you think they'd publish it and risk a lawsuit? And Ando apologized after it was published for which precise reason?

 

[MacMadame]

What about after the competition? Like at the post-competition Gala Banquet? Or is that still considered part of the competition as it's part of the entire event?

I was envisioning the entire competition (not just when an individual's part is over) and I'd consider the Gala and banquet part of the competition.

Ditch the banquets. They're utterly irrelevant anyway, and losing them will save costs, eliminate one venue at which assaults can occur and mean the issue of whether alcohol can be legitimately consumed by (some) competitors after the competition has ended but before the event is over never even has to come up.

That works too.

The culture has to change at a minimum and limiting or eliminating alcohol at official events would be a good start. Then, the system has to change too but that's more complicated and harder.

 

[On My Own]

I'm glad people decided to wake up after disgusting comments like "let the girls have their fun" a few months ago. Hopefully, the value of such rules is more apparent, and such comments will cease to exist, even though it's not such a very strong hope.

Sometimes I find myself in agreement with Muslim countries on the excesses of the West. It's not fun, but I guess even the Devil can have a point.

 

[Trillian]

Ditch the banquets. They're utterly irrelevant anyway, and losing them will save costs, eliminate one venue at which assaults can occur and mean the issue of whether alcohol can be legitimately consumed by (some) competitors after the competition has ended but before the event is over never even has to come up.

I don’t have an opinion on banquets one way or another. But as far as whether restrictions on post-competition partying would be either appropriate or effective, one thing I think is important for people to understand about the party scene at competitions. Every single sexual assault that I’ve ever heard about happening in the context of a party at a skating event (and I have heard multiple stories, over many years, some reported and some not) has involved some kind of unofficial, unchaperoned room party. Not saying the banquets couldn’t get out of hand sometimes too - I have no idea - but as far as I’m aware, in general, that’s not the party everyone is talking about after the competition is over.

 

[Wyliefan]

Sometimes I find myself in agreement with Muslim countries on the excesses of the West. It's not fun, but I guess even the Devil can have a point.

Even under those regimes, women get assaulted and abused.

 

[Hedwig]

There need to be other ways than stopping partys (not opposed to outlawing alcohol even more severely for underage people and it could be outlawed at any Isu event)
When I think back on my youth, partys were such a highlight of life.
And socializing with fellow skaters is very important too.

It is not only skating. I bet every women in this thread has her history of sexual assault or at least having had sexual aggressions towards her. The whole culture in the whole world has to change with hard and fast rulings and punishments. Instead the opposite is true.
Just look at the Pelicot case and what this amazing brave woman has to suffer in court.

 

[MacMadame]

I don’t have an opinion on banquets one way or another. But as far as whether restrictions on post-competition partying would be either appropriate or effective, one thing I think is important for people to understand about the party scene at competitions. Every single sexual assault that I’ve ever heard about happening in the context of a party at a skating event (and I have heard multiple stories, over many years, some reported and some not) has involved some kind of unofficial, unchaperoned room party. Not saying the banquets couldn’t get out of hand sometimes too - I have no idea - but as far as I’m aware, in general, that’s not the party everyone is talking about after the competition is over.

It's about fostering a culture where alcohol is not considered necessary to have a good time.

 

[BittyBug]

I was envisioning the entire competition (not just when an individual's part is over) and I'd consider the Gala and banquet part of the competition.

The vast majority of people are capable of drinking responsibly and don't suddenly become sexual predators just because they had a drink or two, but you want to tell a 30-something pairs skater or ice dancer who might like to have a glass of wine with a nice meal to celebrate after their event is over that they can't? And if you ban alcohol at the closing ceremony what you'll end up with is everyone who is of legal drinking age going elsewhere to celebrate, and that includes the officials.

How about instead focusing on the culture that leads some boys and men to believe that their urges take priority.

 

[Private Citizen]

The vast majority of people are capable of drinking responsibly and don't suddenly become sexual predators just because they had a drink or two[....]

Alcohol doesn't cause sexual assault, but it is a huge risk factor. Sadly, some people do become sexual predators when they're extremely drunk. Consent can also get blurry when one or both parties is heavily intoxicated. Statistics indicate that ~50% of all sexual assaults and 75+% of sexual assaults of college age people are linked with intoxication. And not to just to women. Nearly half of gay and bisexual men, which make up a significant segment of the skating world, report being sexually assaulted in US surveys.

I don't think the solution is to ban alcohol or not have closing banquets, but restricting alcohol consumption is one practical thing that federations can do to reduce the risk of sexual assault. Age checks and drink tickets might be two good ideas. Don't make it easy for anyone (including coaches and officials) to get hammered.

This can't be the only solution, and I agree on education, culture change, etc. But we can't ignore alcohol.

 

[barbk]

I have (unfortunately) had a number of teen girls who have been assaulted, sexually or physically. AFAIK, alcohol was a contributing factor in all but one of those cases, sometimes used by the perpetrator, sometimes used by the survivor, and many times used by both.

Two sets of parents were convicted for providing alcohol for the kids at a house party in our community, and I have no comprehension of why four adults would ever think that was a good idea.