Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

Lanie said:
Skate Canada's statement is beyond breathtakingly obtuse. Wow. So they will, essentially, do nothing, it seems?
Click to expand...
What do you expect them to do? He is not guilty until he is proven guilty by the court. Presumption of innocence. Is not it how it should work.
 
I would like to believe in due process if anyone in the system had ever given a damn about making sure justice was also served for women. The default for many is going to be believing the victim now until things improve*. I haven't forgotten about the other Canadian but he's also retired and largely invisible now. It's unfortunate that he will most likely get away with it too.


*Unless they are Democrats voting for any Democrat or any others in their special groups. Thanks @tony, I still haven't forgotten that bullshit. Because the lesson there with Biden and Clinton is get raped by Republicans to get any support. It's part of the list of crap I remember at the voting booth when they say Democrats care about women.
 
Lanie said:
Skate Canada's statement is beyond breathtakingly obtuse. Wow. So they will, essentially, do nothing, it seems?
Click to expand...
Personally, I think Skate Canada is in a no-win situation here and they've been in that spot since the victim filed her report with OISC. The alleged incident happened 11 years ago, long before Soerensen was representing Canada, not to mention it happened in another country. As @Vagabond has correctly pointed out this is a "he said/she said" situation and while I tend to err on the side of believing the victim, if Soerensen denied either a) that it ever happened or b) that it was non-consensual, then what exactly should Skate Canada do while the investigation is ongoing?

Sidelining the team when nothing has been proven would certainly 1) cause damage to the team's World Standing, 2) invite all sorts of questions (remember all the speculation surrounding Calalang/Johnson when she was suspended for the drug finding?), and 3) set a precedent going forward that any skater charged with sexual assault/abuse should be suspended from the High Performance/National Team and not allowed to represent Canada internationally - which could invite false charges in the future that are not just a nuisance but could be deliberate attempts to undermine a direct competitor.

I can't really fault Skate Canada for how they have handled the situation. Sure, in a perfect world, FBSoer would have chosen to retire instead of compete and put everyone in the awkward position of having to explain what they knew when or why they're choosing to support/coach the team given the allegations. But the bottom line is that Soerensen is entitled to defend himself and not have his career derailed should the allegation prove, if not false, then at least impossible to corroborate.
 
Last edited:
Lara111 said:
What do you expect them to do? He is not guilty until he is proven guilty by the court. Presumption of innocence. Is not it how it should work.
Click to expand...

In many occupations, especially those that involve contact with vulnerable populations (e.g. children), an accusation is enough to justify a suspension until the case is resolved. It's an option to protect the safety of coworkers or clients.
 
haribobo said:
"Not fair to his world ranking" is really a pathetic argument. 😒 jfc
Click to expand...
Well, you can think it's a pathetic argument all you like but not allowing them to compete WOULD cause material and financial damage to the team and that is something they could sue Skate Canada over should the allegation not be proven. It's not even a matter of fair or unfair (and I didn't use that phrasing anyway) but whether or not there is potential damage that Skate Canada could be legally liable for.
 
No one competing at Worlds AFAIK is guaranteed any kind of payment unless they get a medal. It's likely that FB/S could win a medal, but it's not a given. Ice is slippery. I don't think they could sue for financial losses when those payments weren't contractually obligated to be made to them.
 
overedge said:
No one competing at Worlds AFAIK is guaranteed any kind of payment unless they get a medal. It's likely that FB/S could win a medal, but it's not a given. Ice is slippery. I don't think they could sue for financial losses when those payments weren't contractually obligated to be made to them.
Click to expand...
Not true. The top 6 at Worlds earn prize money, and I’m pretty sure for dance it’s $10,000 to the 6th-place team. Also potential big money at 4CC where they would likely be, at the least, fighting for a bronze.
 
Fortunately, this is a message board and we aren't lawyers for Nikolaj. I understand potential legal arguments but I don't think skating assignments are legally owed to the highest ranking teams, necessarily. I assume most criteria is written with wiggle room. Regardless of outcome of this, Bashynska/B, Lauriault/L, and Fabbri/A are also promising teams worthy of assignments.
 
overedge said:
In many occupations, especially those that involve contact with vulnerable populations (e.g. children), an accusation is enough to justify a suspension until the case is resolved. It's an option to protect the safety of coworkers or clients.
Click to expand...
That's how it works in skating with coaches, for instance. But he's not a coach or attending the nationals as one.

Can national sports federations just kick people out of an event for which they've qualified for by the rules without any sort of procedural rights? I honestly don't know how the process works in this case; in the US, once SafeSport takes a matter up, the USFS literally can't do anything else about it pending determination.

No denying that if they show up his presence is going to be a colossal distraction for everybody.
 
On My Own said:
Here's a comment on reddit from someone I believe is an attorney (I recognize the handle from twitter): https://www.reddit.com/r/FigureSkat...?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but as a Connecticut resident and, like, a HUMAN, I cannot get over the fact that the statute of limitations on RAPE in Connecticut was FIVE YEARS. FIVE YEARS???? That's unconscionable.

rfisher said:
You're a lawyer and know very well there has to be due process for both the accuser and defendant for there to be justice for all. If this has been under investigation since July, perhaps it would be prudent to wait to see what the outcome of said investigation is before making assumptions. JMO.
Click to expand...

Thankfully, FSU is not a court of law.

nylynnr said:
"I have no comment." Answer to any follow-up: "I am focusing on myself only."

Same goes for the I.AM coaches.

Skate Canada officials will be the ones on the hot seat, so to speak.
Click to expand...

Yes, that would be the correct answer, but that does not mean that it will not be distracting for the other competitors, probably especially the IAM skaters. These questions aren't innocuous. They could potentially be triggering to some skaters.
 
The top six at Worlds get payments, but no one is guaranteed those payments just for showing up. They still have to place to get that money. Some competitors have a better chance than others, but it's still hypothetical until the top six are determined. A federation choosing not to send a competitor to Worlds is not denying them a financial payment that was guaranteed to that competitor.
 
tony said:
The 'other' situation (referenced today in this thread) that came to light right after(?) the Olympics involving a Canadian skater was sure shoved under the rug and forgotten quickly, from what I saw.
Click to expand...
I think it was last spring, after Worlds and before WTT. And the skater was never named (and no complaint filed or investigation) so there wasn't much people could say.

In 2019 (IIRC), a former skater accused Logan Giuletti-Schmidt of sexual assault in a social media post. People here talked about it and with social media being what it is, I'm sure the majority of the U.S. skating community was aware of it. That wasn't quite the same as this situation or Coughlin..no investigation or suspension...but fwiw, Logan was coaching (developmental comp) at the U.S. Classic a few months later and there was no sign anything was amiss. Meaning everyone was very friendly toward him, that I could see. Sure, people's public behavior might not be what they were thinking privately, but I'm just commenting on what I saw. I suspect TPTB and others in the skating community just dismissed the allegation: Logan was the good guy they knew accused by some retired skater who isn't even in skating anymore.

I would expect Nik to be warmly received by skaters and others. Even though there is an actual investigation and mainstream news coverage, I suspect in most people's eyes, it's random skater from the past (who probably never got to Worlds or Olys) vs Olympian/World competitor/everyone's buddy and their buddy would never do anything like that. Unfortunately, for assault survivors, that's how skating culture is (and, too often, most of the rest of society). :(

(And for the record, I was a big fan of Lynn/Logan when they skated and had a couple brief convos with him at comps. But I believed his accuser, b/c what would she have to gain by making a false allegation, at that point, and I feel the same about Nik/his accuser.)
 
overedge said:
The top six at Worlds get payments, but no one is guaranteed those payments just for showing up. They still have to place to get that money. Some competitors have a better chance than others, but it's still hypothetical until the top six are determined. A federation choosing not to send a competitor to Worlds is not denying them a financial payment that was guaranteed to that competitor.
Click to expand...
Your post said AFAIK the medalists are the only ones coming away with money. I was pointing out that it’s incorrect and it extends past the medalists. Of course nothing is guaranteed for anyone.

But last year, $36,000 (exhibition not included) of their prize money came from 4CC/Worlds placements and they are presumed to be up in that top tier fighting for prize money on the basis of the Grand Prix (and Final).
 
Last edited:
I don't see a communication yet for prize money for ISU Championships. Last year, they held the meeting in September 2022 and released Communication 2516 for the 2022/23 season in February 2023:
https://www.isu.org/short-track/rules/stk-communications/29720-isu-communication-2516/file

Top six at Worlds, Euros/4C's, and Jr. Worlds get money. All of the exhibition skaters did as well, paid for by the local organizing member. Different amounts for Jr. and Sr. and medalists/non-medalists, but not a bad payday.

Edit to add: Is any Canadian skater or team guaranteed a spot at any championships, or just "consideration" in the selection process? Is there a strict numeric formula to decide, like there is in some countries? Is the national champion guaranteed a spot with the rest discretionary?
 
Last edited:
Rhumba d’Amour said:
I sort of disagree. Our society being what it is, we might have folks who would not normally attend the Championships turn out, just out of curiosity.

There might be demonstrations in support of the victim, too, which would be appropriate.
Click to expand...
I would be shocked if any of this happened. This is skating. If anything, there will be public support for Nik because "he's a good guy and couldn't have done this."

overedge said:
The top six at Worlds get payments, but no one is guaranteed those payments just for showing up. They still have to place to get that money. Some competitors have a better chance than others, but it's still hypothetical until the top six are determined. A federation choosing not to send a competitor to Worlds is not denying them a financial payment that was guaranteed to that competitor.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works though. If Skate Canada removes FBSo from Nationals and doesn't send them to Worlds and then Nik is exonerated, he could sue not only for lost earnings from Worlds but also some monetary number that would represent the loss of future earnings because of how not being at Worlds would impact their $$ value as a team going forward. I.e., all the shows they may not be invited to, having to take less money for their work because they didn't earn any rankings/medals at Nationals/Worlds, not being able to charge as much as a coach, etc. Then, they could ask for punitive damages on top of it.

Yes, it's all theoretical but courts make these sorts of judgments all the time.
 
Honestly, I feel like sexual assault allegations should be treated more like doping allegations. It is extremely rare to make false reports, and the backlash against any false report would be swift and fierce.

I can’t see any high level competitor with an ounce of integrity making a false report just to win a competition. They would risk losing their entire social network, their reputation, and that win would be marred forever.

ETA: Also - given that women are the most likely to be sexually assaulted/make reports - I doubt there are many women who don’t know someone who has been the victim of SA. So given most of us know how serious it is and how much it impacts someone, as well as the cost of having to come forward and say that a terrible thing was done to you - why would anyone choose to do that if it’s not true.
 
Last edited:
Colonel Green said:
That's how it works in skating with coaches, for instance. But he's not a coach or attending the nationals as one.
Click to expand...

I agree. But he is attending Nationals as a funded athlete, and he trains at a rink with skaters of all ages. Both of those might be considered as well. I think this situation will be a test of the practices and policies that OSIC has been charged with administering. FWIW its registry of disciplinary actions hasn't been opened to the public yet.
sportintegritycommissioner.ca

ABUSE-FREE SPORT REGISTRY

sportintegritycommissioner.ca sportintegritycommissioner.ca

Colonel Green said:
Can national sports federations just kick people out of an event for which they've qualified for by the rules without any sort of procedural rights? I honestly don't know how the process works in this case; in the US, once SafeSport takes a matter up, the USFS literally can't do anything else about it pending determination.

No denying that if they show up his presence is going to be a colossal distraction for everybody.
Click to expand...

This process - the independent process, not the SC process which is pretty ineffective - is all new in Canada. And the first commissioner just stepped down, which means a loss of knowledge as to how the process is supposed to operate.
 
kwanfan1818 said:
Edit to add: Is any Canadian skater or team guaranteed a spot at any championships, or just "consideration" in the selection process? Is there a strict numeric formula to decide, like there is in some countries? Is the national champion guaranteed a spot with the rest discretionary?
Click to expand...

"The HPDC [High Performance Development Committee] will exercise discretion with regard to the relative weight and priority of the Selection Criteria as
well as other relevant factors deemed appropriate in their decision-making process."

The criteria for Worlds selection - including "other relevant criteria deemed appropriate for selection" - are on page 5 of this document: https://skatecanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/2024-ISU-Championships-Selection-Criteria.pdf
 
Last edited:
leilaofpaper said:
Honestly, I feel like sexual assault allegations should be treated more like doping allegations. It is extremely rare to make false reports, and the backlash against any false report would be swift and fierce.
Click to expand...
A great way of encouraging false reports is to lower the evidentiary standards needed for a false report to have an effect.
 
Habs said:
Is it possible that the speculation last year about a Canadian male skater - who we all assumed was someone else - could have been about Nikolaj?
Click to expand...
This has already been discussed in other posts here, but the victim who accused a different Canadian male skater last year confirmed on X/Twitter that her abuser is not Nik: https://x.com/thescytheisdull/status/1743038571655659891?s=20

In another tweet/X post, this victim also confirmed she never reported her assault and that no one (assuming she means governing body, regulatory body, etc) reached out to her after she went public: https://x.com/thescytheisdull/status/1743095769505104289?s=20
 
I think most reasonable people on this board will accept that there is very little that Skate Canada can actually do at this point and we will likely see Sorensen at whatever he's assigned to this season. That doesn't mean we can't wish they could do more on a message board.
 
overedge said:
In many occupations, especially those that involve contact with vulnerable populations (e.g. children), an accusation is enough to justify a suspension until the case is resolved. It's an option to protect the safety of coworkers or clients.
Click to expand...
Yes, this. You'd expect them to suspend him pending an investigation or something, which is why I was pretty disgruntled with their statement, though yes, from a legal standpoint it's almost all they could say.
 
Rukia said:
I think most reasonable people on this board will accept that there is very little that Skate Canada can actually do at this point and we will likely see Sorensen at whatever he's assigned to this season. That doesn't mean we can't wish they could do more on a message board.
Click to expand...
And he will be received warmly bc of course Nic „would not do this“ and in his mind „it was not rape but just a bit rough and she is making a huge tantrum now when she could have said sth then and why now?“ and you can hear all of the women vomiting who had to experience sexual violence in our lives and it is much too many of us.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 6 (members: 0, guests: 6)
Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information