Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[ice coverage]

This is a good point overall of course, but in this case, the commenter is an ice dancer who represented the USA internationally a few times around the same time as Morgan, so she does perhaps have some firsthand experience.

Not to speak for @Theatregirl1122 but I read her comment as referring to the posters on Instagram who responded to Morgan's comment with "not all male skaters are abusive". Not referring to Morgan herself.

What emilieh is saying is that a person who also was a (different) former Team USA ice dancer is the one who made the comment on Morgan's post.
In other words, emilieh was not referring to Morgan herself.

 

[Lara111]

Of course the first commenter on IG starts listing the nice dance guys. Is everyone supposed to make comments with "not all men" and a list of boys who aren't naughty? When the subject of a discussion is bad behavior, victims are still expected to praise those who didn't abuse them. It's proving the point of the culture of coddling imo

Her post isn't entirely accurate and casts a negative light on all male figure skaters. I do not even know who she is even though i follow this sport for a while now.

 

[overedge]

Her post isn't entirely accurate and casts a negative light on all male figure skaters. I do not even know who she is even though i follow this sport for a while now.

Do you mean Morgan Matthews?

Morgan Matthews (figure skater) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She's right. Male skaters do get treated more favourably, because there's fewer of them at pretty much every level of competition. She's also right in saying that male pairs skaters and ice dancers get treated even more favourably, because without them (until things change) ice dance and pairs competition wouldn't exist.

 

[Amy L]

Her post isn't entirely accurate and casts a negative light on all male figure skaters. I do not even know who she is even though i follow this sport for a while now.

No, she didn't. And she even complimented one of her ex-partners in her comments.

You're another example of "butbutbut not all men!" She was talking about the culture in general and she has plenty enough experience to have formed an educated opinion.

Why is there at least two people on this thread who have to answer "I don't know her" as if only famous people can be abused? Morgan is also a former World Jr Champion, she was very elite in her day. Is she allowed to say something now.

 

[Lara111]

Do you mean Morgan Matthews?

Morgan Matthews (figure skater) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She's right. Male skaters do get treated more favourably, because there's fewer of them at pretty much every level of competition. She's also right in saying that male pairs skaters and ice dancers get treated even more favourably, because without them (until things change) ice dance and pairs competition wouldn't exist.

Can you give an example of favourabe treatment?

 

[Lanie]

Men often get a lot of benefits. We'll pay you if you skate with our daughter! I'll pay your rent! Buy you a car! Pay for all fees!

I have heard that one often.

 

[Amy L]

... or getting married for a Green Card ...

 

[Debbie S]

For starters, there was a fluff piece aired in the 90s (I think on ABC, back when they had the USFS contract) on the rent-a-Russian trend in ice dance, where multiple families were interviewed about paying all the guy's expenses (obviously all training expenses but living expenses, travel, etc) so that he would skate with their daughter (and none of these were big name skaters). But even with U.S.-born skaters, there are multiple instances where the girl's parents are expected to pay the partner's bills, if the partner doesn't have a lot of money.

Morgan also discussed tryouts in one of her blogs, recounting her experiences at large group tryouts and noting how the girls were treated vs the boys.

 

[Rukia]

I've heard many times of boys getting their coaching fees covered by the girl's parents; they are often given places to live as well. Not to mention even well-known women have said they were made to adjust their technique to the man's rather than it being a give and take or even made to feel like the were never as good as the man. It's a huge problem.

 

[Lara111]

I've heard many times of boys getting their coaching fees covered by the girl's parents; they are often given places to live as well. Not to mention even well-known women have said they were made to adjust their technique to the man's rather than it being a give and take or even made to feel like the were never as good as the man. It's a huge problem.

I've heard many times of boys getting their coaching fees covered by the girl's parents; they are often given places to live as well. Not to mention even well-known women have said they were made to adjust their technique to the man's rather than it being a give and take or even made to feel like the were never as good as the man. It's a huge problem.

It's a dance. The man leads, the woman follows, and the woman adjusts.

 

[Karen-W]

It's a dance. The man leads, the woman follows, and the woman adjusts.

I believe the discussion is about partnered skating in general - there are often significant differences in jump technique as well as strengths and weaknesses in spin positions that would require adjustments on the part of one pairs skater or the other. It seems to me like the women in the partnership are basically told to make the adjustments & change their technique rather than requiring compromise between both partners.

Beyond that, in ice dance, there's plenty of side-by-side skating that does not have the male partner leading the female partner - in fact, probably more side-by-side skating than most ice dance purists would like. Skating in hold is such a rarity these days, we actually comment on it!

 

[Tesla]

It's a dance. The man leads, the woman follows, and the woman adjusts.

No. Women are equal partners. And you don’t know who Morgan Matthews is? Matthews and Zavozin are the only ones who beat Virtue and Moir at Junior Worlds. They were supposed to be V/M's main rivals, not D/W.

 

[Vagabond]

It's a dance. The man leads, the woman follows, and the woman adjusts.

Pairs skating is not a dance. The female Pairs skater faces far more danger than her partner does.

Both Ice Dancing and Pair Skating are disciplines in a competitive sport. What holds true in recreational dance does not hold true in a sport.

Mixed Synchronized Diving is a sport too. The male diver does not "lead."

Try again.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Pairs skating is not a dance. The female Pairs skater faces far more danger than her partner does.

Both Ice Dancing and Pair Skating are disciplines in a competitive sport. What holds true in recreational dance does not hold true in a sport.

Mixed Synchronized Diving is a sport too. The male diver does not "lead."

Try again.

Lara111 knows this, her son was an ice dancer iirc

 

[overedge]

Male skaters also get a lot more leeway in their behavior. As in coaches, officials, club board members, and even parents will tolerate or excuse behavior from a male skater that would get a female skaters suspended or even kicked out of a club or training session.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

This is a good point overall of course, but in this case, the commenter is an ice dancer who represented the USA internationally a few times around the same time as Morgan, so she does perhaps have some firsthand experience.

I also said that abusers show a different face even to people they know.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

It's a dance. The man leads, the woman follows, and the woman adjusts.

I honestly don’t know why anyone is continuing to debate someone when they clearly show their true colors right here.

 

[overedge]

Can you give an example of favourabe treatment?

I can give you many examples. I'll give you three.

- A male skater (elite level) who punched a coach (not his coach) and was told "don't do that again" and nothing else. At the same rink, any female skaters who "talked back" to a coach or were perceived as lazy, disruptive, etc would be told to leave the session and not come back to the rink for a week, at minimum.

- A male ice dancer (low level competitive) who didn't want to do skating but had very wealthy parents that insisted he stay in the sport. He went through a series of partners, and every time a partnership broke up, it was always the girl's "fault". In training sessions, if there was a mistake, it was always the girl's "fault" and he would yell at her. Of all the partners he went through, only one partnership ended because the girl's parents refused to let their daughter skate with him any longer. Every other mom & dad let their daughter skate with this guy, some even telling their daughter that she should "stick it out", because they believed his stories about his previous partners not being "good enough" for him. Or they thought, those other girls couldn't handle him, but our daughter is different. He was a terrible skater in addition to being abusive BTW.

- A female skater (national level) who tried out for pairs with a male skater (national level) and then moved across the country to skate pairs with him, only to discover that his previous partner had left because he was so abusive to her. No one told her that before she agreed to skate with him. He cursed at her in practice whenever she did something "wrong", which was often because she was new to skating pairs and was learning. None of the coaches they were working with said anything or asked him to change his behaviour. The breaking point for her was when she landed a SBS jump "wrong" and he yelled at her and kicked her. Again, none of the coaches who witnessed this said or did anything. She quit the next day and moved back home.

And if you're thinking these must be pretty terrible rinks or clubs, all of them have produced national level competitors, and two have produced World and Olympics competitors.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Her post isn't entirely accurate and casts a negative light on all male figure skaters. I do not even know who she is even though i follow this sport for a while now.

You don’t remember Morgan Matthews? They had some pretty memorable moments.

 

[Lara111]

I can give you many examples. I'll give you three.

- A male skater (elite level) who punched a coach (not his coach) and was told "don't do that again" and nothing else. At the same rink, any female skaters who "talked back" to a coach or were perceived as lazy, disruptive, etc would be told to leave the session and not come back to the rink for a week, at minimum.

- A male ice dancer (low level competitive) who didn't want to do skating but had very wealthy parents that insisted he stay in the sport. He went through a series of partners, and every time a partnership broke up, it was always the girl's "fault". In training sessions, if there was a mistake, it was always the girl's "fault" and he would yell at her. Of all the partners he went through, only one partnership ended because the girl's parents refused to let their daughter skate with him any longer. Every other mom & dad let their daughter skate with this guy, some even telling their daughter that she should "stick it out", because they believed his stories about his previous partners not being "good enough" for him. Or they thought, those other girls couldn't handle him, but our daughter is different. He was a terrible skater in addition to being abusive BTW.

- A female skater (national level) who tried out for pairs with a male skater (national level) and then moved across the country to skate pairs with him, only to discover that his previous partner had left because he was so abusive to her. No one told her that before she agreed to skate with him. He cursed at her in practice whenever she did something "wrong", which was often because she was new to skating pairs and was learning. None of the coaches they were working with said anything or asked him to change his behaviour. The breaking point for her was when she landed a SBS jump "wrong" and he yelled at her and kicked her. Again, none of the coaches who witnessed this said or did anything. She quit the next day and moved back home.

And if you're thinking these must be pretty terrible rinks or clubs, all of them have produced national level competitors, and two have produced World and Olympics competitors.

I have had a very different experience. It's all relative. I've never heard of anything like what you're mentioning above. I'm sure it happens, but I have never seen it myself.

 

[Lara111]

No. Women are equal partners. And you don’t know who Morgan Matthews is? Matthews and Zavozin are the only ones who beat Virtue and Moir at Junior Worlds. They were supposed to be V/M's main rivals, not D/W.

I did not say women are not equal. Each person in a partnership has their role. Each role is important.

 

[Vagabond]

her son was an ice dancer iirc

Are you trying to make her look worse than she already does?

 

[jackson]

Are you trying to make her look worse than she already does?

Why are you picking on her - She was sharing her POV! Not nice

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Why are you picking on her - She was sharing her POV! Not nice

Being sexist isn't a POV we need to respect.

 

[Rukia]

Being sexist isn't a POV we need to respect.

it's not even technically correct from an ice dance pov lol there is no leading in a pattern dance the pattern is set

 

[nylynnr]

I believe the discussion is about partnered skating in general - there are often significant differences in jump technique as well as strengths and weaknesses in spin positions that would require adjustments on the part of one pairs skater or the other. It seems to me like the women in the partnership are basically told to make the adjustments & change their technique rather than requiring compromise between both partners.

I think it also depends on the experience level of the partners. In current U.S. partnerships, for example, Cam and Zingas, to name just two, have significantly less pair and ice dance experience than their respective partners, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are developing technique to match O'Shea and Kolesnik.

 

[her grace]

it's not even technically correct from an ice dance pov lol there is no leading in a pattern dance the pattern is set

I mean, go watch Junior dance, the partners switch steps in pattern 2 (the guy’s doing the gal’s steps, quelle horreur).

 

[MacMadame]

I believe the discussion is about partnered skating in general - there are often significant differences in jump technique as well as strengths and weaknesses in spin positions that would require adjustments on the part of one pairs skater or the other. It seems to me like the women in the partnership are basically told to make the adjustments & change their technique rather than requiring compromise between both partners.

And then we dunk on the women for "not being able to jump."

Male skaters also get a lot more leeway in their behavior. As in coaches, officials, club board members, and even parents will tolerate or excuse behavior from a male skater that would get a female skaters suspended or even kicked out of a club or training session.

I could give a million examples of this. Including from some skaters that other people have mentioned as being "one of the good ones".

The guy doesn't even have to be an abuser to benefit. I know of one male ice dancer who went from partner to partner because he was immature and drove his partners crazy. But he kept getting new partners while the partners who finally had enough of him had trouble getting a new partner.

it's not even technically correct from an ice dance pov lol there is no leading in a pattern dance the pattern is set

Also, in ballroom dance, both partners make adjustments to technique during training and even during a competition a good team will adjust to each other. If the gal is just supposed to follow the guy, they aren't going to score well. Both partners have to be aware of each other and work well together.

 

[overedge]

I have had a very different experience. It's all relative. I've never heard of anything like what you're mentioning above. I'm sure it happens, but I have never seen it myself.

Anyone who has been in or around skating for any length of time has seen something like this, even if they don't recognize it as such. And it's not just explicit verbal or physical abuse - it's little things, like saying "oh, boys will be boys" when male skaters comment on female skaters' weight, breasts, looks, etc. I'm pretty sure the reaction would be very different if female skaters were commenting on something like the size of a male skater's junk.

 

[IHH0628]

Men often get a lot of benefits. We'll pay you if you skate with our daughter! I'll pay your rent! Buy you a car! Pay for all fees!

I have heard that one often.

Or simple over the top adulation.