Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Haven't watched it yet but The Future of Figure Skating has an episode with Amelia Cline and Abby Spadafora of Canadian Gymnasts for Change on stopping abuse in sports.

 

[skatingguy]

It came out just before Worlds started so I haven't finished listening to it, but the information that I've heard so far does not leave much hope that either the government, or that sports governing body's are really intent on doing anything to address the issues, but I think we knew that already.

 

[cholla]

Considering that IAM has supported him throughout (some coaches more openly than others - liking social media posts) and continued to let him train there, I'm not as optimistic about this possibility as others. I think IAM would keep him in some role.

If I'm not mistaken, the only time Dubreuil showed up in the K&C was with FB/S. To me that's more than support, it was like making a statement. That doesn't bode well for the females' situation at IAM. I'm both enraged and saddened. I'm certain FB/S will be hired as coaches by IAM in the future. Why wouldn't that be when they are being shown so much support? It was the plan before the allegations came out, and as nothing has changed since that, I don't see why they'd bother to change the plan now. Like pat c, I think they will quietly retire in the coming weeks or months, without making an announcement to avoid new waves, and we will see Sørensen listed as a coach or choreographer in some IAM skaters' ISU biographies as soon as next season. Considering the high opinion he has of himself, I doubt coaching children or lower ranks dancers would be enough for him (which is a good thing for said skaters). He'll want to work mainly with the elite so we'll see him in the K&C. The one keeping a low profile will be Laurence who is more into teaching physical preparation than dancing. I hope I'm wrong but I'd still bet a lot of money that's how things will go.

 

[pat c]

Question - are MFD and LFB good friends? Is there a bond? So could the show of support in the k&c be for LFB and not Sorensen? Just wondering.

I don't think IAMS will quite match ever the golden age they had when they had V&M, H&D, etc etc. But you know that old saw, it's easier to lose a reputation. Hiring NK would be a bad business decision. But this is id.

 

[Wyliefan]

There seemed to be a bond, in that little bit of the IAM docu-series that I saw.

 

[skategal]

Question - are MFD and LFB good friends? Is there a bond?

Yes. There is a huge bond with Nik and Lolo and MFD.

Nik was MFD’s first international student and they had Lolo picked out for him as soon as he arrived (although he went against their wishes and chose to skate with Vanessa Crone at first.)

 

[emilieh]

If I'm not mistaken, the only time Dubreuil showed up in the K&C was with FB/S. To me that's more than support, it was like making a statement.

I don't mean this as a comment on the entire situation, but she was in the k&c for quite a few teams, they are always strategic about alternating. I remember seeing the animal print blazer quite a few times. I'm quite sure she was there for Lajoie & Lagha, since I noticed the matching animal prints. And she and Haguenauer are usually with Fear & Gibson. I feel like I remember her with Lim & Quan too, and maybe Reed.

 

[Sini05]

It came out just before Worlds started so I haven't finished listening to it, but the information that I've heard so far does not leave much hope that either the government, or that sports governing body's are really intent on doing anything to address the issues, but I think we knew that already.

Skate Canada's safe sport is confidential, even if the complainant has been told the person reported abused, harassed, bullied etc.. the complainant does not know the penalty of the abuser, it is held confidential. And the complainant still needs to maintain their confidentiality agreement and not speak of what they reported or of the outcome, the sanctions remain private and confidential, so the next club can hire them not knowing the past. So you are correct in saying there is not much hope in the government or sports governing body's doing anything to address issues.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Skate Canada's safe sport is confidential, even if the complainant has been told the person reported abused, harassed, bullied etc.. the complainant does not know the penalty of the abuser, it is held confidential. And the complainant still needs to maintain their confidentiality agreement and not speak of what they reported or of the outcome, the sanctions remain private and confidential, so the next club can hire them not knowing the past. So you are correct in saying there is not much hope in the government or sports governing body's doing anything to address issues.

The women involved with Gymnasts for Change (some of whom are lawyers) seem pretty adamant that OSIC is a broken system.

 

[skatingguy]

The women involved with Gymnasts for Change (some of whom are lawyers) seem pretty adamant that OSIC is a broken system.

I think this is a false notion - the system is functioning exactly as it was designed to do - it is designed to silence victims, and protect the sporting organizations.

 

[Trillian]

Question - are MFD and LFB good friends? Is there a bond? So could the show of support in the k&c be for LFB and not Sorensen? Just wondering.

After at least one of the programs, she was sitting next to Sorensen and holding his hand in a way that seemed like a very public show of support to me. So personally, I do think she made it pretty clear with her body language that she’s in his corner specifically. Which … is what it is, I guess.

 

[cholla]

I don't mean this as a comment on the entire situation, but she was in the k&c for quite a few teams, they are always strategic about alternating. I remember seeing the animal print blazer quite a few times. I'm quite sure she was there for Lajoie & Lagha, since I noticed the matching animal prints. And she and Haguenauer are usually with Fear & Gibson. I feel like I remember her with Lim & Quan too, and maybe Reed.

Thank you. I didn't pay that much attention when I was on site because I was working while watching the competition.

 

[skatfan]

After at least one of the programs, she was sitting next to Sorensen and holding his hand in a way that seemed like a very public show of support to me. So personally, I do think she made it pretty clear with her body language that she’s in his corner specifically. Which … is what it is, I guess.

It was the FD. Which is odd, because for the RD, it was two guys- I'm thinking Patrice and Romain, and they all four sat very stiffly eyes straight ahead and no interaction. Now, the RD hasn't gone well, but still. The FD demonstration in the Kiss n Cry was so opposite with Patrice and MF going full body contact that I wondered if they got feedback on what had happened before.

 

[skategal]

It was the FD. Which is odd, because for the RD, it was two guys- I'm thinking Patrice and Romain, and they all four sat very stiffly eyes straight ahead and no interaction. Now, the RD hasn't gone well, but still. The FD demonstration in the Kiss n Cry was so opposite with Patrice and MF going full body contact that I wondered if they got feedback on what had happened before.

Maybe it was the last time FB/S we’re competing ever and they wanted to end their coaching relationship on a good note?

I have no idea.

I’ve been giving IAM a bit of leeway this season as they must have a contract in place to provide coaching services to Nik and Lolo through the end of the season which would be difficult to dissolve.

But what happens next will really tell the story of how IAM feels about it all.

I don’t have high expectations but I am interested to see how things go from here.

 

[once_upon]

Question - are MFD and LFB good friends? Is there a bond? So could the show of support in the k&c be for LFB and not Sorensen? Just wondering.

I don't think IAMS will quite match ever the golden age they had when they had V&M, H&D, etc etc. But you know that old saw, it's easier to lose a reputation. Hiring NK would be a bad business decision. But this is id.

Maybe but she was cozy on Nik side of knc. My respect plummeted when I saw that

 

[marbri]

I really struggle with how quick some of you are condemning MF, IAM and Laurence in all this.

I don't think it's realistic or logical to expect what you expect from them in this time frame.

And I, like many people here I am sure, say that as a victim of sexual assault.

Life isn't black and white. People process things in their own way in their own time.

 

[pat c]

Maybe it was the last time FB/S we’re competing ever and they wanted to end their coaching relationship on a good note?

I have no idea.

I’ve been giving IAM a bit of leeway this season as they must have a contract in place to provide coaching services to Nik and Lolo through the end of the season which would be difficult to dissolve.

But what happens next will really tell the story of how IAM feels about it all.

I don’t have high expectations but I am interested to see how things go from here.

My perception is that IAMS has tried to encourage respect and collaboration in their skating school/business rather than adversarial. D&L competed when id was very adversarial, competitive, and bitchy for lack of a better word. We know the skaters at IAMS have gotten along as they're all going to each others weddings, etc. That is admirable and healthy for the skaters on a day to day basis. They might be feeling that as they encourage a friendlier type of training, that they try and support the skaters, even when it might be at odds with what they believe in. (shrug) I'm guessing.

Maybe but she was cozy on Nik side of knc. My respect plummeted when I saw that

I understand. I saw A&P mow down a Chinese ice dance team at a SC practise in Mississauga 2001? Totally changed how I viewed them.

 

[Habs]

I really struggle with how quick some of you are condemning MF, IAM and Laurence in all this.

I don't think it's realistic or logical to expect what you expect from them in this time frame.

And I, like many people here I am sure, say that as a victim of sexual assault.

Life isn't black and white. People process things in their own way in their own time.

I’ve been trying to figure out how to articulate how I feel about the IAM situation. You said it better than I could have. Agree with this completely.

 

[once_upon]

One one, you don't need both M-F and P snuggled up to you. M-F doesn't need to be putting her arm around him. If both needed to be there there could be space between M-F and Nik.

How many jumped to condemn John Z and his camp.

 

[AYS]

One one, you don't need both M-F and P snuggled up to you. M-F doesn't need to be putting her arm around him. If both needed to be there there could be space between M-F and Nik.

How many jumped to condemn John Z and his camp.

Not to excuse MFD actions or defend them, but it's worth pointing out that John Z was a very active part of the misconduct in that case, trying to cover up the situation and intimidate the complainant to prevent her from coming forward. I guess you could say it's along the spectrum but it's a different scenario and JZ was definitely worthy of condemnation.

 

[marbri]

One one, you don't need both M-F and P snuggled up to you. M-F doesn't need to be putting her arm around him. If both needed to be there there could be space between M-F and Nik.

How many jumped to condemn John Z and his camp.

I don't know. I'm fairly confident that I am consistent in my views on these types of cases.

I suppose I could also ask how many people condemning MF; IAM and Laurence did the same to Gracie Gold who apparently, in her book, shared two stories: about being a victim of sexual assault and the other about her struggle to reconcile her feelings and relationship to a man she knew as a supportive friend with the man other women knew as their perpetrator? I didn't read her book but I can understand her predicament and conflicting emotions. And I think that is more relevant to what I wrote.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread. It took me a while to actually post what I did for a few reasons and yesterday finally felt comfortable to do that. I stand by it.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I don't know. I'm fairly confident that I am consistent in my views on these types of cases.

I suppose I could also ask how many people condemning MF; IAM and Laurence did the same to Gracie Gold who apparently, in her book, shared two stories: about being a victim of sexual assault and the other about her struggle to reconcile her feelings and relationship to a man she knew as a supportive friend with the man other women knew as their perpetrator? I didn't read her book but I can understand her predicament and conflicting emotions. And I think that is more relevant to what I wrote.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread. It took me a while to actually post what I did for a few reasons and yesterday finally felt comfortable to do that. I stand by it.

I really appreciated what Gracie wrote in her book. People are complicated and abusers can also be people who are otherwise wonderful friends, caring confidantes and upstanding citizens. I've seen this myself in my own life. I do think we need better models of restorative justice when it comes to certain kinds abuse in sports, but we're a very long way from when we can't even get the reporting and complaint systems to work decently.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Gold’s case is quite different because she wrote about having conflicting feelings, didn’t conclude that because she knew a different part of him that he couldn’t have harmed someone else, and she didn’t side against his victims.

I think that is different from public shows of affection and support at an international competition for an accused rapist. And it’s certainly different if she then hires him.

 

[Private Citizen]

I agree that the situation with Zimmerman is different, in that he was found to have covered up misconduct. Another important difference is that there has been a conclusive finding in that case.

If someone you knew well for years was accused of sexual assault in a "he said - she said" situation without other evidence and without due process or any finding of fact, would you abandon them? At the risk of "going there," the John Coughlin saga shows us that there needs to be a support system for the accused as well. That outcome was tragic and resulted in justice for no one.

As I've said previously, I think Soerensen is probably guilty. But until he's proven guilty or a lot more evidence emerges, I am not going to condemn Dubreuil.

 

[once_upon]

You asked me what I thought she could have done. I gave my opinion.

I did not read Gracie's book. I dont know. I don't know how I felt with John Coughlin or John Zimmerman as both reports occurred after the coaching actions at an event.

 

[nylynnr]

I agree that the situation with Zimmerman is different, in that he was found to have covered up misconduct. Another important difference is that there has been a conclusive finding in that case.

Just in the interest of complete information, John Zimmerman was originally suspended for two years. He appealed, the case went to mediation, and he won his appeal and was removed from the U.S. Center for SafeSport database and US Figure Skating’s SafeSport list.

 

[skatingguy]

As I've said previously, I think Soerensen is probably guilty. But until he's proven guilty or a lot more evidence emerges, I am not going to condemn Dubreuil.

Based on the current process in place in Canada we have all the information that we are going to have about the accusations against Sorensen.

 

[Private Citizen]

Based on the current process in place in Canada we have all the information that we are going to have about the accusations against Sorensen.

The accuser could always choose to speak publicly.

I for one am disinclined to blindly trust the outcome of a private accusation and entirely private process, with no disclosure of information or ability for the accused to publicly respond.

I respect the victim’s right to privacy. They need to respect my and others’ right to form our own opinions based on the evidence (or lack thereof) made available to us. I do not trust secret processes, period. Some level of disclosure will be needed to sway me. YMMV.

 

[skatingguy]

The accuser could always choose to speak publicly.

I for one am disinclined to blindly trust the outcome of a private accusation and entirely private process, with no disclosure of information or ability for the accused to publicly respond.

I respect the victim’s right to privacy. They need to respect my and others’ right to form our own opinions based on the evidence (or lack thereof) made available to us. I do not trust secret processes, period.

The current system in Canada requires that everyone keep all information confidential, but because the accuser is an American she may be able to say more than others about the allegations, process, and any sanctions imposed on Sorensen. If she did speak openly the Office of the Sport Integrity Commission could impose sanctions, but I don't know that they could enforce them because they don't have jurisdiction over her involvement in sports in the US.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

The current system in Canada requires that everyone keep all information confidential, but because the accuser is an American she may be able to say more than others about the allegations, process, and any sanctions imposed on Sorensen. If she did speak openly the Office of the Sport Integrity Commission could impose sanctions, but I don't know that they could enforce them because they don't have jurisdiction over her involvement in sports in the US.

There's a growing movement of activists who believe that suing in civil court is the only way for SA survivors to get justice because the legal threshold for evidence is much lower. However, civil suits are costly and problematic in other ways. And the Canadian OSIC's muzzling system does not seems to serve anyone other than the sport federations.