Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

I don't see what Lorrie Parker's allegedly questionable judging calls have to do with her daughter defending Coughlin, but the rest of the information is indeed disturbing.
Agree, although perhaps it added to the point that it doesn’t seem to matter what you do if you are that deeply connected. Favoritism.

Gislason is Sr Manager of High Performance Development (working with athletes?), Gaff is Sr Mgr High Performance Operations (more administrative?). Kyoko Ina is Director of High Performance - wow, someone who has actually demonstrated high performance! Kyoko must be second in command to Justin Dillon (Senior Director High Performance).
 
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There was a description of Gislason's job in the Gov Council docs. It sounded very administrative....managing the logistics of the training camps and then surveying participants afterward for process improvement. It didn't sound like the position involved evaluating athlete performance but she will obviously have plenty of contact with athletes and coaches at the camps.
 
From Ashley Wagner:

"I’m just going to throw this out here. A coach who had an inappropriate sexual relationship with a 16 year old just won an award for Developmental Coach of the Year. Some people are not redeemable, and yet we continue to celebrate them. It’s the CULTURE."


She links to this article about Chris Pottenger: https://t.co/5pZhhqxLD6

I was wondering about this. I recognized his name and thought there were some negative events connected with him in the past.
 
From Ashley Wagner:

"I’m just going to throw this out here. A coach who had an inappropriate sexual relationship with a 16 year old just won an award for Developmental Coach of the Year. Some people are not redeemable, and yet we continue to celebrate them. It’s the CULTURE."


She links to this article about Chris Pottenger: https://t.co/5pZhhqxLD6
I get that Ashley wants to become the voice of reason when many don't do anything about it, but we've circled this story before. The law is 16 or 17 year olds can legally consent to the relationship-- aside from what anyone personally feels about that, it's the law. Pottenger was also not his coach and was never involved in said skaters' training, according to the article (and ETA- someone in the comments said that they weren't even in the same ice rink). Some may say there's an influence of power if they are at the same rink, but none of us are eyewitness to any of that playing out or benefitting/hindering said skater.

I found this on a CT law website:
The age of consent to engage sexual intercourse in the state of Connecticut is sixteen years old. This means that any person who is sixteen years or older can consent to sexual intercourse with someone sixteen years or older. Anyone eighteen years or older may not have sexual intercourse with a person who is below the age of consent, meaning someone who is younger than sixteen-years-old. Otherwise a person is committing what is known as “statutory rape.” That means they are engaging in sexual intercourse with someone who is not legally old enough to be able to consent to sex. Statutory rape is governed by Connecticut General Statutes § § 53a-70 and 53a-71, also known as sexual assault in the first degree and sexual assault in the second degree.

Connecticut also allows for persons age thirteen to fifteen to consent to sexual intercourse with another person who is no more than three years older than their current age. An example can be a thirteen-year-old legally consenting to sexual intercourse with a fifteen-year-old. A person who does not abide by these age limits would be committing sexual assault in the second degree.

If a person is under the age of thirteen then they can legally consent to sex with a person who is no more than two years older than their current age. An example of this is an eleven-year-old legally consenting to sexual intercourse with a thirteen-year-old. A person who does not abide by these age limits would be committing either sexual assault in the first degree or sexual assault in the second degree.

ETA- later in the comments, Ashley said the following:
My family was the one who reported him, so yes, I do know the real story, and I do know what happened to the skater. Time doesn’t just make these things okay. I understand that you’re on the coaching team that won this award, but these actions still aren’t ok from any coach.
I might be confusing stories but I thought that I read (a long time ago) that the family was aware of the relationship and everything was consensual (again, regardless of how one uses their own views). Maybe it was a different situation.
 
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From Ashley Wagner:

"I’m just going to throw this out here. A coach who had an inappropriate sexual relationship with a 16 year old just won an award for Developmental Coach of the Year. Some people are not redeemable, and yet we continue to celebrate them. It’s the CULTURE."


She links to this article about Chris Pottenger: https://t.co/5pZhhqxLD6

I am in Ashley’s corner completely when it comes to calling out the problematic culture in skating. But what makes this one trickier is that she’s talking about an individual who has already faced disciplinary consequences for what happened and is not (to my knowledge) currently under any kind of professional sanction. So in order to argue that Pottenger shouldn’t have been eligible for this award, you have to base that on one of two things:

A) People who have been disciplined in the past shouldn’t be eligible for awards ever again, even if they have been deemed eligible to continue coaching without restriction,
Or,
B) The punishment wasn’t severe enough.

IMO, A is a potentially problematic argument to make from a legal perspective, and B is probably a matter of opinion in this particular case but is part of a much larger conversation about appropriate penalties in general. I believe Ashley’s heart is in the right place and I’m not particularly a Pottenger fan. But in this particular case, the relationship is so within the bounds of what I know was considered socially acceptable in the skating world in that era that I don’t find it particularly valuable to focus on one individual. There are plenty of other coaches now who dated teenagers when they were in their 20s, and IMO we’d be better off discussing that as a problematic social norm than calling out specific individuals who grew up within that culture for participating in it.

ETA: Ashley’s comment about her family reporting this incident makes it seem likely this is coming from a more personal place and she knows more than most of us here. And again, I don’t even really blame her for being upset. I just think this is one of those situations where technically there have been consequences already, so it’s important to be clear about what specific change is being advocated here.
 
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Inappropriate isn't the same thing as illegal, which is the distinction that Ashley is drawing IMO.

Also, giving an award is a discretionary choice. It's not the same as, say, refusing to give someone a coaching certification that they need to get a job. In this particular situation, with the optics of what else is going on with USFS and athlete complaints about abuse, IMO giving an award to a coach who admitted to having a relationship with a skater doesn't send a positive message.
 
Yeah, Ashley never said this was illegal, she just said it was a good example of inappropriate and potentially abusive behavior being tolerated and accepted in the culture.

Which I would argue this is a great example of. We wouldn't be excusing a teacher for having a sexual relationship with a 16-year-old just because 16 was the age of consent and the student wasn't in their class, would we? No, that teacher would be fired and have trouble getting work - at the very least they probably wouldn't be getting an award. So why should we excuse a coach for the same behavior? Why should we give them an award?
 
Yeah, Ashley never said this was illegal, she just said it was a good example of inappropriate and potentially abusive behavior being tolerated and accepted in the culture.

Which I would argue this is a great example of. We wouldn't be excusing a teacher for having a sexual relationship with a 16-year-old just because 16 was the age of consent and the student wasn't in their class, would we? No, that teacher would be fired and have trouble getting work - at the very least they probably wouldn't be getting an award. So why should we excuse a coach for the same behavior? Why should we give them an award?
At that time, when he was grooming the 16 year old, he was allegedly a technical specialist if i recall correctly at the national level? making this behavior completely unacceptable and extremely problematic. He may have still been in college, but there were many young national technical specialists in pairs and ice dancing during that time.
 
Compare it to some of the church abuse scandals that have been making news. Typically, a disgraced pastor will resign, go off somewhere for a while to think things over (or at least make a show of thinking things over), then you'll hear about him pastoring a church somewhere else. A lot of us think that's not a good idea. If you abused your power in a leadership role, you should take a job that won't tempt you do the same thing all over again.
 
A lot of us think that's not a good idea. If you abused your power in a leadership role, you should take a job that won't tempt you do the same thing all over again.

This is where I think the conversation we should really be having is about appropriate consequences. As a general philosophy, I think someone who has been given an appropriate consequence for their behavior and fulfilled the terms of that punishment should have the right to a fresh start. But there’s plenty of room to discuss whether the consequences are appropriate.

I’m not weighing in on Pottenger in particular, but “should this person be winning awards?” feels to me like the wrong way to frame the conversation. If there’s that much question about someone’s integrity in a position of power, we should be asking whether they should be coaching at all. Either we trust them to behave appropriately in a position of power, or we don’t. If there are concerns serious enough that people don’t think someone should win PSA awards, why would we be comfortable with that person being a PSA member at all?
 
There's definitely an argument about whether a coach who's had a relationship with a skater should be coaching at all. I don't think they should, but clearly the PSA has a different opinion on this.

But choosing to give someone an award is a different equation. Not everyone who's a PSA member gets an award - I assume there are some basic requirements to be eligible, like being a current member and not having any disciplinary actions against you (at least, I hope that's one of the criteria). But holding someone up as an example of an outstanding coach, when that person has admitted to having a relationship with a skater - I think a degree of discretion should be exercised there, even if the person meets all the other criteria to receive that award.

ETA: and to me, giving the person the ability to move on means giving them the ability to work in their occupation and profession. Not giving them an award isn't going to take away their ability to work.
 
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This is where I think the conversation we should really be having is about appropriate consequences. As a general philosophy, I think someone who has been given an appropriate consequence for their behavior and fulfilled the terms of that punishment should have the right to a fresh start. But there’s plenty of room to discuss whether the consequences are appropriate.
Yes, but I think there's also an important discussion to be had about what the fresh start should look like.
 
I think there's a discussion to be had about consequences, but it also depends on the details of this case. As I said, this would be a career ender for a teacher regardless of the details. This could be a career ender or lead to troubles with licensure in many careers - and in that sense I think it would be fair for this to mean an end to his career coaching kids. However, if the relationship was out in the open and entirely consensual (though that can be debated on the power gradient), it could be argued he only deserves monitoring/scrutiny when dealing with kids.

But to Ashley's point it shows a problem with skating culture. Even if this didn't end up being a career-ender in other fields, the person wouldn't be given any awards by the people aware of their transgression(s) - and if they were the awards would would heavily criticized by outsiders and/or insiders. Thus far, Ashley is the only one in skating criticizing this move by the PSA - though more may talk after her tweet.

Other than the suspension, his career is going well with seemingly no consequences whatsoever. He's still judging at major competitions and coaching. He even runs a skating academy named after himself (implying no supervision - and that his name has no shame in skating as it should if you've been suspended). He can travel internationally with his students and has pictures of him hugging them. There's even a post on his instagram of his students and him at someone's house for a party - something safesport discourages heavily. All of that screams that his past behavior means nothing to USFS no matter how bad it was.
 
I think there's a discussion to be had about consequences, but it also depends on the details of this case. As I said, this would be a career ender for a teacher regardless of the details. This could be a career ender or lead to troubles with licensure in many careers - and in that sense I think it would be fair for this to mean an end to his career coaching kids. However, if the relationship was out in the open and entirely consensual (though that can be debated on the power gradient), it could be argued he only deserves monitoring/scrutiny when dealing with kids.

But to Ashley's point it shows a problem with skating culture. Even if this didn't end up being a career-ender in other fields, the person wouldn't be given any awards by the people aware of their transgression(s) - and if they were the awards would would heavily criticized by outsiders and/or insiders. Thus far, Ashley is the only one in skating criticizing this move by the PSA - though more may talk after her tweet.

Other than the suspension, his career is going well with seemingly no consequences whatsoever. He's still judging at major competitions and coaching. He even runs a skating academy named after himself (implying no supervision - and that his name has no shame in skating as it should if you've been suspended). He can travel internationally with his students and has pictures of him hugging them. There's even a post on his instagram of his students and him at someone's house for a party - something safesport discourages heavily. All of that screams that his past behavior means nothing to USFS no matter how bad it was.
This! Agreed, this is horrible. I think USFS needs to be held accountable and this man who was mid to late 20s still in college, and trying to act like this was a "peer to peer" relationship like the late John Coughlin was described as having. It's very scary he's receiving awards after all the abuse these young skaters have encountered. I'm sorry, but I think there needs to be some accountability shared by the adults involved in these decisions. It also seems like who would accept an award and name an academy after themselves knowing what they did?
 
This! Agreed, this is horrible. I think USFS needs to be held accountable and this man who was mid to late 20s still in college, and trying to act like this was a "peer to peer" relationship like the late John Coughlin was described as having. It's very scary he's receiving awards after all the abuse these young skaters have encountered. I'm sorry, but I think there needs to be some accountability shared by the adults involved in these decisions. It also seems like who would accept an award and name an academy after themselves knowing what they did?
Just to be clear, there weren't skaters. It was one skater.

That said, I never got the impression that Pottinger understood what he did was wrong based on his public statements. Which is another issue entirely.
 
Some of what has been brought up in this thread reminds me of a New York Times article I just read about a then-23-year-old female grad student who had a decade-long relationship with her professor.

She was of legal age (23 years old), the professor argued it was consensual, it lasted ten years, and, in Japan, consent through coercion or grooming while recognizing power imbalances is not a major issue because the laws reflect an attitude that sex acts are only assault if there’s violence involved with the requirement that the victim fight back be met. Furthermore, universities in Japan don’t tend to prohibit sexual relationships between professors and students.

So everything was legal and the seemingly pervasive attitude regarding sexual relationships would make all of the above sound acceptable and above board. But read her take on how she came to terms with what happened to her as she grew older, the pressures she felt with the expectation she had to behave in Japan’s ultra appeasing attitudes towards higher up on the hierarchy, not making a fuss, etc.

She said that her behavior was a sign of indoctrination, and that she was afraid to be “rude” to her supervisor, who had authority over her future career.
When she would try to end the relationship, she said in court filings, Mr. Hayashi would accuse her of being “paranoid” or tell her she would never be able to date anyone else. She said Mr. Hayashi told her: “You can sue me for sexual harassment if you wanted to. But you won’t because you’re not that kind of girl.”
Btw, she lost her sexual harassment lawsuit (though she knew it was a longshot); and ended up being successfully sued by the professor’s wife for nearly $20,000 for adultery and causing mental distress under Japan’s legal code. The professor paid about half of that for his comparative fault.

She’s now dealing with PTSD in therapy, working through feelings of self-blame, and hasn’t been well enough to work full time as she grapples with her ten-year long “consensual” relationship.
 
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Tennis great Pam Shriver also went public last year about an inappropriate relationship she had with her coach decades ago. I hear her interview in The Tennis Podcast where she explains quite well her mindset then and now and how she would've talked about the relationship being perfectly consensual then. The difference in age was greater and her was married, but the coach-pupil relationship is complex and imbalanced even when you're paying the coach's salary. And the tennis scene can be quite toxic as well.

https://www.si.com/tennis/2022/04/2...appropriate-relationship-with-coach-don-candy

She's quite implicated now in sharing her story and opening eyes to the phenomenon but she says progress is glacial.
 
Just to be clear, there weren't skaters. It was one skater.

That said, I never got the impression that Pottinger understood what he did was wrong based on his public statements. Which is another issue entirely.
Agreed, one skater that we know about. ONE 16 year old skater, it too many. Children must be protected at all costs from anyone over 18 ESPECIALLY considering this allegation was made when he was an official.
 
Tennis great Pam Shriver also went public last year about an inappropriate relationship she had with her coach decades ago. I hear her interview in The Tennis Podcast where she explains quite well her mindset then and now and how she would've talked about the relationship being perfectly consensual then. The difference in age was greater and her was married, but the coach-pupil relationship is complex and imbalanced even when you're paying the coach's salary. And the tennis scene can be quite toxic as well.

https://www.si.com/tennis/2022/04/2...appropriate-relationship-with-coach-don-candy

She's quite implicated now in sharing her story and opening eyes to the phenomenon but she says progress is glacial.
Baltimore-born Pam Shriver definitely is one of the greatest athletes that the state of Maryland ever produced. At one point in time she had a home not too far away from where I grew up on Maryland's Eastern Shore. I was surprised the article didn't mention her decade-long marriage to a James Bond actor 23 years her senior, George Lazenby (of On Her Majesty's Secret Service fame).

In my limited experiences with the tennis scene, I am not surprised it is ripe with the same risks of inappropriate and/or abusive relationships as figure skating, including the imbalanced power dynamics of a student/coach relationship.
 
I was surprised the article didn't mention her decade-long marriage to a James Bond actor 23 years her senior, George Lazenby (of On Her Majesty's Secret Service fame).
The word "obskurity" would be more appropriate here. :p
 
In my limited experiences with the tennis scene, I am not surprised it is ripe with the same risks of inappropriate and/or abusive relationships as figure skating, including the imbalanced power dynamics of a student/coach relationship.
Tell me about it. When my best friend's first marriage failed, she got together with her tennis coach 18 years her senior.
All was well until she had their child and he realized (once again) that all he loves is his job. He messed up his first marriage and family because of the same reason.
Even before my friend finally broke up with that asshole, she was pretty much a single mom all those years because instead of spending time with his new family, he'd always be at the tennis court. I think his current gf is also one of his pupils, also much younger.
 
It’s like the full professor leaving age-appropriate wife for grad student: happens so frequently it’s a cliche.
It doesn't really happen that frequently. Usually, he doesn't leave but just dates students serially since after 4-5 years, they move one.
 
Actually it does. Count in undergraduate students as well as graduate students and it's even more frequent.
That they get married?? Professor-student relationships? yes. Leading to the professor marrying the student? No.
 
That they get married?? Professor-student relationships? yes. Leading to the professor marrying the student? No.
  • My mother also used to be my dad's student at the conservatory first...but in their case it worked out.
  • A friend of mine used to live together with her former teacher for years until he left her for a colleague of his closer to his own age. (And it turns out, they both work at my school and have no idea I know about all of this.)
  • One of my favorite teachers at school left his first wife for a student of his whom he also married only to leave wife no. 2 for another even younger woman (a pedagogics student IIRC) who is now wife no. 3 if they are still married. Dude's a great teacher and very good at his craft and I always got along well with him, but I wouldn't want to be close to him :lol:.
 
My mother met my father in college when he was a visiting professor and she was a student He specifically said he was teaching at the college (a private religious school) to find a wife as he felt he was ready to settle down with a family. My mother didn't have any classes with him when they started dating. I always thought it was funny that he ended up with my mother who didn't have a religious bone in her body. But she was cute, funny, and vivacious so I guess he was willing to overlook her religious failings. :p
 

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