Just call me Harry. (Everything Harry & Meghan)

[canbelto]

I am not so such the power imbalance matters much in the royal family. Elizabeth and Margaret were very close and regardless of different life choices, Elizabeth's love and concern for Margaret never waivered. I recall how very bereft Elizabeth was at that funeral. Often Lady Sarah Chatto is mentioned as to her close relationship with her aunt, the Queen. William, Harry and Eugenie have always been pals and had seemed to offer support to each other. Princess Ann's children have never had royal titles and I suspect they are not bowing to George and Charlotte at horse shows. How can anyone claim a family (grandmother) views personal relationships of less importance than her business? These kind of comments break my heart.

As they say on the Crown though the Crown always wins. And when somebody EMBODIES the Crown, then all personal relationships will have a power imbalance. And as head of the Crown, the monarch cannot consider personal relationships, but rather the good of the Crown.

Right now George is still a little kid but how old will he be before he bullies Charlotte and Louis around and says "you have to because I'm going to be king"? It's probably already happening. If Charles orders servants or his brother Edward around what's Edward going to say, "Who died and made you King of England?" Because guess what, he is King.

How can you have an affectionate relationship with someone you always have to bow/curtsy to and walk two paces behind? It's simply not possible and anyone that thinks it is is naive.

As for the Queen and Margaret if they were close I think it's because of their upbringing -- their father George/Bertie raised them to be close.

I think William and Harry 's estrangement was always going to happen. It's just a shame it happened so irrevocably.

 

[MacMadame]

As they say on the Crown though the Crown always wins. And when somebody EMBODIES the Crown, then all personal relationships will have a power imbalance. And as head of the Crown, the monarch cannot consider personal relationships, but rather the good of the Crown.

You need to get a better source than The Crown for your understanding of the BRF.

Right now George is still a little kid but how old will he be before he bullies Charlotte and Louis around and says "you have to because I'm going to be king"? It's probably already happening. If Charles orders servants or his brother Edward around what's Edward going to say, "Who died and made you King of England?" Because guess what, he is King.

A) Charles is not the King. There is no king, only a queen. He may be King someday but who knows if that will even happen.

B) If George is bullying his siblings by saying he's going to be king someday, do you really think all the adults in the room are saying "yes, that's right!" and that George is telling his mother he doesn't have to listen to her because he's going to be King someday and she is perfectly okay with that? Because I'd be extremely surprised if that was happening.

How can you have an affectionate relationship with someone you always have to bow/curtsy to and walk two paces behind? It's simply not possible and anyone that thinks it is is naive.

No one has to bow/curtsy and walk two paces behind people who might be King/Queen someday. If so, people would have to bow and walk two paces behind Harry since he's in line for the throne and then your whole fantasy of how these people interact with each other behind closed doors falls apart.

No one is walking two paces behind these people today even in public so there is no way they are doing it in private.

As for the Queen and Margaret if they were close I think it's because of their upbringing -- their father George/Bertie raised them to be close.

So that shows that it can be done.

 

[becca]

As they say on the Crown though the Crown always wins. And when somebody EMBODIES the Crown, then all personal relationships will have a power imbalance. And as head of the Crown, the monarch cannot consider personal relationships, but rather the good of the Crown.

Right now George is still a little kid but how old will he be before he bullies Charlotte and Louis around and says "you have to because I'm going to be king"? It's probably already happening. If Charles orders servants or his brother Edward around what's Edward going to say, "Who died and made you King of England?" Because guess what, he is King.

How can you have an affectionate relationship with someone you always have to bow/curtsy to and walk two paces behind? It's simply not possible and anyone that thinks it is is naive.

As for the Queen and Margaret if they were close I think it's because of their upbringing -- their father George/Bertie raised them to be close.

I think William and Harry 's estrangement was always going to happen. It's just a shame it happened so irrevocably.

There is a story that Princess Anne found out guards had to salute so she would purposely walk by to make them do that. Prince Phillip found out and reprimanded her.

No one wants Prince George to be raised to be an entitled brat. Which is why he isn’t bowed to. The few times we see him he is a well behaved child.

Prince William said they hadn’t told him his future royal role.

Furthermore Queen Elizabeth is not a dictator she does not throw people in the tower. She lives in luxury yes but also a life of public service.

She carries out duties for the government. It’s actually a constrained life in a lot of ways which is something Prince Harry and Meghan learned. King Edward did too.

 

[puglover]

I might add that I believe George, Charlotte and Louis have loving and caring parents determined to raise kind and responsible children. Kids can use size, looks, athletic ability, placement in family, academic ability, etc. to gain one-up-man ship on each other. Good parents and child care workers nip it in the bud. "You have to do what I want because I will be king" does not sound like anything William and Kate would ever tolerate.

For the most part, it would seem the adult royals are busy with their own projects. They seem to be together (by choice) at Christmas and special events and fun times. Not unlike most families. Obviously, love of horses and competition are family bonding events with kids running and playing together.

Much has changed in the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth. An institution of over 1,000 years changes slowly and no one monarch can erase the traditions and beliefs of her people but I think Queen Elizabeth has done much to move things forward during her reign. Princess Charlotte will not be passed by Prince Louis: Prince Harry did marry the love of his life, a divorced American bi-racial actress and she was walked down the aisle by the future King of England and, they, as well as other European royalties, are reducing the "royal" title so those not likely to be heir can enjoy a much more normal, productive life. I expect there will be more changes when Charles is King.

 

[canbelto]

Much has changed in the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth. An institution of over 1,000 years changes slowly and no one monarch can erase the traditions and beliefs of her people but I think Queen Elizabeth has done much to move things forward during her reign. Princess Charlotte will not be passed by Prince Louis: Prince Harry did marry the love of his life, a divorced American bi-racial actress and she was walked down the aisle by the future King of England and, they, as well as other European royalties, are reducing the "royal" title so those not likely to be heir can enjoy a much more normal, productive life. I expect there will be more changes when Charles is King.

But Harry found out the hard way that his life has no value according to the Firm. Archie's life has no value either. The refusal to pay for security, wondering about Archie's skin color, cutting them off financially, allowing racist attacks on Meghan, refusing to get Meghan mental help when she was suicidal ... So I'm not sure I'd use Harry and William as an example of how the BRF cares about its spares.

 

[becca]

But Harry found out the hard way that his life has no value according to the Firm. Archie's life has no value either. The refusal to pay for security, wondering about Archie's skin color, cutting them off financially, allowing racist attacks on Meghan, refusing to get Meghan mental help when she was suicidal ... So I'm not sure I'd use Harry and William as an example of how the BRF cares about its spares.

Harry chose to leave the family business and move out of the country. He wasn’t kicked out. We only know one side of the story

 

[starrynight]

I think the Palace actually does a huge amount of PR spinning behind the scenes to try to make its members look good. Writing their speeches, helping choose clothes, giving talking points for events etc. Harry had a really positively received 'people's prince' image crafted for him.

Although a big part of keeping a media image afloat is keeping its subject under control so they don't go off script and blurt out the wrong thing. That is probably where a fair bit of discontentment lies - probably where the 'silenced' bit comes from. (A lot of these advisers are former political campaign workers, who are used to having to control politicians and keep them to the agreed talking points).

But Harry has now chosen independence from that, so it's now solely up to him to manage his PR, income, life choices, book his doctor appointments, care for his wife etc.

But for all the talk about superficial fights over bridesmaids tights etc, the stories that were genuinely mean that have circulated about Harry were the ones teasing him about him failing school exams, failing army exams etc. Now that is something that was unfair, because it does illustrate how difficult it is to be expected to be something special in life just by accident of birth, if you are an average fellow.

 

[canbelto]

I read that they took George hunting to make sure he wouldn't cry. I;m sure they are teaching him to be ice cold because he'll be king one day even if that means he will never have a close bond with his siblings. Crown must win, will win.

I mean think of it this way -- I have a good relationship with my supervisor at work. She makes sure I don't have to deal with a lot of workplace annoyances. But she can't be my FRIEND ever because she's my boss.

I;m also a teacher and they always say teachers can NEVER try to be a student's "friend." You do that, and you lose authority and respect immediately.

 

[puglover]

But Harry found out the hard way that his life has no value according to the Firm. Archie's life has no value either. The refusal to pay for security, wondering about Archie's skin color, cutting them off financially, allowing racist attacks on Meghan, refusing to get Meghan mental help when she was suicidal ... So I'm not sure I'd use Harry and William as an example of how the BRF cares about its spares.

You choose to see it that way. I believe Harry is loved and valued. In fact, the royal family had appointments booked for both Harry and his wife representing the "firm" as you say, and Harry and Meghan did not want to fulfill them. Their security was paid for as long as they were working royals by the UK Government Treasury (the British people as I read it). Should they assume a lesser role, they would not be entitled to 24/7 security. As far as I know, one unspecified member of the royal family made a comment about the potential colour of Archie's skin and we have no idea in what context this was said. We do know there was a very concerted effort to pull down any negative comments in the press so how did they ALLOW these racist attacks? I am really not too sure how much more of a clear message we could have seen than with the Queen, Prince Charles and even Camilla sitting with her and laughing and talking as would any other beloved family member. I would like to understand more about the refusal to get Meghan mental help as it has been very well known that others have gotten it in the past and we see the care Kate has participated in with her brother. Are we then to believe that William and Kate are so cruel that they knew Meghan was suicidal and callously sat back and said "whatever"?

I know we come from very different places. I love the Royal Family and have received much comfort and joy from the Queen throughout my life. I grew up in a British "children shall be seen and not heard" home and so I understand some of their family dynamics.

I ask you this - in the initial statements issued by Harry and Meghan, they seemed to be aiming for a 50/50 or something like that with part/time in England continuing on with royal duties and 1/2 time away. They use terms like "collaborate with Her Majesty The Queen, The Prince of Wales and the Duke of Cambridge ....... If it was so damaging, life threatening horrible why did they not want a clean sweep of it then?

 

[canbelto]

I would like to understand more about the refusal to get Meghan mental help as it has been very well known that others have gotten it in the past and we see the care Kate has participated in with her brother. Are we then to believe that William and Kate are so cruel that they knew Meghan was suicidal and callously sat back and said "whatever"?

I don't believe it's cruelty. But Crown always wins. Chatter that Meghan was seeking mental help while she was heavily pregnant would have been too damaging. They had to make a business decision and the decision was that the PR disaster of Meghan checking into a clinic or hospital would be too much.

This is what I mean by heirs can't be close to spares. Because ultimately the heir CAN'T consider the feelings of the spare. He CAN'T give a shit. He has to always think about the Crown.

 

[MLIS]

The Crown is fiction, not a documentary.

 

[becca]

I don't believe it's cruelty. But Crown always wins. Chatter that Meghan was seeking mental help while she was heavily pregnant would have been too damaging. They had to make a business decision and the decision was that the PR disaster of Meghan checking into a clinic or hospital would be too much.

This is what I mean by heirs can't be close to spares. Because ultimately the heir CAN'T consider the feelings of the spare. He CAN'T give a shit. He has to always think about the Crown.

That’s ridiculous. We don’t know the full story. And plenty of members of the royal family have close relationships. The Queen clearly seems to be very much loved and respected.

Furthermore.it’s not even I believe the Queen or Charles or Williams decision who gets security. The Queen doesn’t make all the decisions.

 

[starrynight]

As an aside, 'The Firm' actually has managed Camilla's PR into making her popular.

Which is quite something given that she was a extremely unpopular outsider and I'm sure a lot of people in the Palace would have rather she had disappeared. It was only Charles' insistence that kept her in the picture.

Which is evidence enough, that these things can be managed. I do wonder if a lot of Charles' advice to Harry was rooted in this experience of bunkering down in the engine room over decades to get Camilla accepted. It was a much bigger challenge for Charles to do that with Camilla. Meghan (certainly before Megxit) was infinity times more popular than Camilla.

 

[puglover]

May I say "the hunt" is a part of English gamesmanship dating back to the 15th century. I would probably also have to go on a mock hunt so as not to cry, with dubious results. I very much doubt their goal is to raise a hard hearted future king, but instead prepare him for a frequent, if not antiquated role he will play in participating in a common pastime. Hunting is a family activity enjoyed by many on both sides of the Atlantic and certainly not reserved for the royal family.

 

[Karen-W]

I don't believe it's cruelty. But Crown always wins. Chatter that Meghan was seeking mental help while she was heavily pregnant would have been too damaging. They had to make a business decision and the decision was that the PR disaster of Meghan checking into a clinic or hospital would be too much.

This is what I mean by heirs can't be close to spares. Because ultimately the heir CAN'T consider the feelings of the spare. He CAN'T give a shit. He has to always think about the Crown.

And the latest chatter, straight out of Harry's mouth in the Apple TV Oprah series is that he DID ask for help for both he and Meghan while she was pregnant, and was met with silence. So, in the first Oprah interview, he said he was too ashamed to ask for help, now two months later he is saying that he did ask for help and did not receive any. So, his story is shifting and I'm not sure we can believe much "chatter" from various Sussex Squad tweeters.

Given that we know Kate was attending family therapy sessions to help her brother, James, with his own battle against depression, at the same time Meghan says she was having suicidal ideations, and not one word of it was leaked to the press or made public until James spoke about it last winter, I have a hard time believing that 1) the "Firm" would have ignored or denied Meghan & Harry requesting any assistance, 2) that it would have been a "PR disaster" - frankly, as adept as the "Firm" is at spinning something very negative (see Camilla, see Harry's drugs, partying and racist comments, see the masterful way the Wessexes have gone from 'joke' to highly-respected & valued senior working royals), they would have been all over this as a way to continue to help promote the mental health campaigns initially undertaken by The Royal Foundation of PW/PH, and 3) that this would have leaked before the Sussexes were in a better place mentally and emotionally. You do realize, you are essentially stating that most of the staff and mental health professionals involved would have risked their jobs and licenses if something like this was leaked to the press, right?

 

[starrynight]

May I say "the hunt" is a part of English gamesmanship dating back to the 15th century. I would probably also have to go on a mock hunt so as not to cry, with dubious results. I very much doubt their goal is to raise a hard hearted future king, but instead prepare him for a frequent, if not antiquated role he will play in participating in a common pastime. Hunting is a family activity enjoyed by many on both sides of the Atlantic and certainly not reserved for the royal family.

I mean, I couldn't go on a hunt. Doubt many people could go into an abattoir either. But food comes from a place. The game people hunt from the wild is a lot more sustainable than the animals raised in cages and factory farmed that come on the plastic trays at the supermarket. (It's why I feed my dog a lot of kangaroo, because it is all wild caught rather than intensively farmed). But that's a depressing topic for another thread.

 

[puglover]

never mind

 

[Karen-W]

I read that they took George hunting to make sure he wouldn't cry. I;m sure they are teaching him to be ice cold because he'll be king one day even if that means he will never have a close bond with his siblings.

Ooooookay... Says every person who has ever taken their child hunting. I'm pretty sure that I cried the other day and it's been a good 40+ years since my dad first took me out hunting. And I know my brothers have cried since they first started hunting. Heck, my brother might have even cried tears of pride and joy when my nephew shot his first elk 7 years ago... And I definitely know my nephew cries still. Same with both of his sisters.

 

[canbelto]

Given that we know Kate was attending family therapy sessions to help her brother, James, with his own battle against depression, at the same time Meghan says she was having suicidal ideations, and not one word of it was leaked to the press or made public until James spoke about it last winter, I have a hard time believing that 1) the "Firm" would have ignored or denied Meghan & Harry requesting any assistance, 2) that it would have been a "PR disaster" - frankly, as adept as the "Firm" is at spinning something very negative (see Camilla, see Harry's drugs, partying and racist comments, see the masterful way the Wessexes have gone from 'joke' to highly-respected & valued senior working royals), they would have been all over this as a way to continue to help promote the mental health campaigns initially undertaken by The Royal Foundation of PW/PW, and 3) that this would have leaked before the Sussexes were in a better place mentally and emotionally. You do realize, you are essentially stating that most of the staff and mental health professionals involved would have risked their jobs and licenses if something like this was leaked to the press, right?

James Middleton attending therapy has nothing to do with the Firm. He's not a part of them. He's not a working royal. He's just ... Kate's brother. ANd I assume Kate attended therapy with James because it was a family therapy thing. Again, nothing damaging against the Firm.

Meghan needing mental help while pregnant definitely would have affected the royal brand, so I 100% believe that they were met with silence because you can't have a pregnant woman suicidal. I also think that if Meghan actually killed herself they would have paid off police to say she accidentally died in a car accident. Stuff Diana was paranoid about.

Also, Diana's therapy attempts (including her colonics and astrologists and other dubious treatments she believed in) were all leaked to the press so I'm not sure why Meghan being suicidal wouldn't have gone straight to the Daily Mail.

 

[ballettmaus]

B) If George is bullying his siblings by saying he's going to be king someday, do you really think all the adults in the room are saying "yes, that's right!" and that George is telling his mother he doesn't have to listen to her because he's going to be King someday and she is perfectly okay with that? Because I'd be extremely surprised if that was happening.

Yeah, I can just see her telling him something along the lines of you may be king one day but you're not now, but I am your mother, so do what you're told.

I would like to understand more about the refusal to get Meghan mental help as it has been very well known that others have gotten it in the past and we see the care Kate has participated in with her brother.

One thing I could easily see is that it had to do with Meghan not being allowed to choose who to seek treatment from or what kind of treatment to seek. I believe they said she wanted to check herself into a hospital and I don't have a hard time seeing someone saying no to that for fear of leaks. It's still wrong because getting treated how and by whom you prefer to be treated by is important in those situations and they should have moved heaven and earth to accomodate her needs, I just have a hard time swallowing an outright, blanket and unconditional refusal.

 

[canbelto]

Also they took George hunting. They didn't take Charlotte or Louis hunting. It definitely was an initiation/hazing thing.

 

[MacMadame]

Also they took George hunting. They didn't take Charlotte or Louis hunting. It definitely was an initiation/hazing thing.

When they take Charlotte and/or Louis hunting when they are older, will that be a hazing thing too? I am not a big fan of hunting the way a lot of people do it and fox hunting is absolutely cruel IMO but the Windsors are a hunting family and all the kids get taken hunting eventually as far as I can tell.

 

[mjb52]

Some of this feels a little speculative.

 

[becca]

Also they took George hunting. They didn't take Charlotte or Louis hunting. It definitely was an initiation/hazing thing.

Or maybe they took George hunting because he is older. The royal family hunts they all do. So does a lot of the upper class.

And you know what in the US a heck of a lot of people hunt. And they take their kids. While I am not sure it’s something I could ever do.

I am a meat eater so I cannot morally judge and yes at least the animals get to enjoy their lives running free.

 

[ballettmaus]

Also they took George hunting. They didn't take Charlotte or Louis hunting. It definitely was an initiation/hazing thing.

Or maybe George wanted to go and Charlotte didn't (and they consider Louis far too young).

 

[VGThuy]

Some of this feels a little speculative.

I think all of it does.

 

[becca]

Also they took George hunting. They didn't take Charlotte or Louis hunting. It definitely was an initiation/hazing thing.

You realize that all of the royal family hunts but just the Monarch. I am sure it was a very important moment in his family and I am sure when Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis go it will be special to. It’s a huge bonding thing families do.
Bonding- not hazing

 

[MsZem]

I read that they took George hunting to make sure he wouldn't cry. I;m sure they are teaching him to be ice cold because he'll be king one day even if that means he will never have a close bond with his siblings.

This is just bizarre. William and Harry were not raised to be ice cold, and William and Catherine aren't raising their kids like that either. They take them out, let them play and have fun experiences - as parents should. I personally wouldn't want to hunt or go hunting with my hypothetical kids, but if I were to do so, I'd start with the oldest not because he'll one day be king but because you expose kids to things gradually and in an age-appropriate way.

And maybe Charlotte just prefers to hunt spiders.

Kate Middleton and Princess Charlotte Hunt for Spiders Together

Royal expert Katie Nicholl revealed Charlotte's favorite activity.

www.marieclaire.com

 

[Jenny]

It's still wrong because getting treated how and by whom you prefer to be treated by is important in those situations and they should have moved heaven and earth to accomodate her needs, I just have a hard time swallowing an outright, blanket and unconditional refusal.

Agree - the idea that "everyone" would just say "no" after all they went through after Diana's death, and the public acknowledgement that William and Harry were and continue to be deeply affected by their mother's death, just doesn't make any sense.

And frankly to me Harry's and Meghan's own actions don't make sense either. Harry pretty much gave up his entire life for his wife, there's no doubt he loves her very, very much, and given his own experience surely he would have moved mountains to help his wife? His own experience and years of working with mental health charities would surely have equipped him to both support her and find professional assistance? And Meghan, with her non-royal background and tight knit group of well-connected friends could not confide in anyone or ask them for a number she could call? Harry didn't reach out to these friends either, on behalf of his wife? And all those women who attended her baby shower and all those celebrity friends who attended the wedding - people who again are well aware of mental health issues and likely have very solid - and discreet - connections to people who might help - did nothing? Even those of us who just watched all this play out in public knew things weren't going well for Meghan and Harry beginning before they even got married, so why didn't those close to them support them, especially when they raised their hand and said we need help?

As is so often the case, when only one side is talking, it's less than half the story.

 

[starrynight]

I think the next question is then what happened in the end? Only the beginning of the story has been told as well.

It seems to be the case that Meghan is no longer suicidal or has clinical depression (or at least they are not talking about it). Did they end up getting treatment for her eventually? It's not like one just snaps out of being that severely mentally ill - which is what you need to be to seriously consider suicide (especially when pregnant).