ISU 2025 GPF Men FS - Fa, A Long Long Way To Shun

[tony]

He's made mistakes in the jumps in every skate I've seen this season.

He came in 4th in the segment because A) he threw away a lot of points on all of that stuff and B) there were zero rotation checks on Grassl. Sato also got a significant boost in PCS from his norm, probably from skating right after Malinin although he did have more of a program than Ilia anyways.

 

[MINAM]

I'm glad Kagiyama and Sato didn't have a malt-down after Malinin's skate - which was amazing.

 

[rfisher]

I still contend silver and bronze are totally up for grab at the Olympics, especially bronze. But, just let it be skate after skate that just gets better and the medalists are all worthy

 

[tony]

Hard disagree. Kagiyama had so many little errors, balance checks, etc. If a fall is going to cap the PCS, the multiple mistakes that Kagiyama had -- which I find even more disruptive -- should cap the PCS, too. 8.5 seems appropriate for what Kagiyama put out with three mistakes plus several other little errors.

It was moreso about Ilia's 92 but go off. Or actually, someone, anyone show me which components criteria Ilia fulfills to ever get the PCS he earns.

Kagiyama's skating skills are not dipping down to any kind of score to get to 8.5 average as a whole in any world.

 

[MacMadame]

He came in 4th in the segment because A) he threw away a lot of points on all of that stuff and B) there were zero rotation checks on Grassl. Sato also got a significant boost in PCS from his norm, probably from skating right after Malinin although he did have more of a program than Ilia anyways.

What's your point? A season's best score only put him in fourth, which says to me that something needs changing about this FS. How is what you said a contradiction of what I said?

 

[Kateri]

It overwhelms him. I think the lengths his team has gone to with this FS - the special music arrangement, the custom recording, etc - plus the subpar construction of the last three elements (the step sequence should precede the choreo sequence, IMO) - it's put this enormous pressure on him and he has yet to deliver a clean FS yet this season, which leaves a "hmmm" impression in the end.

And once you've had a prestigious composer create you something bespoke, it's really hard to admit it doesn't quite fit, or suit you, and maybe you need to hack at it with your scissors and add some more frills. As it were.

 

[tony]

What's your point? A season's best score only put him in fourth, which says to me that something needs changing about this FS. How is what you said a contradiction of what I said?

He needs to skate his free skate clean when everyone else skates "clean" or called clean and they leave little room to differentiate PCS. I don't think it's that hard to follow. He's had problems skating a clean FS for years now.

 

[Karen-W]

What did you just watch? Nowhere near his best. Doubled toe loop. Doubled loop (and a messy combo there at that). Tight 3A at the end. Quite a few points thrown away in those two missed opportunities at triples in the combo.

Well, between Ilia's errors in the SP and Yuma's errors today, I'd say it's probably a wash in the number of points each gave away.

The program itself doesn't work for Yuma. Maybe clean, it might all come together, but I'm not seeing it. The step sequence after the choreo sequence just KILLS the momentum & buzz from the audience. I'd probably move the choreo sequence to the very end with the final spin in between the step & choreo sequences for maximum effect, but I think his team doesn't recognize the issue because he has yet to skate the program cleanly. Beyond that, the music doesn't feel like quite as natural a fit to Yuma & his personality as the SP.

 

[Wyliefan]

I suppose it's my bias because I love this music, but I don't see what most of you are seeing. I think the program is great and will look amazing on him if he can get the mistakes cleaned up.

 

[Private Citizen]

What did you just watch? Nowhere near his best. Doubled toe loop. Doubled loop (and a messy combo there at that). Tight 3A at the end. Quite a few points thrown away in those two missed opportunities at triples in the combo.

That is his best, at least recently. It's not his theoretical maximum, but he hasn't shown the ability to skate much better than he did. He's not the skater that people make him out to be, especially technically.

Kagiyama's skating skills are not dipping down to any kind of score to get to 8.5 average as a whole in any world.

I agree with the US judge here -- 9.25 skating skills, 8.5 presentation and composition for Kagiyama.

 

[tony]

I agree with the US judge here -- 9.25 skating skills, 8.5 presentation and composition for Kagiyama.

So 87.41 or so. But I'm still asking what criteria Malinin fulfills to get anywhere near a 92, as you want to impose your own new rules of max PCS caps for 'minor' mistakes. Going by the actual rules, of course, I'm asking for Malinin.

 

[Karen-W]

So 87.41 or so. But I'm still asking what criteria Malinin fulfills to get anywhere near a 92, as you want to impose your own new rules of max PCS caps for 'minor' mistakes. Going by the actual rules, of course, I'm asking for Malinin.

FWIW, I think Ilia's program is constructed better than Yuma's. I like the step sequence in the middle of the program - even if it wasn't quite as on today as it can be. I think they're both even on presentation - each one brings their own intensity to their programs. It's a matter of personal preference, IMO, the style a viewer prefers, but both fulfill the criteria.

Also, let's just stop kidding ourselves here. If Yuma had the technical prowess to deliver a 5 quad program, he'd absolutely sacrifice some of his PCS to do that the same way Ilia has.

 

[Private Citizen]

So 87.41 or so. But I'm still asking what criteria Malinin fulfills to get anywhere near a 92, as you want to impose your own new rules of max PCS caps for 'minor' mistakes. Going by the actual rules, of course, I'm asking for Malinin.

Malinin doesn't need PCS . He's a clear winner in any system. I'm not going to argue that he wasn't overscored on components, but I would have him even with Kagiyama on this particular night. (Higher on presentation; even on composition; lower on skating skills.) Your original post was comparing the two, right?

Where I think the system got the result wrong is Kagiyama over Sato. If that's what the system produces, I can (sort of) accept that. We should change the system and institute a formal cap on PCS for multiple mistakes, the same way we did for falls (because judges could not do it on their own without the guidance).

 

[tony]

Also, let's just stop kidding ourselves here. If Yuma had the technical prowess to deliver a 5 quad program, he'd absolutely sacrifice some of his PCS to do that the same way Ilia has.

Then people should stop using this as an excuse and maybe just mark him appropriately to what he puts out, I guess? You're saying you either have a program or you do 5 quads. Then give credit for the 5 (or 6 or 7) quads and don't give 92 PCS. I also don't find this a hard concept. Because if you think 92 PCS is sacrificing PCS.....

There is not one actual criteria in the Composition mark that I'd give Ilia anywhere near Yuma. There's an actual program there from the start with Kagiyama.

Composition:
* The intentional, developed and / or original arrangement of the repertoire of all types of movements into a meaningful whole according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern and musical structure.

Multidimensional movements and use of space
Connections between and within the elements
Choreography reflecting musical phrase and form
Pattern and ice coverage
Unity

 

[NinjaTurtles]

The PCS scoring system is a good example of statistical false precision.

The handbook does it to itself by not having fully measured definitions; “Outstanding”, “Excellent”, “Very good” invite a relative ranking, but nothing objective on the magnitude of differences on scale. It’s litigate-able in either direction in the absence of not having minimums or other thresholds (how many transitions means 9? How many times should the plane of body movement be varied to be at least an 8?). Not that I want that…

Rulebook is objective enough that Yuma’s CO and SS should absolutely be higher than Ilia’s, but not convinced it’s objective enough to what degree higher.

 

[tony]

The PCS scoring system is a good example of statistical false precision.

The handbook does it to itself by not having fully measured definitions; “Outstanding”, “Excellent”, “Very good” invite a relative ranking, but nothing objective on the magnitude of differences on scale. It’s litigate-able in either direction in the absence of not having minimums or other thresholds (how many transitions means 9? How many times should the plane of body movement be varied to be at least an 8?). Not that I want that…

Rulebook is objective enough that Yuma’s CO and SS should absolutely be higher than Ilia’s, but not convinced it’s objective enough to what degree higher.

100% have talked about this on the podcast. What exactly should all of those mean comparatively? One person's 'excellent' who has seen little to no skating from the lowest levels may be much different than the next who has seen every last thing just based on reference.

But IMO there's a very clear "program" here versus a very clear jumping clinic that only gets going even briefly with the end of the program.

 

[canbelto]

I just rewatched the mens' event. Yuma's program looks nice choreographically but all the vocal edits kill me. So choppy and intrusive, like he's letting the music skate him rather than him skating the music.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Holy shit, Ted full on kame hame ha ‘ing, Kagiyama. It’s not that hard to pronounce.

 

[MacMadame]

He needs to skate his free skate clean when everyone else skates "clean" or called clean and they leave little room to differentiate PCS. I don't think it's that hard to follow. He's had problems skating a clean FS for years now.

I agree with @Karen-W. I don't think the program works and I don't think it's going to beat Malinin even if skated clean unless Malinin makes mistakes and maybe a lot of them. People keep saying the program will be amazing if skated clean but I am not seeing it.

The PCS scoring system is a good example of statistical false precision.

The whole system is that way. A 105.20 program and a 105.15 program are essentially tied. This isn't swimming where there is a real difference between .001 and .002. I think they should round everything up to .25 increments. Precision is not accuracy.

 

[Lanie]

I really feel like okay, Ilia can jump but there is nothing else in his elements, his programs, et al.

I dislike Yuma's program but he's so good.

PCS scoring is weird because having been sitting there timing you get to see shit, and it's just interesting because everyone is always in their own corridor. It's just like press number. Press decimal you want. Boom. And it never seems like it varies, is it because they're told to put everyone in corridors, or what? Because some people can have poor SS but great performance but still you'll get in the same range like, look at Ilia's PCS. Rambling.

It must be frustrating though competing against Ilia knowing you have absolutely zero chance really.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I’m just waking up and going over some results. I’m gonna watch the ladies now, of all six men not a single under rotation, or a q or nothing? Not a single symbol for six men on the protocols?

Well, this certainly was not judged by an nice dance panel.

 

[zigzig]

Ilia - sublime. That was like a superior alien descending from outer space. Still processing a program with 7 clean quads and a thrilling, committed performance to boot. I don't know how he tops this (besides getting a L4 on the step sequence. A second 4A?!)

Yuma - I don't get everyone's rapture over this program - seems like emperor's new clothes to me. It's a nice pleasant program but all the gushing is lost on me. Without diving into the protocols I'm still a little aghast that he was able to beat Shun by 10 points overall.

Shun - his skating is a cold fish but the precision and neatness of his individual elements are really satisfying. Thought he should have gotten second here or at least closer to Yuma.

Daniel Grassl wuzrobbed (of 2 q's). If they're not even gonna take a second look at his quads I don't know what to say. But he stood up on difficult content and has a program that at least HE likes (or seems too) so good. for. her.

Adam - still soothing myself with the assumption that he is perfectly calculating his season to PEAK on Friday Feb 13, 2026 and take home an Oly medal.

Shaidorov - what a bust. He's been adrift all season - Urmanov doesn't seem like he knows how to steer an unsteady ship.

 

[Skaterbob]

I like Yuma's glide and salchow and that is pretty much it. I don't see Yuma's program as some magical gift from the skating gods. Ilia was great and Sato's spin weren't the worse thing ever like they sometimes are. I knew when Grassl didn't get any calls Ilia's jump were going to be home free.

 

[YukiNieve]

From the arena -

- Daniel stepped down from the leader's chair and fell to his knees before Ilia after Ilia finished and came to the K&C area, which made Ilia laughing.

- Ilia clapped each time Shun and Yuma landed jumps from the leader's chair. He gave them both standing ovations and rushed to greet each of them and give them hugs when they came to K&C. Having spent so much time together in competitions and Japanese shows, they have a lot of respect for each other as good sports.

- Ilia's first words in the interview after the free skate were "mecha tsukareta (in Japanese)" which means "I'm super tired". I guess Kao may have taught him?

- Alysa was super nice and cute during her winning run. Instead of just running through, she stopped every 50 feet or so to wave to fans in both the lower and upper levels.

 

[skateboy]

And Malinin says:

"Menning" THIS, haters.

 

[peibeck]

Just caught up on the men and...

Ilia was off the charts. No, his edges are no match for Yuma, but to say he has no choreography until the steps is also, in my opinion, a falsehood. He has incredibly difficult entrances into some of his jumps and spins, and those transitions into elements meld well with the music. Go back a full Olympic cycle and see how he has improved his presentation. The whole audience was with him during that skate and not just because of the jumps.

Yuma is, by far, the best at effortless looking glide and superior edges. Technique to die for! But as I've said since it's summer debut and again throughout the GP, this FP music arrangement swallows him whole. And superb skating skills are not the same as superb presentation skills. At Worlds in Boston last year, I was struck by how his presentation wasn't as impactful sitting higher up for competition than it was sitting a bit lower for practices.

I'm hoping the blind eye of the tech panel with Grassl isn't a preview of Milano Cortina. I guess we'll see in the team event.

Sato was really at this best in his FS. Despite not being as smooth in skills as Yuma, I think he's in it to win Japanese nationals this year.

I don't care that Shaidorov has wanted to skate to the "Diva Dance" for the last 5 years, someone on his team should have had the rough love to say, "Absolutely not." But I guess after last year's success with that nonsensical free mix, Righini and Urmanov didn't care... or are deaf in both ears.

Alas, Adam fell apart after his sad costume reveal (not as sad as Daniel's, but still pretty bad). I'll continue to hope he skates a blinder in Italy, but I won't bet money on it. Sigh.

 

[~tapdancer~]

Just watched the replay, felt like I was transported to another plane of existence. Ilia was everything. There will be no other skater in his dimension for a while. I will be gone to heaven before that happens!

The audience there was so lucky to be in the arena for all those beautiful skates. Grassl was gorgeous, I love that program and he sure did skate it so well. Sato was also wonderful, much prefer him over Yuma. I don't really get Yuma or Adam...they are pleasant enough but I don't feel the need to rewatch them on a regular basis. Shaidorov was forgettable, that music was pretty awful.

 

[sk8nlizard]

And once you've had a prestigious composer create you something bespoke, it's really hard to admit it doesn't quite fit, or suit you, and maybe you need to hack at it with your scissors and add some more frills. As it were.

I like this program fine for him, but I much preferred last years long (even though the music is over used) and I think that program would definitely appeal to the casual viewer more. But I don’t get paid the big bucks to make these decisions

 

[terisa]

I thought I saw a flicker of nerves cross Ilia's face as he came out onto the ice, but I guess it passed quickly. Dude, just let the wings out and FLY already, we know you can do it....

 

[kwanette]

Just caught up on the men and...

Ilia was off the charts. No, his edges are no match for Yuma, but to say he has no choreography until the steps is also, in my opinion, a falsehood. He has incredibly difficult entrances into some of his jumps and spins, and those transitions into elements meld well with the music. Go back a full Olympic cycle and see how he has improved his presentation. The whole audience was with him during that skate and not just because of the jumps.

Yuma is, by far, the best at effortless looking glide and superior edges. Technique to die for! But as I've said since it's summer debut and again throughout the GP, this FP music arrangement swallows him whole. And superb skating skills are not the same as superb presentation skills. At Worlds in Boston last year, I was struck by how his presentation wasn't as impactful sitting higher up for competition than it was sitting a bit lower for practices.

I'm hoping the blind eye of the tech panel with Grassl isn't a preview of Milano Cortina. I guess we'll see in the team event.

Sato was really at this best in his FS. Despite not being as smooth in skills as Yuma, I think he's in it to win Japanese nationals this year.

I don't care that Shaidorov has wanted to skate to the "Diva Dance" for the last 5 years, someone on his team should have had the rough love to say, "Absolutely not." But I guess after last year's success with that nonsensical free mix, Righini and Urmanov didn't care... or are deaf in both ears.

Alas, Adam fell apart after his sad costume reveal (not as sad as Daniel's, but still pretty bad). I'll continue to hope he skates a blinder in Italy, but I won't bet money on it. Sigh.

I think this hits the nail on the head..and you wrote what I have been thinking/feeling."Superb skating skills are not the same as superb presentation skills.." I like Yuma..I like him alot..and his edges and glide take my breath away..