Is Michelle Kwan underrated

Marco

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How much were URs considered in the 6.0 era, though?
They were supposed to be taken into consideration when scoring, and were mandatory deductions in the short program. Obviously, for 6.0, you would never know for sure if and how much each judges deducted. My impression of 6.0 judging was that judges didn't necessarily deduct or heavily deduct for errors or shortcomings that weren't visible. That is, a fall - deduct. A triple without preceding steps - ergh. Back then, it was more important to UR and stand up than to rotate and fall.

90s was an era of technical breakthrough for the ladies. There were 3axels and harder 3/3s by Midori, Tonya and Kristi. By 1995 however, they had all left the competitive ranks and there wasn't a clear leader. Strategically it was probably wise for them to encourage risk taking by the new flock, even if it meant overlooking poorer technique and rougher presentation. It was ironic that at all 3 Worlds from 1993 to 1995, Surya was given high scores for what she tried to do (even if not always successful), but ultimately she still narrowly lost to a 'better skater' with lesser jumps. Like Slutskaya in 2000 and 2001.

The way Michelle lost to Surya in 1995 was almost like how Surya lost to Oksana in 1993. 7 clean triples losing to flawed skates with lesser, imperfect jumps. The difference to me was that Oksana was clearly a better SKATER than Surya in 1993, but Michelle, whilst skating smaller, was not necessarily a worse skater than Surya in 1995. For me, the judges picked the wrong technical skater to promote in 1995. Michelle was clearly on her way to normalizing the 7 triple, 2 3lutz strategy that went missing since Kristi. Funnily, having Surya beat Michelle but lose to Lulu in 1995 is also akin to Slutskaya circa 2000/1 because the judges didn't let her beat Michelle, but let her beat Butryskaya.

Not that it didn't work out for Michelle in the end, but perhaps if Michelle had medalled in 1995, she would go the technical route. Frank had said she already had the 3axel by then.
 

Erin

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Was it that bad? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it. I don’t like to relive trauma.

No. Not all of her jumps got replays, but I think most of them would be called fully rotated under today’s standards. To me, the biggest issues were with the triple loops being pre-rotated, but that would have to be called in real time. She would of course have been called for flutzes, which would have similar consequences. But all the landings were on flat running backward edges, no little hooks.

The biggest surprise to me on rewatching that skate today was how awkward she was. I had always liked Sarah back when she was skating and thought the criticisms of her were too harsh, but going back to watch her now, I have to side with the critics. I said a few weeks ago that I was pleasantly surprised how well Tara’s skating stood up over time. Unfortunately, I can’t say the same for Sarah.
 

thvu

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Was it that bad? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it. I don’t like to relive trauma.
I spared you the trauma

2A
3SQ+3Lo<
3Lze<+2toe
3F<
3T+3Lo<
3TQ

So, just one clean triple actually.
 

Erin

Banned Member
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10,472
I spared you the trauma

2A
3SQ+3Lo<
3Lze<+2toe
3F<
3T+3Lo<
3TQ

So, just one clean triple actually.

Can you do screen shots? Hughes was known for underrotating her jumps (and I agree she usually did), but no matter how many times I look at her jumps in Salt Lake, they look clean on the landings to me.
 

LeafOnTheWind

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The biggest surprise to me on rewatching that skate today was how awkward she was. I had always liked Sarah back when she was skating and thought the criticisms of her were too harsh, but going back to watch her now, I have to side with the critics. I said a few weeks ago that I was pleasantly surprised how well Tara’s skating stood up over time. Unfortunately, I can’t say the same for Sarah.

This was the competition where I actually thought she had improved a lot and maybe had some future potential to get better. I thought it was the least awkward she had ever been.
 

thvu

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Can you do screen shots? Hughes was known for underrotating her jumps (and I agree she usually did), but no matter how many times I look at her jumps in Salt Lake, they look clean on the landings to me.


I don't think I can embed the images in the post.
 

alchemy void

Post-its for the win.
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27,291
I spared you the trauma

2A
3SQ+3Lo<
3Lze<+2toe
3F<
3T+3Lo<
3TQ

So, just one clean triple actually.
What's the point of looking at 2002 jumps through a 2021 lens?

Hughes' LP jumps were rotated enough for 2002 standards, and better than her usual. The SP is a different beast.

The only other proper response to this is:
(I really need to make this a gif).
 

Erin

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I don't think I can embed the images in the post.

Thank you for the screen shots! I am not technologically competent enough to do it myself. Those landings still all look backward to me, so I am not seeing underrotation on the landing. Maybe you can argue pre-rotation on jumps other than the loop too, but that is almost never taken even today and has to be judged in real time. Almost all jumps have a degree of pre-rotation anyway.
This was the competition where I actually thought she had improved a lot and maybe had some future potential to get better. I thought it was the least awkward she had ever been.

I know! That's why I was so surprised to see how awkward she looked, because I know she looked worse in other events and I was expecting more from her best-ever skate. I guess this weekend, I need to go on a late 90s/early 00s binge. It's one of the eras I haven't delved into much during stay at home times.
 
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Coco

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The only awkward moment I was saw was towards the end, the final leap. I think she was trying to control the speed.

Y'all are mean :)

I really love the runout on her 2a...smart move opening up with that. And the music is to die for.
 

thvu

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Thank you for the screen shots! I am not technologically competent enough to do it myself. Those landings still all look backward to me, so I am not seeing underrotation on the landing. Maybe you can argue pre-rotation on jumps other than the loop too, but that is almost never taken even today and has to be judged in real time. Almost all jumps have a degree of pre-rotation anyway.


I know! That's why I was so surprised to see how awkward she looked, because I know she looked worse in other events and I was expecting more from her best-ever skate. I guess this weekend, I need to go on a late 90s/early 00s binge. It's one of the eras I haven't delved into much during stay at home times.
Comparing the take-off and landing angles, she is 100% not backwards on any of the jumps. Calling even the 1 triple toe as clean and not a today Q was generous of me.

What's the point of looking at 2002 jumps through a 2021 lens?
Because someone asked how underrotations were treated under 6.0. Hughes is the point that they weren't taken that seriously at all.
 

VGThuy

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Imagine though if SLC was judged under IJS rules and the top 4 skated the same way that they did. I think there would have been a riot due to audience not understanding the URs. I think of those times in the PBPs where people are celebrating a skate and saying so and so SERVED only to have the tech panel call a bunch of jumps UR and then the tide turning in that PBP with people saying that skater skated "badly". Imagine that happening to Hughes in SLC.

I kind of think ISU has gotten somewhat lucky that IJS was implemented in the age of Yuna Kim who skated well and undeniably won gold in 2010 and then the whole Sotnikova/Kim thing wasn't about URs. There hasn't been an Olympics so far under IJS with the strict UR penalties that was a splatfest and lackluster and there was a skater who seemed clean to the naked eye and was exciting and got the audience going but had chronic UR issues to make them not win. That skater would have probably been out of the final group after the SP anyway, so not so bad.
 

SpeedySucks

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Imagine though if SLC was judged under IJS rules and the top 4 skated the same way that they did. I think there would have been a riot due to audience not understanding the URs. I think of those times in the PBPs where people are celebrating a skate and saying so and so SERVED only to have the tech panel call a bunch of jumps UR and then the tide turning in that PBP with people saying that skater skated "badly". Imagine that happening to Hughes in SLC.

I kind of think ISU has gotten somewhat lucky that IJS was implemented in the age of Yuna Kim who skated well and undeniably won gold in 2010 and then the whole Sotnikova/Kim thing wasn't about URs. There hasn't been an Olympics so far under IJS with the strict UR penalties that was a splatfest and lackluster and there was a skater who seemed clean to the naked eye and was exciting and got the audience going but had chronic UR issues to make them not win. That skater would have probably been out of the final group after the SP anyway, so not so bad.
I think we’ve seen plenty of examples under IJS where the calling is just as political as the judging, if not more so. If SLC had been judged under IJS and the political winds had been the same (which, IMO, were “we are not giving this to Slutskaya”), the calling would have been lenient enough to give Sarah full credit for her jumps. As it stands, I happen to think her jumps were fully rotated, and I have no problem with her winning the gold.
 

Coco

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Can we get screencaps of the top four takeoffs and landings? I realize that is asking a lot...
 

thvu

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Can we get screencaps of the top four takeoffs and landings? I realize that is asking a lot...
I can try to do that. I'm pretty sure the only obvious UR was Kwan's triple flip in both programs from the other top 4 skaters, but it's been a looooooooong time since I've watched those programs.
 

tony

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Flip and especially Lutz were still a struggle for Sarah in 2002, and the rest of her jumps looked better to me. However, she went from << to likely < on almost everything (Lutz was not any better though), as @thvudragon said, and probably got away with it because that was an improvement and they weren't analyzing everything on replay. Arakawa had several built-in deductions in her 2004 Worlds short and even UR in her long but was still able to win, so unless it was a really terrible attempt (think Bonaly kinda jolted landing on that edge 1/2 short and making it obvious she was turning backwards), I think they just looked the other way more often than not.

The short program in SLC is the one I take most issue with. There were mandatory deductions that often weren't taken for skaters, Hughes definitely fit into that group time and time again. She probably deserved 8th at best behind Maria, Fumie, Julia, and Vanessa at a minimum. Watching it again and trying to keep IJS out of the mentality, though, she really did steal the LP night in an otherwise anticlimactic final two groups, aside from Fumie. Michelle even got away with a huge cheated jump in the short and even beat Irina there, and remember the reports afterwards that claimed it was so all three American ladies would be within striking distance of gold after the SP-- whether true or not, it's still strange Michelle pulled it off.

While I really didn't like it when Sarah won in real-time, I think I've come to terms with it being okay. Butyrskaya was my favorite and dealing with her own sudden underrotation and speed issues that year, and wasn't really in the medal hunt anyways even with a Europeans win. Irina was just so sloppy and uninspiring, and I never really got into Scheherazade, especially on the heels of what I think is Michelle's best LP, SOTBS.
 

VGThuy

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I like to think Kwan getting away with first for that SP was justice being served. :p
 

SpeedySucks

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Kwan was the last of the major contenders to skate in the short program. IIRC, the judges had boxed themselves in by that point, and 5 or 6 of the judges had to give her a 5.9 for presentation in order to place her first OR second. It just happened to work out that the breakdown put her first instead of second.
 

olympic

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Thanks to all for the crash course on URs in the 6.0 era. I remember hearing about URs for the 1st time at 01 Worlds in regards to Hughes's SP. I never understood that they were a thing and I considered myself a major fan.
 

Erin

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Imagine though if SLC was judged under IJS rules and the top 4 skated the same way that they did. I think there would have been a riot due to audience not understanding the URs. I think of those times in the PBPs where people are celebrating a skate and saying so and so SERVED only to have the tech panel call a bunch of jumps UR and then the tide turning in that PBP with people saying that skater skated "badly". Imagine that happening to Hughes in SLC.

I think that while the crowd probably wouldn’t be very knowledgeable about this, the skaters would be and that might impact their reactions to a good skate, which might in turn impact the crowd. Kwan wouldn’t be giving the thumbs down to marks when she underrotated a jump, like the did in the short. Hughes might not be flipping out the way she was in Salt Lake, knowing she often was called for under rotations and she would need to wait on the tech panel.
 

arakwafan2006

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i don't believe that she was. I think that for those of us that lived through her first appearance at the Senior Level until now, we have a different standard for excellence than someone who's idol growing up was Adelina Sotnikova, for instance. I appreciated intellectually why Dorothy Hamill was the champion she was and why she's important to skating history but only from a bullet point standpoint. I was too young to appreciate her and her style ( think her Getting to Know you program as a pro) was NOT my cup of tea.

Michelle is definitely not underrated however, it's been a LONG time since she competed and honestly, she may have stuck around wayyy past her prime. The other reason i think that she is a bit overlooked is because, lets face it; this sport, especially the Ladies event is measured by milti rotation jumps. On her best day, Michelle's most difficult combination was a Toe/Toe so, getting a younger skater to laud her is not as easy.

To me, she is my favorite, period. I can still remember where i was watching her skate during every world title she won ( i was team Lu Chen though in 1996). I watch her every time she skates on instagram and am still blown away. To me, she's better than being described, that is just how awesome i think she is
 

barbk

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The rules on including a jump out of footwork, spins not traveling, and underrotation were generally not applied much in the 6.0 era. You could see top athletes take a few steps and then do a long, long, long setup into the jump out of footwork and clearly not be dinged for it. I never knew whether the spin travel issue was really something judges cared about or just something Dick Button harped on. Kwan was great about sticking her spin where she put it. Underrotations were mostly ignored unless there was huge snow thrown on the landing.

OTOH, double footing was severely hit, and skaters with reputations for double footing sometimes got whacked even when it wasn't really clear that they had double-footed a jump. Ladies without a lutz didn't seem to make it into the top 10 very often. For the ladies, doing all the jumps as triples other than the axel in the long program was a big deal.

I remember similar judging issues with dance -- speed, power, edging and coverage seemed to be valued over exactly matching the specified steps in the pattern for compulsory dances.
 

sk9tingfan

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Michelle at the rink in Artesia breaking out her skates and wonderful, spontaneous footwork! I cannot believe how great she looks, regardless of the fact that she's 42 and just had a baby. And she can still skate! Michelle for the TBD spot at SKAM!

 

Sylvia

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ICYMI, this thread is being used for Kween updates in 2022, including her "1st birthday with Kalista Belle" :) (latest page is 28):
 
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Bouffantrex

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Michelle at the rink in Artesia breaking out her skates and wonderful, spontaneous footwork! I cannot believe how great she looks, regardless of the fact that she's 42 and just had a baby. And she can still skate! Michelle for the TBD spot at SKAM!

Michelle is a goddess. She looks fabulous, and still moves more organically and pure than 95% of other ladies skaters today. Thank you for sharing!

The short program in SLC is the one I take most issue with. There were mandatory deductions that often weren't taken for skaters, Hughes definitely fit into that group time and time again. She probably deserved 8th at best behind Maria, Fumie, Julia, and Vanessa at a minimum.
Are you forgetting about the presentation mark? Sarah's lovely Ave Maria short program deservingly placed her 4th place after the short program, on the basis of presentation. Don't forget Sarah has better spins than any of the other skaters listed here. You might be able to convince me Suguri deserved 4th over Hughes, but those other Europeans? Forget about it.
 

Evgeniafan

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Michelle at the rink in Artesia breaking out her skates and wonderful, spontaneous footwork! I cannot believe how great she looks, regardless of the fact that she's 42 and just had a baby. And she can still skate! Michelle for the TBD spot at SKAM!

I would be thrilled to see Michelle at SKAM.
 

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