IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[kwanfan1818]

So that leaves possibility #3: Not enough RUS athletes pass drug-testing scrutiny to use all of their spots. That would mean between 8-10 Pairs with the Senior TES minimums, all of whom have higher SB's than Suzaki/Kihari, and half of whom have SB's higher than SK/K, with a sixth within a point of SK/K.

 

[overedge]

I want to echo what @WanderlustTO said about cheating teams/athletes not only affecting the medalists or qualifiers, but also affecting the placements of all the competitors.

Canada has a sport funding system called Own the Podium, which I believe is similar in structure and operations to many other countries' systems. It awards money based on placements at certain events, which is motivational. But the problem with it is that it's expensive to train at an elite level regardless of your international placements - and if an athlete or team places below their target placing, even if that placement was out of their control, their funding can be cut.

That reduced funding makes it even harder for the athletes to improve their placements next time, because they have fewer resources to support their training. Their "poor" results can also mean less media coverage for the sport, and that makes it even harder to attract other forms of support, e.g. sponsorship. It can be a really vicious downward cycle that's very hard to break out of, because less funding = weaker performances = even less funding = even weaker performances.

Here's a really good article by Thomas Hall (Olympic medalist in canoeing) about how damaging this funding model can be in the long run.
https://thewalrus.ca/the-wrong-track/

So when there's individual doping or an institutionalized system of widespread doping, it doesn't just affect the outcomes of one event, and it doesn't just affect the athletes on or near the podium placements. It can affect the ability of all the other athletes and/or sport federations to participate for many years in the future.

 

[DimaToe]

So this is something I wanna throw out there, what if it was a country like Argentina had all of the evidence against them that Russia had? I’d bet the farm that TPTB would have giving them at multi year suspension at the very least and they probably wouldn’t have any athletes at the Olympics. I get that not all athletes (because I don’t buy this whole “all athletes are innocent” argument) in the Russian system don’t have control over what does and what doesn’t go into their body, but it also doesn’t make any sense (to me) to allow Russian athletes in PyeongChang just to spare the “innocent” few. If anything this just enforces that influence, power and from a Federation gives a certain “advantage” when it comes to bending the rules. So as long as you come from a powerful county you’ll be ok. While it might be the OAR athletes in figure skating ( the most immediate example) to win gold in the team event and ladies skating, most people will know or be told right away that the Olympic champion/s are from Russia, so the the so called “punishment” is just a way to lightly slap the Russian federation’s hand and keep the status quo as unbothered as possible. This “punishment” will not hinder doping in elite level sports, if anything it encourages one to be creative about it.

 

[caseyedwards]

So this is something I wanna throw out there, what if it was a country like Argentina had all of the evidence against them that Russia had? I’d bet the farm that TPTB would have giving them at multi year suspension at the very least and they probably wouldn’t have any athletes at the Olympics. I get that not all athletes (because I don’t buy this whole “all athletes are innocent” argument) in the Russian system don’t have control over what does and what doesn’t go into their body, but it also doesn’t make any sense (to me) to allow Russian athletes in PyeongChang just to spare the “innocent” few. If anything this just enforces that influence, power and from a Federation gives a certain “advantage” when it comes to bending the rules. So as long as you come from a powerful county you’ll be ok. While it might be the OAR athletes in figure skating ( the most immediate example) to win gold in the team event and ladies skating, most people will know or be told right away that the Olympic champion/s are from Russia, so the the so called “punishment” is just a way to lightly slap the Russian federation’s hand and keep the status quo as unbothered as possible. This “punishment” will not hinder doping in elite level sports, if anything it encourages one to be creative about it.

I don’t agree because Kuwait was suspended and all their people were “independent olympic athletes” I think the compromise was Russia getting “Olympic athlete from Russia” but IOC put this Valérie Fourneyron in charge of allowing Russians and she wanted to ban every single Russian from Rio and all major sports events like IAAF did. I think there is illusion of treating Russia well but this Fourneyron person if she still believes in banning all Russians from major sports events could ban all Russians from Pyeongchang. So they will have given Russia illusion of lenience but actually no Russian may be in Pyeongchang.

You have the Kenya case and with all their doping athletes and coaches they were never banned from anything. They did everything they were ordered to though eventually. But in that period when they weren’t doing everything they were told they weren’t banned.

 

[Twilight1]

Clean athletes in sports known to have little doping (ie skating) should be allowed to compete. IMVHO, a full ban in sports where doping is rampant makes sense to me. (Distance skiiing, biathlon etc)

In some aspects Russia got off easy, other aspects not so much.

 

[caseyedwards]

Clean athletes in sports known to have little doping (ie skating) should be allowed to compete. IMVHO, a full ban in sports where doping is rampant makes sense to me. (Distance skiiing, biathlon etc)

In some aspects Russia got off easy, other aspects not so much.

The Chair of the screening panel Valérie Fourneyron wanted to ban every Russian from Rio and all international competitions and I don’t believe she with her record will allow many to compete. This gatekeeper is a Total nightmare for all Russians. She beleieves in total collective responsibility and was relentlessly campaigning to ban all Russians. I’m surprised someone so outspoken to ban all Russians was put in charge of allowing Russians.

 

[barbarafan]

The Chair of the screening panel Valérie Fourneyron wanted to ban every Russian from Rio and all international competitions and I don’t believe she with her record will allow many to compete. This gatekeeper is a Total nightmare for all Russians. She beleieves in total collective responsibility and was relentlessly campaigning to ban all Russians. I’m surprised someone so outspoken to ban all Russians was put in charge of allowing Russians.

Where does she come from? There was someone to do with the investigation on the radio in Mtl and he was saying that there was a great deal of pressure on the athletes who doped to do so and that is a strong reason why they are not allowing any officials. He also mentioned irrefutable evidence against the sports minister and that you would have to be nuts to try to do anything behind Putin's back so it definitely started from the top down. Anyways I hope she is totally fair and if there is any funny business that everyone stands up for the innocent.

 

[caseyedwards]

Where does she come from? There was someone to do with the investigation on the radio in Mtl and he was saying that there was a great deal of pressure on the athletes who doped to do so and that is a strong reason why they are not allowing any officials. He also mentioned irrefutable evidence against the sports minister and that you would have to be nuts to try to do anything behind Putin's back so it definitely started from the top down. Anyways I hope she is totally fair and if there is any funny business that everyone stands up for the innocent.

She was the Sports Minister for France. She’s also a doctor and was on WADAs medical board so thats why there’s so many interviews of her saying all Russians should be banned from international sports competitions.

 

[barbarafan]

She was the Sports Minister for France. She’s also a doctor and was on WADAs medical board so thats why there’s so many interviews of her saying all Russians should be banned from international sports competitions.

Oh...Thanks for the info.hhmmm I hope her loyalty is to sport and not to Didier as no Russians in ice dance and pairs and ladies would make him happy but seriously Wada seems to want to get this right so I think someone (prob. multiples of someones) would come down on her big time. We have a big thing in Canada that it is far more shameful to not be fair or to cheat than to lose horribly. Again I am speaking of grand majority of Cdns not all. We have little sh**its everywhere but the thing is.....they have to bite their tongue and hide it or it will be like a pack of dogs under a treed cat.

 

[caseyedwards]

Oh...Thanks for the info.hhmmm I hope her loyalty is to sport and not to Didier as no Russians in ice dance and pairs and ladies would make him happy but seriously Wada seems to want to get this right so I think someone (prob. multiples of someones) would come down on her big time. We have a big thing in Canada that it is far more shameful to not be fair or to cheat than to lose horribly. Again I am speaking of grand majority of Cdns not all. We have little sh**its everywhere but the thing is.....they have to bite their tongue and hide it or it will be like a pack of dogs under a treed cat.

I think her ban all Russians from international sports competitions might just be because she really believes it and now can make it happen! I did think if she would use her power for French athletes benefit but I don’t know that! The only fact is her ban all Russians agenda.
http://www.liberation.fr/amphtml/direct/element/valerie-fourneyron-un-rapport-accablant-siderant-sur-le-dopage-en-russie_43545/?

 

[Areski]

Clean athletes in sports known to have little doping (ie skating) should be allowed to compete. IMVHO, a full ban in sports where doping is rampant makes sense to me. (Distance skiiing, biathlon etc)

In some aspects Russia got off easy, other aspects not so much.

It's branching off to a a wider topic ... but I do wonder whether IOC does consider scrapping certain sports from the Olympics in which doping is ubiquitous regardless of the country represented like Weightlifting.

 

[skatingguy]

It's branching off to a a wider topic ... but I do wonder whether IOC does consider scrapping certain sports from the Olympics in which doping is ubiquitous regardless of the country represented like Weightlifting.

I think that's certainly a possibility. Whether the IOC has indicated anything to the IWF or whether the IWF is taking steps on it's own to clean up the sport is hard to tell, probably some of both. The recent World Championships excluding 9 countries with the worst recent doping record is a step in the right direction. It can be done and men's road racing is an example where a sport that 15 years ago everyone was doping has turned things around through a very detailed and well documented testing regime.

 

[Areski]

I think that's certainly a possibility. Whether the IOC has indicated anything to the IWF or whether the IWF is taking steps on it's own to clean up the sport is hard to tell, probably some of both. The recent World Championships excluding 9 countries with the worst recent doping record is a step in the right direction. It can be done and men's road racing is example where a sport that 15 years ago everyone was doping has turned things around through a very detailed and well documented testing regime.

I think that cycling has cleaned up its acts recently, so maybe there's still hope?

 

[Doggygirl]

How will this all work for Russia in terms of # of spots earned and the filling of those spots? Will individual athletes have a process to seek approval to compete at the games? If so, where does that leave TPTB in Russia to select who gets to fill the spots earned? i.e. who will decide which 3 Russian ladies "apply?" Or would the Russian skating federation be doing the "applying?" And if so, how does that play with the idea of removing officials from the process?

Maybe this is all obvious but I'm a little slow...

 

[skatingguy]

I think the Russian Skating Federation will make the nominations based on the entry #'s determined by the ISU, and the IOC will then determine whether those nominated athletes are acceptable to compete. It's important to note that it is the Russian Olympic Committee that the IOC banned and that they banned officials with the Russian Sports Ministry, and at this point I don't believe any of those bans necessarily apply to the various Russian associations for individual sports. That could change with sports where the evidence shows that a particular Russian sport association, say cross-country skiing, was involved in the doping scheme.

 

[caseyedwards]

Real question Russia is asking of IOC

A figure skater wins, let's say, and they throw her a teddy bear in Russian uniform onto the ice," Vybornov said. "She picks it up. Can she do that? Or is that an offense?"

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/russia-athletes-compete-olympics-51712648

 

[kittyjake5]

I just hope that this selection business does not involve a mile of paperwork. I would hate to see an athlete miss the Olympics because the tptb missed a deadline to file the necessary paperwork.

 

[TAHbKA]

I think all that stuff is really about the ski and biathlon....

 

[caseyedwards]

I just hope that this selection business does not involve a mile of paperwork. I would hate to see an athlete miss the Olympics because the tptb missed a deadline to file the necessary paperwork.

I think Russia will get all its paperwork in on time. I don’t know about intentions of IOC and Fourneyron. She says they begin their work in late January and then send what they do to ioc which will make their decisions in early February. Olympics begin February 9th!

 

[barbarafan]

I think Russia will get all its paperwork in on time. I don’t know about intentions of IOC and Fourneyron. She says they begin their work in late January and then send what they do to ioc which will make their decisions in early February. Olympics begin February 9th!

tight timeline..but Nationals have to happen first to know who is going to Olympics..After decisions made then paperwork to be done for submission. Would be better for the skaters if they knew sooner that they would be going...I guess they all have train as if they r going.

 

[berthesghost]

Real question Russia is asking of IOC

A figure skater wins, let's say, and they throw her a teddy bear in Russian uniform onto the ice," Vybornov said. "She picks it up. Can she do that? Or is that an offense?"

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/russia-athletes-compete-olympics-51712648

Poor Med. it’s sickening the way they use her as the victimized, teary-eyed little girl persecuted by the bad bad men. She probably just wants to skate, not be a political pawn poster child.

 

[chattila]

Sorry but a victory due to any kind of misfortune on another team is hollow. The figure skaters did not dope and so should be there. If however the figure skaters had been dopers then it is Karma.

You're right, barbarafan. I was referring not to the Russians but to other countries who might have been licking their chops too early, before realizing that, yes, there will likely be Russians in Pyongchang, whatever the team is called (Olympic Athletes from Russia). I'm guessing that all of the major Russian skaters, such as Medvedeva and Zagitova, will be easily cleared to go, since all skaters who participated in the 2017 G-P Series or Challenger Series have recently documented "pee tests" in the IOC system.

 

[caseyedwards]

You're right, barbarafan. I was referring not to the Russians but to other countries who might have been licking their chops too early, before realizing that, yes, there will likely be Russians in Pyongchang, whatever the team is called (Olympic Athletes from Russia). I'm guessing that all of the major Russian skaters, such as Medvedeva and Zagitova, will be easily cleared to go, since all skaters who participated in the 2017 G-P Series or Challenger Series have recently documented "pee tests" in the IOC system.

It’s not just about doping tests from athletes though. It’s anything they want.

 

[allezfred]

U.S. Olympians Cheat, Too. They Just Cheat With An American Accent.

Down came the announcement and up went the cheap bunting and shabby little American flags. “Do you believe in miracles?” a USA Today headline blared, comparing the International Olympic Committee’s decision to ban Russia from the 2018 Pyeongchang Olympics with the U.S. hockey team’s upset of the Soviet team in 1980. “The bad guys just lost, big time,” columnist Christine Brennan wrote in the accompanying piece. Meanwhile, U.S. skiers Lindsey Vonn and Mikaela Shiffrin went on television to chatter about “integrity” and “clean, friendly competition,” as if the Olympics have ever been known for either.

The IOC dumped Russia for having engaged in a broad, state-sponsored doping scheme at the 2014 Sochi Games and before, and now the Americans, jocks and media alike, were beating their chests. It was a new kind of victory, in a new kind of sports cold war.

All of this would be bad enough if the United States had clean hands. But our own record on the subject is dirty, and the finger-wagging Americans ignored a basic truth about the Olympics: We cheat, too. It’s just that our cheating has an American accent — it’s privatized and corporatized.

 

[Willin]

@allezfred I still don't see how it's comparable.

This isn't state-sponsored or controlled, as the article itself states. And, it's focused in specific training centers - none of which train all the top athletes (except for sports like Gymnastics, in which case most athletes are only there for a couple weeks/months a year).
In fact, the sports they're mainly talking about here (Track and Field, Distance Running), while centered in Oregon, have top athletes that train all over the country. Many Olympians in those sports are in college, and therefore regulated by the NCAA. There are also training programs for non-collegiate athletes at universities, and training centers in Atlanta, LA, Colorado, and Portland to name a few. And more top athletes don't train with any program - just themselves and maybe a coach or two. It's hard to believe we'd even have systemic doping in that sport. Systemic, corporate doping at individual training centers? Sure. But nothing organized by US Track & Field themselves.

The allegations Goucher and others leveled against the American program do not rise to the level of Russia’s malfeasance, and the United States has never been accused of engaging in such a systematic scheme of state-sponsored doping. But that’s not the result of our nation’s inherent integrity. As Aaron Gordon wrote for Vice Sports last year, it’s an accidental byproduct of an Olympic system created by American capitalism and run like an American business.

In both Russia and the U.S., the structure of Olympic sports is shaped by the broader political economy. Russia’s doping is state-sponsored because nearly everything in Russia is centralized and state-controlled. In the United States, where the U.S. Olympic Committee, by law, receives no government funding and American athletes receive no state support, Olympic training is outsourced to athletes and private interests like Nike. Any doping is outsourced to those same private interests. Cheating in Russia is a product of the state. Cheating in the U.S. is merely another capitalistic venture: To get money to fund adequate training, one must win, and it’s a whole lot easier to win on dope.

And USADA and possibly the US government actually does stuff about it instead of encouraging it.

Both Montaño and Goucher said they trust the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which has been hailed as one of the most aggressive anti-cheating organizations of its kind in the world. But this February will also mark five years, Goucher said, since she first quietly alerted the Anti-Doping Agency to alleged widespread doping at the Oregon Project, and it has been two years since the scandal became public. The agency’s investigation is still ongoing, and there have been indications that some punishments loom.

NONE of us are saying doping doesn't happen in the US - it totally does. We're saying that it's not comparable to Russia. Even at training centers with doping programs like the Nike one, those programs can't possibly reach all of the US athletes even in that sport.

 

[allezfred]

The point of the article is that doping in both Russia and the U.S. is a reflection of the way sport is organised in those countries.

 

[BlueRidge]

@allezfred

NONE of us are saying doping doesn't happen in the US - it totally does. We're saying that it's not comparable to Russia. Even at training centers with doping programs like the Nike one, those programs can't possibly reach all of the US athletes even in that sport.

The need to keep bringing up the US in this context is simply evidence that so many people still maintain a Cold War attitude, manifesting itself in the case of that HuffPo article as the need to always make sure to emphasize that capitalism is just as bad (if not more so). Just more politicizing of everything.

 

[caseyedwards]

It’s a very interesting point and something I wondered about. If almost all parts of Russian sports is state sponsored than everything that goes on is state sponsored. Doping or not doping. When government ministers run sports organizations like Mutko runs Football it’s so intertwined there is no difference between state and sport. It’s illegal for attorney general of US to be baseball or football commissioner. Maybe Russia just needs to privatize all its sports. That wouldn’t end doping but Russia would no longer be in danger of being suspended again! Ioc was criticized because Soviet Union used “professional level” hockey players when US was banned. There was no “pro” so everything was government and loophole! Was alleged.

 

[Sylvia]

http://tass.com/sport/980211

MOSCOW, December 11. /TASS/. All Russian athletes have announced plans to compete in the 2018 PyeongChang Winter Olympic Games under a neutral flag, the Russian Olympic Committee athletes' commission chair Sofya Velikaya said.

"Everyone is preparing and hopes to perform. At the moment, there are no athletes who have refused to take part in the Games," said Velikaya, who is a Russian sabre fencer and Olympic gold medalist.

The Russian Olympic Committee athletes' commission backs the Russians who have decided to compete in the PyeongChang Games as neutral athletes, Velikaya told reporters.

"Today, we held a meeting and discussed the decision made by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) on our athletes’ participation under a neutral status," Velikaya said. The commission was tasked with asking all winter sports athletes about their plans.

"The athletes’ position is that the majority of them want to take part in the Olympic Games," Velikaya said. "The athletes are well aware that there won’t be a flag and an anthem of the country, but they still represent Russia."

The commission has also written a letter to IOC President Thomas Bach asking him to review the decisions. "We ask the IOC to be unbiased in regard to the athletes at the Olympics. We don’t want them to invite team members number five or six, and not the leaders," she said.

The letter also calls on Bach to revise the life bans slapped on Russian medalists of the Sochi Games. "That’s because the athletes were already punished and have the right to take part in the Olympics in line with all the rules envisaged in the IOC regulations," she noted.

The final decision on the Russian athletes’ participation in the Olympic Games will be announced at the national Olympic meeting scheduled to be held on December 12.

 

[allezfred]

The need to keep bringing up the US in this context is simply evidence that so many people still maintain a Cold War attitude, manifesting itself in the case of that HuffPo article as the need to always make sure to emphasize that capitalism is just as bad (if not more so). Just more politicizing of everything.

So you don’t think doping is a problem in a country that gave us Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong and Justin Gatlin? Alrighty then.....