Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

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As much as they shouldn't be, the Olympics have always been deeply political throughout their history. The Olympics will probably always represent more than just athletes winning medals and getting their faces put on a Wheaties box. They are entrenched in politics, and believe it or not, elementary, high schools and universities did teach and have courses addressing this very topic. Now, sadly, it's more of an agenda geared toward brainwashing and not so much the teaching of accurate history, but I digress. As wonderful as the Olympics can be, they are deeply corrupt and shamelessly political. The athletes get lost in the melee more often than not. It should be about the athletes, but oftentimes there is a lot of B.S. to cut through in order to enjoy and recall the true intention, meaning and spirit of the Olympic Games.

Also, I would just like to say that there is no reason to get defensive and all stirred up about my comments. If you don't agree, no problem! We will agree to disagree. That's certainly a reasonable remedy, as opposed to arguing or beating a subject to death, I would think.
 
You make so many good points!

It's a scary sad complex situation.

Olympics should be about the athletes but yet again, governments, committees ruin it.
Is there anyone on the committee that shows signs of logical, for the athletes, kind of character? Is there any hope that the Olympics will be about athletes instead of political games and profit?
 
@Weve3 Yes, it is fine to disagree. But what I take issue with (and I'm assuming what @IceAlisa takes issue with as well) is that you are disagreeing with us without more specifically stating your position or providing any evidence for your position. How can I disagree with someone or hold a discussion if I have no idea what their position even is?

I do agree with you that it's unfortunate that athletes get caught up in the politics. In this case it seems to be Russia trying to use its athletes as a means to assert dominance. I don't think the athletes wanted to dope to win - I'm sure most if not all wanted to win fair and square - but political pressure is a beast. In Icarus, Rodchenkov himself said the point of the doping scheme was to help show Russian greatness not only to the world, but was mainly implemented so that Russian greatness could be used in order to improve public opinion on the direction of the country and distract from other internal political issues Russia was facing.
What I don't buy that this is a US vs Russia political thing considering that other countries, including Jamaica (a situation much messier for the IOC than Russia's), Kenya, Mexico, and China (among other countries), are all under investigation for doping programs. Like Russia, Kenya was very close to being banned from Rio. Russia is simply the one we're talking about because of the countries with big investigations going they're the one with the most athletes potentially affected and the ones with the most evidence. I think the China situation is being ignored because the allegations are old news (originally from 2012) and are mostly in regards to things that happened in the 80s and 90s as opposed to as recent as 2014, but considering that new articles on the topic were published in October of this year, who knows... Maybe the IOC/WADA just doesn't have any evidence of recent enough doping issues to try banning them for 2018.

(Also, if you know anything - literally anything - about how academics works these days, you'd know it's not about brainwashing anyone. More petty disagreements between experts and starving overly educated individuals fighting for $$$)
 
Willin said:
@Weve3 I've taken no fewer than five college history classes, including a history of athletics class and I still have no idea what you're talking about...

I don't think Russia will boycott, and if the country does I still think individual athletes will be able to and choose to compete. I do not see Russian figure skating being banned or boycotting, even if they can't compete under the Russian flag. Because even if they can't compete under the flag, winning a medal is still a propaganda tool, and perhaps a more powerful propaganda tool if they feel persecuted. They could angle it "the athletes that did compete are clean, as opposed to those rotten apples who were kicked out, and they were able to win anyways," or "no matter what flag they compete under, they are still the best." After all, once the athletes get back to Russia, or even in interviews at the Olympics, there is nothing stopping the athletes from celebrating in a patriotic way. As long as it's not at an official Olympic ceremony, they can still rep their country. At least in skating, the community is so small that I could see US, Japanese, and other skaters lobbying to allow Russian skaters compete.

I also think few countries would boycott in solidarity with Russia. Perhaps Ukraine due to current political pressure and recent Russian military actions to move into Ukraine, but even then I don't even think they will. Unless you name specifics and provide good, thorough analysis of why they would support the Olympics no one will believe you.

And yes, I will enjoy the Olympics. I will be disappointed if Russian skaters cannot compete, but that's out of my hands, so I will enjoy what I can and cheer for those I can watch.
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This is not true. If IOC adopted the rules of the IAAF all the Russians will be Under a strict gag order where they can never say in public what country they are from

 The display, by any person, including without limitation Neutral Athletes, of the national colours, flag, name (in any language or format) national emblem or other national symbol of a suspended Federation shall be prohibited in the same terms as Political/Religious Advertising under the Advertising Regulations and shall be subject to the sanctions set forth under Article 11.1.1 of the Advertising Regulations


No statements shall be given, written, broadcast, posted or distributed in any format during the event by any Neutral Athlete or his/her accompanying person on behalf of anyone other than themselves as individuals.

https://www.iaaf.org/download/downl...4a7d.pdf&urlslug=Neutral Athletes Regulations

Any Russian says anything about being from Russia in Pyeongchang forget it! If they won a medal it will be taken away!


Russia agreed to this for little IAAF worlds but they are all strident now never in olympics
 
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Weve3 said:
As much as they shouldn't be, the Olympics have always been deeply political throughout their history. The Olympics will probably always represent more than just athletes winning medals and getting their faces put on a Wheaties box. They are entrenched in politics, and believe it or not, elementary, high schools and universities did teach and have courses addressing this very topic. Now, sadly, it's more of an agenda geared toward brainwashing and not so much the teaching of accurate history, but I digress. As wonderful as the Olympics can be, they are deeply corrupt and shamelessly political. The athletes get lost in the melee more often than not. It should be about the athletes, but oftentimes there is a lot of B.S. to cut through in order to enjoy and recall the true intention, meaning and spirit of the Olympic Games.

Also, I would just like to say that there is no reason to get defensive and all stirred up about my comments. If you don't agree, no problem! We will agree to disagree. That's certainly a reasonable remedy, as opposed to arguing or beating a subject to death, I would think.
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That’s neither here nor there.
 
Willin said:
@Weve3
What I don't buy that this is a US vs Russia political thing considering that other countries, including Jamaica (a situation much messier for the IOC than Russia's), Kenya, Mexico, and China (among other countries), are all under investigation for doping programs.
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Sorry but Mexico was not investigated because of doping programs, not past or current, the link you post when referring to Mexico case is from 2015 before the Rio Games and it was a matter of the conflict between the government and national sports federations, never about a doping program
 
hanca said:
I don’t think it is discriminatory. For example, some jobs require you to be certain gender. If there is a justifiable reason why you need to hire males or females, it is not discriminatory to put it in the advert that you are looking for males/females.
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That is totally discriminatory. What jobs ad can specify someone be male/female in this century? :huh:
 
Weve3 said:
We have to be careful not to sweep all the Russian athletes under the same rug, to paint with such a broad brush. This is about doping and punishment for those who have been guilty of such things, not about widespread condemnation that punishes the innocent. Ask any clean, innocent athlete who has been caught up in a boycott. They will tell you how crushing and devastating missing out on one's Olympic dream has been for them. Easy for armchair critics to say 'ban them' because you don't know or understand unless you've experienced it.
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Protect the innocent. Same argument since this broke in 2016. Here's the logic. The Federation nominates athletes for the Oly's. They certify the times/scores and attest the athlete is compliant with doping regulations. Now, if this story is believed the Russian federation was actively involved administering drugs, swapping samples, etc. This is a violation of all international norms. ALL samples are now suspect. The accreditation must be revoked retroactively. Therefore all their nominations must be voided. The watchdogs were thee corruptors. I'm sure many athletes knew nothing of the scheme; it doesn't matter.

In the end without more corroborative evidence - athletes/officials coming forward - this will go away. A few medals "given back"; that's all. I don't know how clean athletes from legit federations keep their motivation.
 
allezfred said:
That is totally discriminatory. What jobs ad can specify someone be male/female in this century? :huh:
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Twenty years ago, I was shocked when a friend from Argentina told me it was very common and totally legal for companies to publish job ads that specified applicants male or those of a certain age, for example. I’ve lost touch with him, so I don’t know if it’s still true.
 
allezfred said:
That is totally discriminatory. What jobs ad can specify someone be male/female in this century? :huh:
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Well, let’s say that you are a filmmaker portraying the royal family. You are unlikely to cast a male into the role od Princess Diana. So your job specification for this role would be a female.

Or, you are looking for a carer for your 13 year old disabled daughter. The daughter has a panic fear of males because she had been raped by a group of males. Are you going to employ a male carer to assist her with her personal care?

I suppose, in both cases you could try to be politically correct and not specify that you need a female, but the bottom line is that you will choose the female anyway because you need her in those cases, so if you don’t specify it you would be actually wasting time of all male applicants. Luckily, the law acknowledged that in some cases even in this century one may need a person of certain gender. Similarly, there are justified cases you need a person of certain ethnic background (e.g. Princess Diana probably wouldn’t be portrayed by an Asian person) or of certain religious belief and then it is not unlawful to specify that.

And I am pretty sure there are examples when you need a male and not a female.
 
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Weve3 said:
You too? Hmmm. Well, then, sorry to hear that you (and possibly they) are still — in denial: refusing to admit the truth or reality of something unpleasant.

I hope your friends and acquaintances find a more honorable line of work and see the light, much as mine did. For now, tit for tat.

I suppose Putin could always boycott on behalf of Russia, but the IOC... :shuffle:

Punishing many for the sins of a few would be the argument, and the IOC doesn't have the onions to make such a bold move. Besides, other countries would pull out of the games in solidarity and support for Russia. It is just too much of a gamble.
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But would it be countries anyone cares about. Probably not.

While you still seem to think the Soviet Bloc works I'm not sure it's quite as loyal as you expect.
 
Weve3 said:
Russia has their "puppets." They still yield significant influence around the world. Do not underestimate leftover cold war mentalities. Walls go up pretty quickly when situations like this develop. Athletes do not like to have their dreams stripped away from them due to a country’s politics or a fellow teammate's doping scandal. Athletes usually stand together, and they do not particularly like to see innocent athletes in their own country or others dealt an unfair blow. To think that Russia does not hold power to sway and persuade is naïve. Now, we can continue to go around the (tiresome) horn about this, or we can agree to disagree so that we do not continue to hijack the thread from its original intention of suggesting that Russia is on the verge of being banned from the Olympic Games. I would just recommend that sensational articles and grandiose claims suggesting this be taken w/ a grain of salt.
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Actually I think we may have found a puppet here.
 
Carolla5501 said:
But would it be countries anyone cares about. Probably not.

While you still seem to think the Soviet Bloc works I'm not sure it's quite as loyal as you expect.
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I don't expect any boycott from other countries either in this highly unlikely scenario of Russia being banned. This is completely different time. About the only (internationally acknowledged & IOC) country that is still possibly tied enough with Russia now is Belarus. But there are no communist & democratic blocks to make it repeat.
 
Areski said:
I don't expect any boycott from other countries either in this highly unlikely scenario of Russia being banned. This is completely different time. About the only (internationally acknowledged & IOC) country that is still possibly tied enough with Russia now is Belarus. But there are no communist & democratic blocks to make it repeat.
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Agreed. The IOC's bottom line is to make money, have a successful Winter Olympic Games and put any unpleasantness to rest, as quickly as possible. They are actually quite passive when handing down disciplinary actions, and widespread banning doesn't exactly fit their agenda. Slaps on the hand here and there, one can expect. Glad that you brought the thread back around to its original intent and purpose.
 
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Weve3 said:
Agreed. The IOC's bottom line is to make money, have a successful Winter Olympic Games and put any unpleasantness to rest, as quickly as possible. They are actually quite passive when handing down disciplinary actions, and widespread banning doesn't exactly fit their agenda. Slaps on the hand here and there, one can expect. Glad that you brought the thread back around to its original intent and purpose.
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But now nothing will cause more unpleasantness than Russia at the Olympics. It will cause anger and disgust by Canada, US, GB, Japan, Australia and so many more. Almost Every medal winning Russian in Sochi is having their medal taken away. No one wants to compete against any Russian.
 
https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...sleigh-team-at-sochi-2014-disqualified-by-ioc

And more Russian athletes sanctioned. So, let's do the math here... 232 Russian competitors in Sochi, so far 22 have been banned for doping. One more and that will total TEN PERCENT of their Sochi Olympians. The number seems to be climbing by 3-4 daily. In another 4 days before the IOC Executive Board meets to determine Russia's punishment, we could be talking about 34-38 competitors in total, or, around 15% of their entire Sochi team being banned for doping.

Some of you will jump in and point out that the vast majority of the Russian team is innocent and shouldn't be punished and will, undoubtedly, point to the East German swimmers, or the Chinese, or track & field, cycling, biathalon, and the other usual dirty sports, and all of that is true but I defy you to show me any previous Olympics where 10-15% of a nation's delegation was found guilty for doping. it is disingenuous to assert that 1) the Russian government wasn't involved in this cheating, and 2) that they wouldn't have, without the athletes knowledge, doped them up also if they believed there was a competitive advantage to be gained.

The plain and simple reality is that state-sanctioned doping has never occurred on the level that Russia took it to in Sochi. I do not believe that any other Olympic host nation (not even China in Beijing) would attempt to undermine the integrity of the drug testing system in this way. And, comparing a nation that feeds it's athletes as-of-yet undetectable or not-yet-banned drugs is not the same as swapping out urine samples of dirty competitors. Yes, both are cheating and wrong and should not be tolerated but with the latter you are violating the "spirit" of the law rather than the law itself, and there is always the risk that 3-8 years down the line, when technology and WADA catches up to you, you will be banned.

I strongly believe that in 6 days, we are going to learn the IOC has some balls after all. Sure, some IFs (hockey, maybe the figure skating side of the ISU) won't be happy but they will, ultimately, accept a Russian ban from Pyeongchang. And, for what it is worth, I doubt that hockey would care much if they had the NHL players going to Pyeongchang. They are just upset because they already bungled things so badly with the NHL and are now looking at losing the KHL players as well.
 
Braulio said:
Sorry but Mexico was not investigated because of doping programs, not past or current, the link you post when referring to Mexico case is from 2015 before the Rio Games and it was a matter of the conflict between the government and national sports federations, never about a doping program
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Ah, my mistake then. But you would agree that the other countries I listed are being investigated?

allezfred said:
That is totally discriminatory. What jobs ad can specify someone be male/female in this century? :huh:
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Certain nursing jobs - in particular those that deal with sexual assault victims or individuals with psychiatric conditions. Idk if it's legal to list them as only hiring females, but they will only hire females for those to protect the patients (or the staff, if it's a psychiatric condition making someone hypersexual).
 
Weve3 said:
Does that broad statement of yours include Adelina Sotnikova? I don't think so. ;)
A slap on the wrist compared to what they could do.
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I did say almost. Though it wouldn’t be unreasonable to take away her medal as part of a punishment that erased Russia from Sochi podium
 
Jobs: sperm donor, egg donor, surrogate mother. A lot of patients request a specific gender for their gynecology/urology doc, which is and should be their right.
I am always asked what my preference is of the massage therapist. I’ve had a somewhat uncomfortable experience with a male massage therapist in Vegas...so I choose a female now.
 
allezfred said:
That is totally discriminatory. What jobs ad can specify someone be male/female in this century? :huh:
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People want to see what they want to see (and look for) discriminatory in their mind sexism whenever they can so it sometimes becomes one of these unwarranted accusations. Recently I came across a job offer for animators in a local theatre to carry on activities for children. One of the requirements was being a man. It's likely that they were in dire need of men because they needed such for one of the roles. In chemist's that is focused on selling & advising beauty products for women they narrowed down that they prefer women or in another offer where they needed waitresses. Maybe in my country (Poland) it's different than in yours, idk.

Or manicurist ... in Polish we only have one term that has feminine suffix to it -ka - manikiurzystka. Sure there are maybe some men who can do that but it's likely very rare. There are rare babysitters who are men but people assume & usually wish them to be women.
 
IceAlisa said:
Jobs: sperm donor, egg donor, surrogate mother. A lot of patients request a specific gender for their gynecology/urology doc, which is and should be their right.
I am always asked what my preference is of the massage therapist. I’ve had a somewhat uncomfortable experience with a male massage therapist in Vegas...so I choose a female now.
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Of course it’s the right of the customer to choose if they would prefer a male or female massage therapist. However, it would be discriminatory (here at least) for an employer to specify they were only recruiting a particular sex.

By the way, someone legally female can be a sperm donor and someone legally male can be an egg donor or surrogate mother. ;)
 
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