Imamov's interview with Savchenko

[rfisher]

Why do people think skaters can't have opinions? I'm not a fan of Sui/Han myself. So what. I'm not obligated to provide any supporting evidence for my opinion. She worked with Yu/Zhang in China. Maybe she has a vested interest in them. So what. Moreover, skaters often don't follow other skaters unless they are doing shows together. It's like a lot of surfers who don't care about watching surfing. They prefer to do it. Fans are obsessive. The skaters aren't. She was asked a question and she gave an answer. So what.

 

[Jeschke]

Do we have statistics in here how many threads turned into a mess?

 

[Japanfan]

Aljona Savchenko is not reading your posts. She is not going to provide you with annotated videos. Let it go.

I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over the matter, TBH.

But if Savchenko, or someone else, does not provide evidence, I'll stick to the view that she is just being sour grapes.

 

[cs.berlin]

Fans are obsessive. The skaters aren't. She was asked a question and she gave an answer. So what.

In my region, there is a motto for pointless grunts:
What does it bother the oak when a pig scratching at her. (without question mark)

 

[MsZem]

Do we have statistics in here how many threads turned into a mess?

I'm sure Michelle Kwan would know.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Radford was training with Steuer between partners, and some friends and I were hoping he'd team with Volosozhar, because their lines would match really well. Watching Morosov, what Savchenko said about his ambition rang true, and either he or Volosozhar said he competed again because TV needed a partner, he wanted her to be able to skate, and there were few options in Ukraine.

 

[MsZem]

Watching Morosov, what Savchenko said about his ambition rang true, and either he or Volosozhar said he competed again because TV needed a partner, he wanted her to be able to skate, and there were few options in Ukraine.

I don't know how ambitious he was or is, but Stas Morozov was an early career partner to the last two OGMs. Clearly he was an excellent starter partner

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't know how ambitious he was or is, but Stas Morozov was an early career partner to the last two OGMs. Clearly he was an excellent starter partner

No doubt about it. But many excellent skaters are motivated up to a point, sometimes based on their partner's needs more than their own, but clearly not as single-mindedly as Savchenko demands of everyone.

 

[Rock2]

If he is strong enough to handle Duhamel in lifts, why can't he handle Savchenko?

Need bigger twists and throws. She wants to be launched to the rafters. Eric can't do Level 4, Plus-5 twist.

 

[canbelto]

Aljona sounds incredibly type-A. I think it'd be hard for anyone to partner her no matter how talented.

 

[aftershocks]

... unless she or others are willing to provide examples of the alleged copying, her opinion isn't worth a whole whole... if Savchenko, or someone else, does not provide evidence, I'll stick to the view that she is just being sour grapes.

Woah... It's only figure skating now. Whether you like it or not, emulating or inspirational copying happens all the time in figure skating. It's how the sport is pushed forward as a matter of fact. It's nothing new, and it's nothing negative. Influences are all around us in every field of endeavor. In that respect, there's nothing new under the sun, and no one reinvents the wheel. It's only building upon what's been done before and making your own stamp.

I respect Aliona. She's unique and her own person. We are all different in how we process what happens to us in our lives. I'm happy for her that she achieved her dream, and now life moves on, and that transition is never easy either...

Take a listen to the recent podcast interview with Sasha Cohen.

Oh and btw, I will post a link in J/C fan thread to a brief Ice Talk interview Jackie Wong had with Vanessa James at Skate America. And please don't tell us @Japanfan that Vanessa is seeing things which don't exist and that her opinion isn't worth a whole lot. I think these champion athletes know much more about the sport than we do sitting on the sidelines popping off with our two cents.

We don't have to agree with the opinions of skaters, nor with differing fan opinions, but some things are simply obvious. Moves, concepts, and program themes are emulated all the time. And right now that's all part of what's been making pairs and ice dance fun to watch. There's a very exciting cross-fertilization between these disciplines that's been going on for awhile, and especially now with a number of former ice dancers turned choreographers influencing the growth we are seeing in pairs...

 

[Japanfan]

And please don't tell us @Japanfan that Vanessa is seeing things which don't exist and that her opinion isn't worth a whole lot.

You sure do have your knickers in a knot. I think it is pretty obvious that opinions can be lacking in fact. I said I would like to see exactly where/how S/H copied S/S - beyond to extent to which many pairs do similar things.

And I've long been a J/C fan.

 

[cs.berlin]

[...] Sui/Han were Aliona/Bruno's serious rivals for OGM. I'm not surprised that she's not particularly charitable toward them. Sui/Han probably aren't exactly charitable toward Aliona either.

There's really no talk of words like "charity" on the part of the Chinese. Objectively it was about the quite rightly feared defeat against the favored German pair, for this reason, decency and fairness were sacrificed or, more precisely, disgusting fraud was used. Perhaps it was forgotten in the meantime how the score of S/H vs. S/M came about - it can't hurt to refresh the memory of it a little:

Chinese figure skating judges banned for bias at Pyeongchang Olympics

The International Skating Union revealed Thursday that the Chinese judges "committed one of the most serious ethical offences a judge can be accused of" in relation to the scoring of the event.

Embarrassment for China ahead of Beijing 2022 as ISU bans two officials for biased judging at Pyeongchang 2018

[...] The investigation into Huang Feng found a similar level of suspicious scoring.
He gave the second highest grade of execution scores to the Chinese pairs team of Sui Wenjing and Han Cong, who won the silver medal.
It was found he had awarded them a score of plus three in seven different elements, which none of the other judges did, while at the same time he gave Wenjing and Cong's rivals, the German couple of Aljona Savchenko and Bruno Massot, the lowest score of all the judges.
It has emerged Feng had already been warned about his conduct a month before Pyeongchang 2018 following suspicious scoring at the 2017 ISU Grand Prix Final in Nagoya, but was still allowed to participate as a judge.
In discussing Weiguang's case he ISU concluded: "There is evidence of preference for the Chinese skater and prejudice against his strongest competitors.
"Her (Weiguang's) marks were completely unrealistic."
The report into Huang also concluded that he "obviously favoured his pair also vis-a-vis the other top candidates for the Olympic gold medal".
As a result of the investigations Chen has been banned for two years and excluded from judging at the 2022 Winter Olympics in Beijing.

Aljona would not be Aljona if she could not judge such messes properly. I.e. she wouldn't expect S/H to ask for forgiveness in public. Whoever cheats in this case does not apologize and S/H themselves have nothing to report in their system. But to give respect to "the chinese pair" would be ridiculous and alien to life.

Aljona is carved from other wood: one year later she goes to China and helps other couples there. I think not only the Chinese will learn a lot from her in the future.

 

[hanca]

I don't know how ambitious he was or is, but Stas Morozov was an early career partner to the last two OGMs. Clearly he was an excellent starter partner

Did you forget his skating? He was very strong with lifts and twist, but couldn’t land jumps to save his life. I think his problem wasn’t that he wasn’t enough motivated or not enough ambitious. I believe he was realistic and knew that there is only so far he can get with his jumps. To be fair, he did land the jumps sometimes...rarely...by accident. But not in the SP and FS in the same competition.

 

[MsZem]

Did you forget his skating? He was very strong with lifts and twist, but couldn’t land jumps to save his life. I think his problem wasn’t that he wasn’t enough motivated or not enough ambitious. I believe he was realistic and knew that there is only so far he can get with his jumps. To be fair, he did land the jumps sometimes...rarely...by accident. But not in the SP and FS in the same competition.

Have you looked at him? It's a miracle the guy ever got off the ground

Aljona may be engaging in a bit of revisionist history. AFAIK Morozov originally retired because of injuries before coming back to skate with Volosozhar.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing that Morozov was great skater. My point is that he was a great early career partner to two of the greatest pair ladies who ever competed. I'm sure that both benefited from skating with him - just as they benefited from eventually moving on.

 

[Tinami Amori]

In my region, there is a motto for pointless grunts:
What does it bother the oak when a pig scratching at her. (without question mark)

Was juckt es das Eiche, wenn eine Sau sich an ihr reibt.....
(What does the oak care, if a sow rubs against it)

 

[cs.berlin]

die Eiche (klein aber fein, so viel Zeit muss sein!)☝

 

[Tinami Amori]

die Eiche (klein aber fein, so viel Zeit muss sein!)☝

sorry... you're right! i was thinking of "das Schwein" and thought all pigs are "in neutral".. thank you for correction!

 

[Tinami Amori]

Ok, here is my rare chance to say what I think about Savchenko, or forever hold my peace, since this is not a typical gushing fest about “great Aliona”, and people are expressing their critiques of some of her words and actions.

As a skater: i enjoyed many of Aliona’s and Robin’s, and later Aliona’s and Bruno’s, performances. She was innovative, elegant on ice, interesting and professional.

Her determination and accomplishments as an athlete are certainly to be admired. It’s “how she went about accomplishing them” that I often questioned. Not everything, but some of her actions and behavior.

She is ruthless, and not always in a good way. To me, she is “Maria Braun of Figure Skating”, a character from Fassbinder’s film “The Marriage of Maria Braun”, who would do anything to survive in its most primitive, non-intellectual sense.

Was Aliona driven into that “basic survival mode” where no morals or social ethics matter, like the character in the film? No. The character in the film is fighting for basic needs (food, water, shelter, security) surviving the aftermath of WWII. Aliona just wanted to skate and win a medal – that is not a life necessity.

Based on what I observed, seen, read, heard….. Aliona was blinkered in one direction, to succeed in skating, and it mattered not to her who she steps on and what social rules she would break and how much she can hurt others with her. If she had to kill without penalties, she would.

Few people, “former Soviets” in or around German figure skating, helped Aliona come to Germany and assisted her becoming a part of German FS Federation and to find a partner. Aliona originally expected to skate with another partner, other than Robin. That partner became unavailable by the time she got to Germany, and Robin was suggested to her. After she met Robin face to face, she said a phrase to the “former Soviets” that even very un-PC “former Soviets” did not dare to repeat verbatim in their social media and blogs..

While nobody held a candle in Aliona’s or Ingo’s bedrooms, the “former Soviets”, directly or indirectly, referred to Ingo/Aliona as a “couple”. They went to events, parties together, and apparently were less “restricted” in their behavior when “former Soviets” were around.

The relationship in Aliona-Ingo-Robin venture seemed to have similar dynamics as in Muhortova-Vasiliev-Transkov trio. The lady and the coach made all the decisions, and informed the guy – two against one.

When after 2014 Aliona was at the cross-roads about her future, and issue of funding and money was brought up by Ingo, who is not working “for the love of skating alone”, Aliona dropped him like a hot potato. That “partnership”, no matter what it was, was of no further use to her.

She cut off “the past” completely and started “shopping for a new partner and a new country under which flag she is to stand and to sing the hymn”. She found Bruno, wanted to drop “German flag and hymn” and sing the French one. France did not work out, so she decided “ok, I guess I have to stand under German flag and sing the German hymn again. French ones did no work out”.

Aliona is a very “simple mechanism” intellectually, she will intuitively do what she thinks she needs to do today, now, what furthers her the most in her pursuit, without thinking of others. So far it works for her.

I would not be surprised (although do not wish it upon her family) if she moves on to another relationship at some point, if she meets a man who suites her better.

Nothing would surprise me coming from Aliona. And I am not surprised that she does not remember the names of other skaters; does not realize that 13-14 year old skaters do not skate in “seniors” against older skater; that it is OK to accuse S/H of copying; that it is ok to rave about her last partner and be obviously dismissive about Robin; that it is ok to dis her former partner Morozov. Nothing Aliona does or might do will surprise me.

She is the kind of person, as we say in Russia, who lives by the rule “if you hit, I ran – if you give, I’ll stand next to you”. If something of someone is of “no use to her”…. She will not remember or care..

 

[soogar]

Sounds like everything came from this article: https://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/4296.html

I'm assuming "former Soviets" are East Germans.

 

[cs.berlin]

... we say in Russia ...

"We" in Russia - this reminds me of the encounter with a Russian in Berlin, who told me the first thing: "All Russians lie". I couldn't find out whether he had only addressed the well-known paradox as a joke or whether he was simply not quite right in his head (respectively under his pseudomilitary cap).

 

[Tinami Amori]

Sounds like everything came from this article: https://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/4296.html

I'm assuming "former Soviets" are East Germans.

Thanks for the link.... i got to read it now! (would be nice to read someone who thinks the same as i, for a change...).
"former Soviets" - two were from the Russian part of USSR.

"We" in Russia - this reminds me of the encounter with a Russian in Berlin, who told me the first thing: "All Russians lie". I couldn't find out whether he had only addressed the well-known paradox as a joke or whether he was simply not quite right in his head (respectively under his pseudomilitary cap).

Most Russians i know use this phrase as a paradox joke... but not many know the "history" of the Epimendies or that you're suppose to say "cretan" instead of "russian".

 

[MsZem]

That's certainly a lot of gossip and innuendo from the ex-soviets! I'd take the lot of it with a grain of salt. It's not much of a secret that Savchenko and Steuer were involved. OTOH, the insinuation that she dumped Ingo professionally and then went partner and country shopping is simply wrong. Savchenko and Massot trained with Steuer for months when they first teamed up - you can follow the saga in the original S/M thread (the thread title was changed as matters developed). As an international team, of course they had to pick a country to skate for. It's hard enough to find a good partner, and sometimes it means representing another country. Doing what's best for the partnership and for two people's careers is not a character flaw.

While Steuer could not work on love alone, neither could they pay him on love alone. He was blocked from receiving federation money due to his past with the Stasi, and Savchenko and Massot could neither compete nor do shows until Massot was released by the FFSG. They were in a difficult and stressful situation until Massot was finally released in the fall of 2015. I don't know what they did or didn't offer against future earnings, but if there was no way to sort out the finances, it was impossible for all three to continue working together. These things can happen in life.

So S/M stayed in Germany, found a coach whose approach was clearly right for them, and added Bruno's coach since childhood to the team. In the end it all worked out, and I for one am very happy that Jeff Ballester got to have that accomplishment with his skater before he passed away. I'm sure it meant a lot.

 

[allezfred]

PC's original style was pretty tacky Euro trash before Marie France gave them new public personas.

Woodkid is not pretty tacky Euro trash.

 

[TAHbKA]

Sounds like everything came from this article: https://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/4296.html

I'm assuming "former Soviets" are East Germans.

Ah, lovely. The same journalist who is known for writing about female underage skaters' bust sizes?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over the matter, TBH.

But if Savchenko, or someone else, does not provide evidence, I'll stick to the view that she is just being sour grapes.

Sour grapes for what, she has won everything there is to win in the sport, why would she be jealous of a team that is yet to win an Olympic gold medal.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Whether she likes it or not her career will he defined as “Savchenko/Szolkowy” which was obviously one of the most prolific ever, even though she got Olympic gold with Massot. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the future people say she won gold with Robin! Lmao.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Sounds like everything came from this article: https://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/4296.html

Read the article, actually it is a translation of some old Artur Werner's blog writings. No i did not see it before, and no, it's not "like what i think", although some events mentioned are the same, because they "happened".. . His recap ends with much earlier events.

Werner's blog is not a good source to follow (just FYI) except if one wants a "very alternative take" on some issues. He is worst than Zhulin, as far as knowledge of current trends/events/rules in singles. His idea of a "good performance" by a female skater depends on "how curvy her body is"... the curvier the better.. . I had many arguments with him in the past.. on this and other issues.

But thank you for posting this, always interesting to see "new, that is old".

 

[Doggygirl]

OMG I love Aliona!

"I thought it was not so interesting following the competitions recently. I watch it and am sorry am not on the ice - I could have easily won. "

Come on back girl!

And the shade at Tara L. and at Sui/Han!

 

[aftershocks]

So Aliona is human and she likes to get what she wants. And she's strong and pretty tough that way. More power to her for knowing what she wants and going after it, and btw, succeeding.

Meanwhile, I don't cotton to the over-adulation to the point of having to give Aliona credit way back from 2010 for renewing the current trend we are seeing in catsuits! (this is in reference to gnarly debate from another thread ) But yep, I think Aliona deserves a lot of respect. Sure, she's not perfect, and I have some differing views re how she tends to look at her career in some respects, but no biggie. I don't blame Aliona for being human and for preferring to leave some pain behind, and for apparently not acknowledging the pain she may also have caused others.

Aliona appears to have found love with Liam Cross, so it's a pretty low blow to suggest she'd leave him at the drop of a hat. I think her husband completely loves and supports her, and they appear to make each other happy. It's nice for Aliona that she found someone seemingly 'normal' and down-to-earth to love her and to help support her goals. It's cool he's there for her during what has to be a difficult transition away from a hard-driving, all-encompassing competitive life.

I too have been chuckling over the 'sour grapes' comment in relation to Aliona. OGM six-time World champion Diva Aliona surely don't live on the scale of 'sour grapes' 'tude and she's obviously never even contemplated what that means, forget about what they might taste like. We don't know the context or Aliona's tone of voice, or whatever of this interview. Based on having previously seen Aliona in interviews, she strikes me as an athlete and champion who is not overly self-reflective. She seems to say what she thinks about what she's asked and not worry overmuch or stay angsty about the past, because she's always moving and doing and pushing forward.

I don't get the sense that Aliona has anything against Sui/Han. S/H don't have anything to do with decisions of Chinese judges either. S/H were simply straight-up S/M's biggest rival for gold in Pyeongchang. Maybe Aliona just don't care so much for S/H's skating as much as she does her other former rivals. I think Sui/Han have indeed looked at what other pairs were doing each year when Sui was rehabbing and they were preparing to come back for the last half of the season to try and slay their competition. Sure there may be some slight similarity in movement or program layout or thematics that S/H and their choreographer utilized from S/M's Olympic program. That's not out of the realm of possibility. I didn't notice it because S/H have their own distinct style. And to be honest, neither of S/H's last year's programs were that great -- they were serviceable. S/H just skated them the absolute best they could and put their own personality stamp on their programs in the process. They freakin' willed themselves to win, because they actually weren't in top form.

And fs fans, please realize that the sport is built on the idea of copying or emulating the best moves that we see, usually from winners or trendsetters who have the best programs. It's not a negative. As Vanessa James has said, "It's cool, and it's a compliment" to see other pairs teams emulating some of their moves. That's how it's always been and will continue to be in figure skating, because that's how the sport develops and grows.

Axel Paulsen and Ulrich Salchow were simply gliding around on the ice experimenting, and that's how their eponymous jumps were born, which others tried out to the point where these experimental jumps eventually became the standard-bearers for turning figure skating into acrobatic skating, after the powers that be stopped eyebrow-raising and pearl-clutching. Before Belousova/Protopopov's balletic aesthetic innovations in pairs skating, we did not have death spirals nor the dominant Russian aesthetic... Before Moskvina's creative innovations, we did not have pairs combo spins, etc. In recent years, choreographers, Julie Marcotte, John Kerr, Charlie White, Benoit Richaud, Shae Lynn Bourne, et al have brought exciting movement innovation to pairs (and the latter two to singles as well).

New lift positions are being created all the time. And the ice dance cross-fertilization with pairs has made pairs and ice dance the hottest disciplines IMO. Let's not forget that John Z who coaches Denney/Frazier and James/Cipres was trained in the last years of his competitive career by Moskvina. New and interesting ways of moving and the catch-blade lift position were created by Aliona, with input from Ingo (because let's not forget that Ingo was innovative in pairs well before he met Aliona). And Robin was not just standing there like a puppet either. Robin is the strong, silent type and very understated, but he strikes me as very strong mentally, as well as very talented.