Have you seen this video analyzing Evgenia Medvedeva's jumps?

ToFarAwayTimes

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This is a real eye-opening video comparing Medvedeva's jumps to textbook jumps (as defined on the ISU's own website):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxJFjJ12DyY

Pretty much without exception her jumps are deficient in every way the ISU website says they should be receiving low GOE and deductions. And yet, it's a miracle--she has extraordinarily high GOE and no deductions. The video is a little biased and over the top at times but I think it makes many fair points. Some people in the comments call it the 'Russian fraud' but I'm interested to hear, what do you think?
 

aftershocks

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Whoa! I mean whoa! Before our very eyes. Bad technique by Med on every single jump, not just the double-axel! Thanks for sharing this :eek: video. Exposes Med and faulty ISU judging alright. The video needs to be shared all over the place. Send it to Eteri. Med needs to take some time off and fix her jump technique. I particularly appreciated seeing the correct jump technique examples by Yuna Kim. :encore: Along with Frank Carroll's ISU commentary on proper takeoff on a double-axel to avoid swingy arms and pre-rotation before even leaving the ice.

There's so much focus on scrutinizing under-rotations, while ignoring Shoma's, Med's and Satoko's pre-rotations, and Shoma's and Med's flutzing.

Put the camera on Alina's technique too (which is probably better than Med's, but likely there are issues with some of Alina's jumps too). They are both very slow across the ice too. It looks like Eteri focuses on these ladies mastering quick rotations and then camouflages their jump weaknesses with all the OTT frou-frou and ridiculous pantomiming drama. The overdone PCS is another thing to breakdown and stick pins into. These ladies are talented, but they need to be made to actually develop proper skating technique and mature artistry. Everybody in the sport needs to stop with all the kowtowing and bowing down all the time simply because they are consistent 'Russian ladies' jumpers with fast rotations attached to faulty, improper jump technique. Alina probably has somewhat better jump technique, but she needs to develop more speed and eliminate the stockings over boots and all the pretentious, exaggerated 'I'm a ballerina' posing, which camouflages her immaturity.

I'd also like to see Satoko's jumps in slo-mo replay to figure out how she is even getting around. She's magical on the ice with everything except her jumps (albeit she somehow hovers over the ice like a hummingbird's wings on those jumps). There are pre-rotations going on with Satoko too.

It's nothing new though that the sport of figure skating doesn't know how to police itself, and can never get in front of its problems and effectively solve them before they metastasize.
 
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Areski

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I've seen this video already few weeks ago. It's shocking & tasteless how far ISU let it go. They don't care anymore even about their own set of rules as long as someone can hide it well enough and has a name. Paranoic, farcical and even hillarious to watch when you compare her jumps with their own examples of bad technique and it looks so much alike but when you look at her scoresheets, victories and World Records they suggest a completely different conclusion.
 
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antmanb

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This is a real eye-opening video comparing Medvedeva's jumps to textbook jumps (as defined on the ISU's own website):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxJFjJ12DyY

Pretty much without exception her jumps are deficient in every way the ISU website says they should be receiving low GOE and deductions. And yet, it's a miracle--she has extraordinarily high GOE and no deductions. The video is a little biased and over the top at times but I think it makes many fair points. Some people in the comments call it the 'Russian fraud' but I'm interested to hear, what do you think?
I'm not even bothering with the rest of the video - the first jump they look at is a lutz, and the person uses a clip of Medvedev's flip :lol: if you aren't even bothering to put the right jump in the first clip - and you're so stupid you even show us the three turn entry into it and try to say it's her lutz then the rest of the video is clearly bogus.

Are the yunabots still so butt hurt about Sochi that they're trying to put Medvedeva down already?

I wonder who they used for the "textbook" triple loop in the video since they obviously can't use Yuna :rofl:
 

Areski

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I'm not even bothering with the rest of the video - the first jump they look at is a lutz, and the person uses a clip of Medvedev's flip :lol: if you aren't even bothering to put the right jump in the first clip - and you're so stupid you even show us the three turn entry into it and try to say it's her lutz then the rest of the video is clearly bogus.

Are the yunabots still so butt hurt about Sochi that they're trying to put Medvedeva down already?

I wonder who they used for the "textbook" triple loop in the video since they obviously can't use Yuna :rofl:

Yuna only stopped doing triple loop because of injuries and pain that this jump used to bring her. Otherwise when she was still doing triple loop (till 2006 consistently I believe) it was a textbook and consistent jump for her with better quality than for example Medvedeva's loop. There are many videos that prove that.

And no ... the first jump of this video is in fact Medvedeva's lutz attempt, so you're wrong.
 

antmanb

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Yuna only stopped doing triple loop because of injuries and pain that this jump used to bring her. Otherwise when she was still doing triple loop (till 2006 consistently I believe) it was a textbook and consistent jump for her with better quality than for example Medvedeva's loop. There are many videos that prove that.
:rofl: Yuna landed the loop exactly once in senior competition and no other times. Stop trying to rewrite history.

And no ... the first jump of this video is in fact Medvedeva's lutz attempt, so you're wrong.
You must be the creator of the video :rofl:

Here is the link to the video as they are discussing the "incorrect inside edge technique": https://youtu.be/DxJFjJ12DyY?t=86. Watch the skate - Medvedeva does a three turn into the jump - that's a flip not a lutz. If you can't even tell the jumps apart and the entrances into them you're not worth having a discussion with.
 
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alchemy void

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This youtube account is the, oh let's just say, QUEEN of these jump "analysis" videos. I always appreciate the super blurry pixelated close ups to illustrate her points.

It's shocking & tasteless how far ISU let it go. They don't care anymore even about their own set of rules as long as someone can hide it well enough and has a name
Exposes Med and faulty ISU judging alright
Guys, this analysis is so biased, I wouldn't exactly hold it up as the paradigm for how faulty and corrupt ISU judging is. There are better videos out there and several FSU members that can provide much more balanced and fair analysis, if you're actually looking to analyze proper jump technique.

If you're just looking to be instantly outraged, however, then this video definitely fits the bill. :p

Medvedeva's jump technique is far from perfect, and yes that lutz doesn't get a warning call enough, but it's still quite decent overall. In particular, her loop is stunning...if only that were included in this expose!
 

muffinplus

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I do think there is credence to Medvedeva having bad technique, that said Koola King is a known youtube troll - I mean all she posts are juvenile Yu Na Kim vs Medvedeva comparisons? Somewhat amusing, but childish.
 

kwanatic

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Evgenia's technique is not ideal (lots of upper body cranking which makes her look like she's muscling her rotations) but she lands the jumps and lands them often. That's what counts in the judges' eyes.

I'm completely over all of the inflation in the PCS, which has gone beyond all levels of ridiculous/ludicrous at this point, but I don't disagree with any of Evgenia's wins. Can't say the same for Alina though:shuffle:...I thought Marin Honda should have beaten her at junior worlds last year and Wakaba Higuchi definitely should have beaten her at Cup of China.
 
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aftershocks

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Okay, thanks for exposing the source as not reliable. Now I know that she's exaggerating and she's a Yunabot, so that sticks pins in a lot of what she's showing and what she's spliced together. But hmmm, Medvedeva is not exactly some model of perfection either. We can clearly see that Med has some faulty technique and pre-rotations, especially on the double-axel, which is already widely recognized as Med's weakest jump. Clearly (without even using this questionable video as a source), Yuna had some excellent technique, but the loop was her Nemesis. Yuna also had issues with lack of pointing her feet, and her laybacks did not have great position. But she was generally rather amazing and musical to a point, though not the best artist ever on the ice, partly due to her natural reserve.

Yes, I know many find Medvedeva soulful, lovely and consistent with very fast rotations. But I defy anyone to say that Med does not pre-rotate on some of her jumps. Even the great Mao Asada had jump technique flaws after achieving success in skating. Mao had the courage to acknowledge her flaws and to do the hard work of trying to breakdown and rebuild her jump technique in order to correct her flaws. I stand by my view (which is obvious) that the PCS of Med and Zagitova are OTT. They both can also work on developing more speed. While Sotskova looks to be a better jumper, she often skates like a robot with a terrified expression on her face.

Osmond and Daleman have the most speed and the more powerful jumps, although Osmond's consistency is lacking, and some in skating have been snooty toward Daleman because they look down on her body build, which is such a lame, nose-in-the-air conceit. Mirai has been inconsistent, but boy she landed that 3-axel yesterday with guts and courage, and she held it together to skate a gorgeous program. Bradie has been very consistent and precise technically, and so we'll see how things develop. I personally think U.S. ladies have been treated like a punching bag for so long, and they deserve more respect.

Meanwhile, I guess everybody got the memo to praise the Russian 'can-do-no-wrong ballerinas' to the high heavens, and then some. Johnny Weir, of course, never needs to see a memo in order to expound endlessly with annoying superlatives about his Russian diva sweethearts. :violin:

Give young Alina and Evgenia their due of course, but they shouldn't be beating everyone on tech and PCS by the margins the judges have been showering them with.
 
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briancoogaert

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Biased or not, Medvedeva's jumping technique is not very good. It's even dangerous for her hips and back. It's so sad judges put +3 on everything she does just because it's her. ;)
 

clairecloutier

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It does look like this YouTube poster used the wrong jump to evaluate Evgenia's triple Lutz. If you compare the Lutz in her video to the Lutz that Med does in last year's Worlds LP (second jump in that program), you can see the entries/takeoffs are different for the 2 jumps.

That said, the rest of the poster's examples look pretty valid to me. And yeah, it is a bit shocking how much Med's technique corresponds with the ISU's own examples of bad technique. :eek:

I actually have always wondered how Med manages to be so consistent in her jumps. Because yes, her technique has always looked suspect to me. There's a wildness to her arm/leg positions on her entries to jumps. And when you look at her landings, she's often pitched just slightly forward and to the right. Also her runout is often not great. Given the technique flaws, it's kind of amazing that she's as consistent as she is. Especially considering she also does the Rippon/Tano variations.
 

DreamSkates

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Hmmm....after reading comments I decided to not look at the video. I don't want to know any more than I already do about technique, which isn't much. It seems it would be more infuriating to watch anyone's programs and see they are getting inflated scores. I surely don't see Zagitova having high PC's. She's only 15. She should get half of what Kostner gets even if Kostner falls on every jump.
 

aftershocks

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Biased or not, Medvedeva's jumping technique is not very good. It's even dangerous for her hips and back. It's so sad judges put +3 on everything she does just because it's her. ;)
Yep, I shudder to think what some of these ladies will be going through physically years down the road with joint and back surgeries. :drama: I think the current scene in the ladies' discipline came about partly due to a combination of camouflaging weaknesses of the 'baby ballerinas,' and wielding vaunted Russian political clout. RusFed carefully set about building a Russian ladies juggernaut with purposeful calculation. Many of the Russian young ladies are talented but not always to the degree that their scores would attest.

There definitely needs to be more scrutiny and less over-praising and kowtowing, and a lot more questioning the belief that the Russian ladies are indomitable because they rotate fast and land those jumps by hook or by crook! :COP: Meanwhile, other talented ladies are always examined with a fine-tooth comb under a microscope. Reminds me of how the Shibs were being so heavily reviewed by tech panel in the FD, while B/S received all green boxes. Very fishy.
 
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aftershocks

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Because yes, her technique has always looked suspect to me.
Exactly. There are problems with the video and with the source, which does not negate the fact that Med has faulty technique on some of her jumps. That's probably one reason why she suffered her recent injury. Her body is slowly breaking down. But yeah, everyone must still bow down to her 'greatness.'

It's also a huge drama now with those who prefer Alina vs those who prefer Evgenia. :p Russian ladies are a dime a dozen. There will always be more coming down the pike. 'Hey big spender' Trusova is apparently next in line, and she seems very talented too, but again it's hard to tell how ladies that young will grow. Obviously RusFed has Med out front as the one they wish to be supported for the gold medal at these Games. The judges are so blinded, ready and willing to cooperate. But some of them might just go for the frou-frou backloaded posing of the exquisite Alina Zagitova, who looked so happy and exhausted with a fine sheen of sweat on her brow after her team event fp. She seemed to be saying to herself: 'I did it, I landed all my jumps.' And that she did, by hook or by crook, albeit without great speed or ice coverage. Sure Alina had the most difficult triple-triple, even tho' no triple axel. I doubt Alina and especially not Med would even try attempting a triple axel, since neither gets great height on their jumps.

I actually kind of miss Radionova somewhat, even with her hunched shoulders, windmilly arms and muscling of her jumps. For me, Radio has a much more interesting personality on the ice than the current ladies, especially Sotskova. :rolleyes: There might be some hope for Alina personality-wise too, if they stopped with all the trick gimmick camouflaging and allow her to explore and discover who she is on the ice. I really hate to see Kaori Sakamoto copying Medvedeva's pantomiming gimmick. Of the current Russian ladies, Polina Turskaya obviously has the most talent athletically and artistically, but her development was stalled by her unfortunate illness. I liked what I saw of Turskaya this season, except for the 'Med-pantomiming' shtick.
 

antmanb

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Biased or not, Medvedeva's jumping technique is not very good. It's even dangerous for her hips and back. It's so sad judges put +3 on everything she does just because it's her. ;)
I agree that Med has questionable technique on some of her jumps (I just hate the troll youtube videos more!).

But if you want to see why the judges give +2 and +3 to nearly all of her jumps just have a look at the GOE bullets. That's what Tutberidze has done and her students do transitions into and out of the jumps, usually have an arm in the air, and often have great speed and height through one or more phases of the jump which pretty much guarantees the positive GOE. See also Hanyu for the men's example.
 

aftershocks

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I do not see Med or Zagitova having a great deal of speed or height on their jumps. What they have is determination, talent, very quick rotations to counter average height, and yes all the tricks and camouflaging, with back-loading, and gratuitous arms overhead that have nothing to do with interpreting the music. But that latter PCS category is always scored out the wazoo with all the rest.

Given the technique flaws, it's kind of amazing that she's as consistent as she is.
Right. I would guess with the singular, exclusive, almost religious focus the Russian teenyboppers have, along with the Eteri training methods and rivalries (via the huge number of young ladies in the Russian pipeline), that might to some degree account for the amazing consistency. The rest apparently belongs to their individual personalities and motivations based on their backgrounds and upbringings.
 
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ToFarAwayTimes

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It does look like this YouTube poster used the wrong jump to evaluate Evgenia's triple Lutz. If you compare the Lutz in her video to the Lutz that Med does in last year's Worlds LP (second jump in that program), you can see the entries/takeoffs are different for the 2 jumps.

That said, the rest of the poster's examples look pretty valid to me. And yeah, it is a bit shocking how much Med's technique corresponds with the ISU's own examples of bad technique. :eek:

I actually have always wondered how Med manages to be so consistent in her jumps. Because yes, her technique has always looked suspect to me. There's a wildness to her arm/leg positions on her entries to jumps. And when you look at her landings, she's often pitched just slightly forward and to the right. Also her runout is often not great. Given the technique flaws, it's kind of amazing that she's as consistent as she is. Especially considering she also does the Rippon/Tano variations.
Yeah that's a flip not a lutz, but she is known for flutzing. Still a careless mistake by the video creator that detracts from his or her point, along with some editorial comments that quite obviously go too far.

But the comparison videos especially to the ISU demos on their own website are remarkable. Med consistently lands her jumps and I give her credit for that even if her form is unorthodox. She should be rewarded for doing so through the base value in the jumps only. To the extent her jumps are flawed (and they are) she should not be rewarded with high GOE and even deducted in points for edge calls or URs when applicable.

I liked this video because it points out the judges are not doing that and not even judging by the standards they promote on their own website.

It's a rigged farce.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 

lala

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This is a real eye-opening video comparing Medvedeva's jumps to textbook jumps (as defined on the ISU's own website):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxJFjJ12DyY

Pretty much without exception her jumps are deficient in every way the ISU website says they should be receiving low GOE and deductions. And yet, it's a miracle--she has extraordinarily high GOE and no deductions. The video is a little biased and over the top at times but I think it makes many fair points. Some people in the comments call it the 'Russian fraud' but I'm interested to hear, what do you think?
Koola King is sick. He is a maniac Yuna uber and maniac Med and all of Russian girls ( junior!) hater.
 

Areski

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Koola King is sick. He is a maniac Yuna uber and maniac Med and all of Russian girls ( junior!) hater.
This youtube account is the, oh let's just say, QUEEN of these jump "analysis" videos. I always appreciate the super blurry pixelated close ups to illustrate her points.




Guys, this analysis is so biased, I wouldn't exactly hold it up as the paradigm for how faulty and corrupt ISU judging is. There are better videos out there and several FSU members that can provide much more balanced and fair analysis, if you're actually looking to analyze proper jump technique.

If you're just looking to be instantly outraged, however, then this video definitely fits the bill. :p

Medvedeva's jump technique is far from perfect, and yes that lutz doesn't get a warning call enough, but it's still quite decent overall. In particular, her loop is stunning...if only that were included in this expose!
I actually think Medvedeva's loop is pretty good, by far her best jump. The way she springs off difficult entry and lands with ease actually impresses me. ;) And it's definitely not bad as Koola King paints it to be (for me what she points as wrong there is not objectively wrong when it comes to this jump itself) but her jumps technique overall is questionable to say the least, especially compared with the amount of praise and points she receives for that always created a dissonance in me even before watching & reading all these nitpicky analyses - like from the start back in 2015 when she burst up in Seniors. And yes after you contemplate little bit you can see that Koola King is quite biased & come across as repetitive or even obsessed with her Yuna deification and Medvedeva instant desacralization albeit still in my opinion nowhere as biased or nonsensical as lying (blind, conformist or corrupted?) FS commentators & judges. Let alone those fans of Medvedeva who can't accept or understand any criticism who treat her like the 8th wonder of the world. It's just too difficult to accept the truth for them or they don't understand figure skating at all.

And well when you're touted as the best skater ever or someone with such potential and when you win everything left and right with humongous advantage in points than it makes sense that people watch you closely and that people will start evaluating you independently of what ''ISU'' wants to make us believe.
 
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ToFarAwayTimes

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Koola King is sick. He is a maniac Yuna uber and maniac Med and all of Russian girls ( junior!) hater.
While I think it's fair to take issue with any source, I'll just say that I'm not interested in the content creator nor their other videos. My prerogative is to expose corrupt judging and hold competition organizers accountable. The skaters, coaches, trainers, choreographers, etc. and fans all deserve that much. Other people have made good counterpoints in this thread, @antmanb offered some reasons why she receives high GOE on her jumps which I don't agree with. Skaters with deficient jump technique should not be receiving high GOEs by covering them up with other nuances. Think of how aesthetically unattractive it is to watch a skater do a tano every single jump, over and over again. Once a program? Great. Over and over again and you see it receives many complaints because neutral observers don't enjoy watching repetition. And yet, they are there by design to excuse away contrived scoring bonuses, which makes it even more outrageous!

Even besides pre-rotations and edge calls, which you often need a replay monitor to review, the naked eye can easily discern other deficiencies in her jump quality. She decelerates into her jumps because of her poor technique. For me, it's very hard to watch. Sometimes she has to dig very deep and bend very hard at the knee to hold the landing. Which is great she landed the jump, but if we are going to really 'grade' a jump, there should be a difference in score between someone who lands a jump with a very deep noticeable knee bend and someone who does it effortlessly with flow. I think Evgenia is hit or miss in this regard, and when she gets a good landing I would like to see her rewarded; conversely, when she has to exert greater effort to hold a landing, I would like to see her score lower. But obviously that is not happening.
 
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muffinplus

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If the source is Koola King, anything that follows has no credibility whatsoever.
But don't you know1111????? Koola exposes ISU corruption. Just like Ashley Wagner at US Nationals (I still can't at that video and Koola King not knowing the difference between USFSA and ISU ):rofl:
 
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alchemy void

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I don't think most people here claim Medvedeva is the eighth wonder of the world and has the best jump technique ever, it's far from perfect, just like many other ladies, and many ladies world champions throughout the history of the sport.

Of course I'd rather watch Daleman or Osmond or Sakamoto or Tsurkaya or Tennell purely jump any day.

However, her jumping consistency, has been unparalled in the history of the sport. That consistency, combined with her ability to excel on many of the GOE bullet points, do justify most (*not* all, like the lutz) of her GOEs.

Skaters with deficient jump technique should not be receiving high GOEs by covering them up with other nuances. Think of how aesthetically unattractive it is to watch a skater do a tano every single jump, over and over again. Once a program? Great. Over and over again and you see it receives many complaints because neutral observers don't enjoy watching repetition. And yet, they are there by design to excuse away contrived scoring bonuses, which makes it even more outrageous!
We get it, you don't like tanos. :) :drama:

But if Medvedeva's jump technique is that severely deficient to the point she deserves 0 at a maximum, then MANY other ladies are in an identical position and really only a few skaters should ever get +2 or +3.

And well when you're touted as the best skater ever or someone with such potential and when you win everything left and right with humongous advantage in points than it makes sense that people watch you closely and that people will start evaluating you independently of what ''ISU'' wants to make us believe.
I mean, I totally get it, I do think Medvedeva is overscored to an extent.

But has there been anyone (aside from Zagitova) who has deserved to be close to Medvedeva this quad? Clearly Gold would have been (probably even defeating her) if not for consistency issues. Same goes for Osmond. If Osmond could do more than 5 triples per LP, she would be neck-and neck-with Med.
 
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antmanb

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I do not see Med or Zagitova having a great deal of speed or height on their jumps.
Have you seen them skate live? I've never seen Zagitova skate live, but her jumps look big on television compared to Medvedeva. I think it's unfair to lump Medvedeva and Zagitova together in the jumps just because they tano and have the same coach, because to my eye Zagitova has a stronger jump technique than Medvedeva.

I have seen Medvedeva live and she does have good height and pop on her jumps (particularly, but not exclusively, on the 3T on the back half of a combination), so I wouldn't take issue if that's one of the bullets the judges are applying.

While I think it's fair to take issue with any source, I'll just say that I'm not interested in the content creator nor their other videos. My prerogative is to expose corrupt judging and hold competition organizers accountable. The skaters, coaches, trainers, choreographers, etc. and fans all deserve that much. Other people have made good counterpoints in this thread, @antmanb offered some reasons why she receives high GOE on her jumps which I don't agree with.
This is where I take issue with your post. You claim to want to expose corrupt judging and hold them accountable, but to your own standards and not the ISU's written rules. The rule book is there for everyone to see - what garners an element positive GOE is written in black and white for coaches and skaters to see, and yet, what you disagree with is the rule book. That's fine - campaign to have the rule book change, offer alternative possibilities to what the rules should say, but you can't claim "corrupt judging" if the judges are applying those rules just because you disagree with them.

I personally find the loop harder than the flip. I don't cry "corrupt judging" because the judges give higher base mark to flips than loops even though I personally disagree.

If the judges were arbitrarily applying the unwritten unsanctioned rules of a fan instead of the ISU rules - that would be corruption, but applying the published rules and criteria of the ISU is obviously not.
 
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