Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

[VGThuy]

I remember reading a story that USAG and the coaches took the 1999 World team to a pasta restaurant in Tianjin, China and Donna Strauss of Parkettes told all the athletes to not finish their meals. Apparently, Kelli Hill interrupted and told Elise (her personal gymnast) that she could finish her meal. There was also one World Championship where Alicia Sacramone laughably told the camera "we're not eating!"

 

[sonsofanarchy]

I remember reading a story that USAG and the coaches took the 1999 World team to a pasta restaurant in Tianjin, China and Donna Strauss of Parkettes told all the athletes to not finish their meals. Apparently, Kelli Hill interrupted and told Elise (her personal gymnast) that she could finish her meal. There was also one World Championship where Alicia Sacramone laughably told the camera "we're not eating!"

It is gross the abuse of U.S gymnasts went on so long. I don't believe the Karolyis knowingly knew about the Nassar abuse, but they were sure guilty of some gross misconduct, along with much of the people below them. I do agree with what Valerie Kondos said though "I don't blame Marta, Marta didn't know any differently, and nobody even told her she was wrong. I blame that system that allowed and encouraged this to go on so long."

 

[dramagrrl]

I still remember the days when commentators would continuously broadcast the gymnasts' heights and weights during televised competitions. "She's only 4'6" and 67 pounds!", etc. (and even though that's not an exact quote, it's not much of an exaggeration - heights and weights of that nature were quite common in elite senior gymnastics in the 80s and 90s).

 

[VGThuy]

I still remember the days when commentators would continuously broadcast the gymnasts' heights and weights during televised competitions. "She's only 4'6" and 67 pounds!", etc. (and even though that's not an exact quote, it's not much of an exaggeration - heights and weights of that nature were quite common in elite senior gymnastics in the 80s and 90s).

There was that one former Australian gymnast who commentated endless gymnastics competitions in the 90s and 2000s and she would CONSTANTLY harp on gymnasts' weights and body sizes. She would call gymnasts "hefty" and say things like "it's nice to see gymnastics is open to girls of all shapes and sizes" or "too much bread and not enough meat in her diet".

 

[Erin]

There was that one former Australian gymnast who commentated endless gymnastics competitions in the 90s and 2000s and she would CONSTANTLY harp on gymnasts' weights and body sizes. She would call gymnasts "hefty" and say things like "it's nice to see gymnastics is open to girls of all shapes and sizes" or "too much bread and not enough meat in her diet".

Are you thinking of Monica Phelps? She fits that description, except she is British and not Australian. The last quote is definitely something I heard her say on a competition I watched recently, as now every time I eat bread I think of that quote! "Chunky" is one of her favourite words. Sometime has been making compilations of the "best" (i.e. worst) of Monica, which is up to 13 parts now - here is the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vKKJ2Kiquc

 

[VGThuy]

Are you thinking of Monica Phelps? She fits that description, except she is British and not Australian. The last quote is definitely something I heard her say on a competition I watched recently, as now every time I eat bread I think of that quote! "Chunky" is one of her favourite words. Sometime has been making compilations of the "best" (i.e. worst) of Monica, which is up to 13 parts now - here is the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vKKJ2Kiquc

Oh right, she is British. I don't know why I thought she was Australian. Maybe because I confused her with Brenda Noonan for no reason other than they have some similarity in sound if not content or substance. Or maybe they don't sound alike and I'm just misremembering that they do.

 

[sonsofanarchy]

So Tatiana Lysenko is Natalia Yurchenko?

She also thought Milosovici was Daniela Silivas at the 94 Olympics since she kept talking about all her golds at the 88 Olympics. She also referred to her being only 17 at the 94 worlds, which means she thought Milo/Silivas was 11 at the 88 Games.

That is just scraping the surface of some of the glaring mistakes she has made.

 

[Doggygirl]

Are you thinking of Monica Phelps? She fits that description, except she is British and not Australian. The last quote is definitely something I heard her say on a competition I watched recently, as now every time I eat bread I think of that quote! "Chunky" is one of her favourite words. Sometime has been making compilations of the "best" (i.e. worst) of Monica, which is up to 13 parts now - here is the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vKKJ2Kiquc

Really sad that this woman provided enough material for that many "episodes!"

 

[sonsofanarchy]

And funny to see Monica talking about chunky girls looking at the old photo of her doing gymnastics.

 

[Erin]

Really sad that this woman provided enough material for that many "episodes!"

Yes, she really should never have been allowed to go on for that long. Then again, the US had Al Trautwig for how many years? My nightmare scenario is the two of them commentating together.

That said, I do have to admit to cracking open a bottle of wine with a friend and binge-watching the entire "Best of Monica Phelps" playlist. I know it's objectively awful, but laughing at the awfulness was a good way to spend a quarantine afternoon.

And funny to see Monica talking about chunky girls looking at the old photo of her doing gymnastics.

Yes, that's my favourite part of the compilation videos.

 

[floskate]

I had no idea those Monica Phelps compilations existed! Wow she was something else...literally no filter. John Taylor who used to commentate with her was just as bad. I remember him commentating on the USSR team display after the Moscow Olympics - well you can judge for yourselves....

https://youtu.be/Wjv-VvxaI68?t=1906

 

[sonsofanarchy]

I am amazed such an international unknown ex gymnast can keep a job being that contemptible in the booth so long. I can see if she were a generalist like Al Trautwig, although I am amazed at him sometimes too, but a gymnastics color commentator expert? Just wow. And she mocks even World Champion gymnasts like Olaru and Gogean as having "no talent" yet the finest moments I can find of her is her showing the flexability and form in a leap of Kim Kelly:

 

[Erin]

I had no idea those Monica Phelps compilations existed! Wow she was something else...literally no filter. John Taylor who used to commentate with her was just as bad. I remember him commentating on the USSR team display after the Moscow Olympics - well you can judge for yourselves....

https://youtu.be/Wjv-VvxaI68?t=1906

Yes, I had a similar comment to a friend about John Taylor, that he could be just as bad as Monica. 1991 Worlds has some pretty offensive comments from both him and Monica. She’s probably the most offensive but he shares plenty of the blame. I think I lost it when they put a tiny Kim Zmeskal on the chunky list.

 

[VGThuy]

Here's a great video showing why gymnasts are much stiffer these days. Not only are they doing an incredible amount of difficulty to get a competitive D-score, and thus expending all their energy and stamina on the difficult tumbling and dance elements, but EVERYTHING is a deduction these days.

1985 Gymnastics, 2020 CoP/Execution {e-score} Comparison

Two routines from 1985 World Championships, judged by the lenient 1985-1988 Code of Points and the punishing current 2017-2030 Code of Points’ Execution Scor...

www.youtube.com

By executing elements in a straight, robotic manner, you're not choreographing built-in deductions.

 

[floskate]

Here's a great video showing why gymnasts are much stiffer these days. Not only are they doing an incredible amount of difficulty to get a competitive D-score, and thus expending all their energy and stamina on the difficult tumbling and dance elements, but EVERYTHING is a deduction these days.

1985 Gymnastics, 2020 CoP/Execution {e-score} Comparison

Two routines from 1985 World Championships, judged by the lenient 1985-1988 Code of Points and the punishing current 2017-2030 Code of Points’ Execution Scor...

www.youtube.com

By executing elements in a straight, robotic manner, you're not choreographing built-in deductions.

It's kind of horrifying that Omelianchik's iconic FX from 1985 would incur 2.1 in e-score deductions. This is exactly why I think they need to actually add in some kind of transition or connection component for integrating at least the dance elements into and out of some actual choreo. Because given the choice to watch Omelianchik's 1985 FX or Simone Biles from 2019 in Stuttgart with the 3/2 etc....well sorry Simone but Oksana would win that one every time!

 

[VGThuy]

It kind of shows the tech committees sort of don’t know what they’re doing either.

 

[Coco]

It kind of shows the tech committees sort of don’t know what they’re doing either.

Unfortunately, they know exactly what they are doing. They want to remove subjectivity. It's hard to objectively judge dance. I don't think it's as hard as the WTC will have us believe, but there you have it.

Also, Nellie Kim wasn't much of a natural dancer so magically....dance is no longer appreciated. She wasn't bad, but it was amazing how her style of moving is very similar to what is promoted by the current code.

Nelli Kim (USSR) Floor Event Finals 1980 Moscow Olympic Games

Most of my videos I DO NOT OWN THEY GO TO THE RESPECT OWNER OF THE MUSIC COMPANY OR IOC THANKS FOR WATCHING. DON'T FORGET TO LIKE!!! AND SUBSCRIBE. Twitter:h...

www.youtube.com

Nelli Kim FX EF 1976 olympics 10.00

Nelli Kim winnning the gold medal in the floor-ex.

www.youtube.com

 

[VGThuy]

Oh Nasty Nellie. Someone should make a documentary about her "revenge" on gymnastics. I also can never forget the way she gamed the high/low judging system to give Shushonova the win in 1988 and how she got off of her perch to yell at one judge after Nastia's 2008 Balance Beam routine. I imagined she commanded that the woman determining the D-score to give Nastia credit for that Onodi connection even though it was iffy. I mean I didn't mean that one so much because I wanted Nastia to win, but she probably could have won or had a good chance of winning without being given credit for that.

 

[canbelto]

Shushonova was a worthy AA winner though. Silivas was amazing but Shushonova was great too.

 

[VGThuy]

Shushonova was a worthy AA winner though. Silivas was amazing but Shushonova was great too.

I agree, but I still think Kim exploited the system to better ensure the result. Her score for Silivas' vault was so beyond ridiculous and she knew it would be thrown out so the next lowest score would be counted. She wasn't judging in good faith.

 

[Coco]

Torn on how to feel about it, because Silivas' beam score was ridiculous, too.

1988 OG Daniela Silivas BB AA

www.youtube.com

 

[sonsofanarchy]

Kim's vault score for Silivas was pretty meaningless though since she could have been easily justified giving only a 9.9, as two other judges did. Then her score and the result would still be exactly the same. FWIW I do not think Silivas deserved a 10 on vault, even under the lax scoring standards of the time. Shushunova's vault was CLEARLY better and even that wasn't truly a 10 or perfect vault, but compared to Silivas and all the other scores it certainly had to be a 10.

 

[VGThuy]

To me, it's like what we learn about anything. The result may be right, but if there's something wrong with the process or if someone abuses the process, it really sullies everything. Kim used her score to try to play the system and it was pretty blatant. The fact that she was able to move up the rankings to be in a true position of power shows how the FIG works.

Torn on how to feel about it, because Silivas' beam score was ridiculous, too.

1988 OG Daniela Silivas BB AA

www.youtube.com

I wouldn't have minded if Kim gave her a 9.8 for that depending on how everyone else was judged for similar performances. Of course I hear from gym fans that the 1988 Olympics was just a ridiculously judged event altogether. Mostly for incompetence rather than intentional screwing with the system a la Kim.

 

[sonsofanarchy]

To me, it's like what we learn about anything. The result may be right, but if there's something wrong with the process or if someone abuses the process, it really sullies everything. Kim used her score to try to play the system and it was pretty blatant. The fact that she was able to move up the rankings to be in a true position of power shows how the FIG works.



I wouldn't have minded if Kim gave her a 9.8 for that depending on how everyone else was judged for similar performances. Of course I hear from gym fans that the 1988 Olympics was just a ridiculously judged event altogether. Mostly for incompetence rather than intentional screwing with the system a la Kim.

Well where she made it blatant what she was doing was when she gave Silivas a 9.9 for the 2nd vault which was a worse vault. If she atleast gave that a 9.8 too it would have been a bit less blatant. She didn't even try to hide she was cheating. In fact she never does.

When she talks about her career it is clear she is bitter, despite all her success. She did great in Montreal, and got 3 golds just like Nadia, and also scored some of the first 10s seen in the Olympics, but due to Nadia and losing the AA to Nadia it is completely overlooked and barely noted. 78 worlds she overtook an out of shape Nadia but was eclipsed by her newcomer teammate Mukhina. 79 worlds she finally won the big AA title but it was totally overshadowed by all the WDs (including Nadia) and mistakes in the womens, and the amazing breakout performances for the U.S men at home. Then in Moscow she was outshone by her teammate, the surprise AA winner Davydova. I think that comes through in her judging, officiating, and lack of respect/regard for the sport she governs.

 

[danafan]

Silivas is my favourite gymnast of all time, but honestly a 9.8 was more of a fair score for that vault than a 10.0 that a few judges threw. And Kim made herself look foolish by giving a 9.9 to the second vault that was obviously worse. And the Romanian judge gave Shushunova a 9.9 on floor too.

The beam judging was bad. Shushunova got 9.925 with an obvious hop on the landing (two judges threw a 10!) and Silivas got 9.9 with two obvious wobbles and a hop. No one else would have got a score like that with that many errors....

 

[canbelto]

I think the 88-92 quads were both marred by the fact that it was too easy to get a 10.0 start value. For instance it's ridiculous that, say, Kim Zmeskal's beam was worth the same as Shannon Miller or Tatiana Gutsu's beam.

 

[sonsofanarchy]

Silivas is my favourite gymnast of all time, but honestly a 9.8 was more of a fair score for that vault than a 10.0 that a few judges threw. And Kim made herself look foolish by giving a 9.9 to the second vault that was obviously worse. And the Romanian judge gave Shushunova a 9.9 on floor too.

The beam judging was bad. Shushunova got 9.925 with an obvious hop on the landing (two judges threw a 10!) and Silivas got 9.9 with two obvious wobbles and a hop. No one else would have got a score like that with that many errors....

There were worse scores. Kersten got a 9.925 for this vault, meaning 2 judges actually gave a 10 to it (LOL). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGmOmK5HV0c Of course Kersten also got a 10 for her event final bars with a hop on the landing, losing the gold narrowly to Silivas only due to her 9.975 in team optionals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVPp5nKr398 Most overscored gymnast of the Games. The constant overscoring of Mrs. Dagmer Kersten cost the U.S the bronze as much as the controversial .5 penality taken, even with Kersten falling off beam in team optionals. The way she was being scored she probably would have medaled in the AA or atleast taken 4th place without her fall.

 

[VGThuy]

Speaking of Olympics, what happened to Boginskaya before the 1992 Games? She just seemed a bit off compared to 1991 and maybe even 1992 Worlds. She was enough off to be right outside the individual medals.

 

[sonsofanarchy]

Speaking of Olympics, what happened to Boginskaya before the 1992 Games? She just seemed a bit off compared to 1991 and maybe even 1992 Worlds. She was enough off to be right outside the individual medals.

A combination of things I think. Loss of confidence from her controversial loss to Zmeskal at the 91 worlds. She and her coaches felt she got just a few pounds overweight so she pushed hard to loss weight in 92, and ended up losing a bit too much. Soviet fed were pushing Gutsu more at that point.

She also felt a lot of internal pressure to win the AA since her bronze in the AA in Seoul which seemed like a great result as she wasn't established at that point, was such a dissapointment to her she commited suicide and she said many times she wanted to win the Olympic AA in honor of her late coach.

And finally others had just surpassed her difficulty to the extent it caught up to her with the judges and in her results, and she had to be letter perfect to come through. She had a mistake on beam in the AA and that was enough to push her off the podium there.

 

[VGThuy]

Thanks for the run-down. It always amazes me how one year can really make a difference either good or bad. The Olympics really can shake people's nerves or make people shine.

I was thinking a bit about gymnastics today, and one thing that would make me less annoyed with what it has become is if they brought compulsories back to really emphasize the A, B, and C skills with rhythm and fluidity. I would even make it a bigger part of the individual events somehow even though I'm sure that'll make competitions run too long. Even now I get fatigued by EFs during the Olympics and Worlds. One thing that sort of frustrated me watching back was how both compulsories and optionals counted for qualifications for AA and EFs but then the AA and EFs were only optional routines. Like before New Life it still counted, but I don't know if people like the idea of one performance and its score being used to win more than one medal these days, so I don't think a proposed idea of making team compulsory scores count in individual totals would fly today. With New Life, I couldn't hate on Amanar replacing Marinescu too much in Atlanta because although Marinescu qualified for the AA, the AA competition was only optionals and Amanar was like the first place finisher in the team optionals there (thanks to Lilia's OOB on FX) so it would have been bananas to leave Amanar out of the AA comp. It turned out to be a good decision. But I think back then, in New Life, compulsories should have played a bigger role in actually determining the results of individual competitions. But maybe that's just me.

Of course all of the above is just a fantasy. I don't think anyone actually competing or participating in elite gymnastics in any capacity (judging, coaching) wants it back, especially the smaller feds who think only concentrating on optionals helps make them more competitive.