From Russia with Love [#30]: If There Are Test Skate Videos, It Must Be Fall 2018

[rfisher]

Yes but at this rate there won't be anyone left standing (or healthy) by the next Olympics and the Japanese Skaters (men and women) will simply clean up.

It's in your interest to protect your athletes rather than keep sacrificing them to Eteri's grist mill.

Who knows who will be on the Olympic team three years from now! Injuries happen. Favorites falter. Who's to say the current Japanese ladies won't hit growth spurts. Marin Honda and Wakaba Higuchi are struggling right now. Will Kihira? Who knows? Will the current ladies be pushed out by 15 year olds 3 years from now? Maybe. Maybe not. The rigors of training are hard which is why many skaters don't continue to compete for two Olympic cycles. Some continue to push themselves, others don't. If you have no depth, you end up like Canada in men, ladies and pairs. If Uno or Hanyu continue with injuries, the Japanese men are in trouble. Will either be healthy in three years? Who knows?

 

[barbarafan]

Did Pogo come from there? No. Did Sotnikova? No. Did Kovtun? Plushenko? Yagudin? Lots of athletes have injuries. It's part of skating. In Russia, skaters who win, earn very well. I strongly suspect that's why parents and skaters are quite happy to go to their group. They've produced more winning skaters than Buianova, Rukivicin or Mishin. These skaters aren't really doing this for fun. If they were, they wouldn't put themselves through the rigors of training for competition. They want to be one of the elite winning skaters. Those who don't win, drop out of competition.

Some people act like the Trio pulled out the quads just for the senior nationals. They've been doing them on the JGP for two years. They'll do them at Junior worlds. Skating at senior nationals was just another competition for them. Kostornaia actually medaled at senior nationals last year as well. They'll do them next season at senior GP events. Or they won't. And, there are already a lot of younger skaters learning them and 3As as well. It's just what is happening in skating. Nobody is whining about the 13 year old boys doing quads. Will they whine if Gogoliev wins senior nationals in Canada? If Alysa Liu wins at US nationals? Orser has been crowing for two years about Gogo. Where's the angst?

Orser does not crow about Gogoliev. He had learned all his quads before starting to grow. He only did a few advanced notice competitions b4 this yr. Now that he is growing he is very limited in training jumps especially quads so his results at nationals will be dependent on how much he is growing and how much he is allowed to work. He will be competing as well with fully grown men who of course have better speed and ice coverage. I hope he does well.

 

[analia]

Let's not use the code word "healthy" which is so confusing. No athlete is "healthy". All of them have injuries. Let's keep it simple and say that Eteri's skaters shouldn't be training 7 hours a day from age 10. I'm going to say this, that myself and many kids I grew up with engaged in multiple hours a day activities practicing this and that. I personally hated it and gave up the first opportunity I got. Some kids didn't hate it and were actually unhappy that they couldn't move to a higher level due to a lack of talent or that they started too late etc.. Some other kids, for example my cousin who was actually very talented in sports but really disliked discipline and flunked out of everything her parents put her in. It's different for everyone. I doubt you can keep someone going at that rate if they don't want it badly themselves, in which there is absolutely no point and would in fact be cruel to tell them to stop.

Now in many other countries people can't afford to have this as an option. No coach will be there 7 hours a day and no rink will give you ice time as long as you want. That is not "keeping athletes healthy." It's in fact more dangerous and confidence-damaging to have skaters who don't have enough practice time to go out there and try to compete with those who do. I don't think Eteri has any weird technique. She just believes in repetition, which is a method some hate to the guts and some have no problem with.

 

[allezfred]

It won't happen, but at least push Euros to Feb so Russia can hold their Nationals in January.

No.

 

[Dobre]

I don't blame the athletes at all. I put the blame entirely on Team Eteri and the faulty technique they teach (and the extreme methods they use). I can’t think of a single athlete who has come out of that camp unscathed and healthy. I don't know how the Russian Federation can tolerate this (or the parents for that matter).

Tursynbaeva chose to return there after Orser's. I think it is fair to say that athletes are all unique individuals with different needs. And Moris is what? 23 or 24?

Who knows who will be on the Olympic team three years from now! Injuries happen. Favorites falter. Who's to say the current Japanese ladies won't hit growth spurts.

Kihira and Sakamoto probably will. It's more common than not.

But who's to say the younger athletes won't have their hands full competing against athletes that are struggling right now--once those athletes have time to adapt to growing up? Tuk, Osmond, Kostner, and Nagasu all came back to repass younger athletes over time. And who's to say the younger athletes of today won't go through the same adjustment, struggle, and then themselves be more competitive in the future?

It definitely seems wise not to overreact. We saw with the guys over the last year that adding the lutz late in their careers backfired on Kovtun and placed Hanyu's run at the Olympics in danger. Ultimately, he won with the jumps he had before. Meanwhile, Nagasu and Tuktamysheva returned to the competitive scene by upping the ante and commiting to the axel. Athletes have to make the right decision for themselves. For their abilities, their health, and their status as competitors. Not by trying to be someone else but by maximizing their own strengths and tackling their own weaknesses.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Elena Chaikovskaya, head of the Coach Council, is expressing some of her views opposite to Tarasova’s agenda. I am very glad that some one in a high rank is standing up to her, as TAT uses official platforms to push and impose her strictly personal agenda and interests, often very petty, ego related and destructive to the sport, and someone has to stop her (without diminishing her past accomplishments).

Translation (of 2 segments) from article’s text: https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070033683.html
“Zagitova is very strong. Her performance in the FS seems like a temporary set back. I’ve seen her during practices and warm ups, she was superb, beautiful and reliable/steady. Assume it was temporary set back.

In regards to Medevedva, it’s hard for me to say something. There is just one question: what happened to that divine Medvedeva we loved so much, where did she go? Instead we have a completely different type of athlete, one that has not yet found herself in the new programmes and in her new self-evaluation. I see confusion (disorientation), technical faults/mishaps. Perhaps it is age related, that’s what I talked about before. Yet, her charisma, impressive lightness and, if you will, charminess (attractiveness), all have perished. That is too bad, because she is also one of the great figure skaters.”

Translation (of 1 segment) from article’s text (opposite view to Tarasova’s sudden support of age increase).
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1070002593.html

“To introduce age increase (limits) for domestic competition for us is not recommended. We are motors of progress in ladies single skating, we will not hold anyone back, our results are impressive, (we make) great discoveries, there fore (we will) proceed as intended”.

 

[dinakt]

Orser has been crowing for two years about Gogo. Where's the angst?

I have seen plenty of angst on FSU about Gogolev learning quads too early. I've seen the same angst over Nathan Chen. And it is a legitimate concern, even though it would pay off for some skaters. It would be weirder if people just blindly cheered on.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I just don't get why Tarasova still has so much influence.

 

[Madison25]

Elena Chaikovskaya is coming from the same club as Eteri (Sambo), and from previous interviews one can see that she is very much pro-Eteri. Not surprising, almost everyone has an agenda and different interests in Russian figure skating.
On the other hand, I don t see such a gap between Stanislava, Sofya and Evgenia this year. They are more or less at the same level. Alina had a horrible competition at RusNat, she bombs from time to time. She even made more mistakes than Evgenia during this competition, but her body of work in the first half of the season is better and recommends her to be in the team.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Elena Chaikovskaya is coming from the same club as Eteri (Sambo), and from previous interviews one can see that she is very much pro-Eteri. Not surprising, almost everyone has an agenda and different interests in Russian figure skating.
On the other hand, I don t see such a gap between Stanislava, Sofya and Evgenia this year. They are more or less at the same level. Alina had a horrible competition at RusNat, she bombs from time to time. She even made more mistakes than Evgenia during this competition, but her body of work in the first half of the season is better and recommends her to be in the team.

Fact of the matter is that Evgenia took herself out of contention with her SP performance and LP wasn’t perfect either. As a result, she finished behind Konstantinova and Samodurova. She should have been behind many others as well. As for being near Sofia, this year’s performance are better than Evgenia’s in the two GP; she even reached GPFs. On top that Sofia’s nationals was also better than Evgenia.

Evgenia is an excellent athlete but she has done nothing this year to prop up her score like this. As for Elena Chaikovskaya’s comments, it seems they are having to defend their decision in light of comments from Tarasova, after all that came first.

 

[Ka3sha]

As for Elena Chaikovskaya’s comments, it seems they are having to defend their decision in light of comments from Tarasova, after all that came first.

But the point is that there weren't any comments from TAT regarding Euros team and Stasia/Sofia's undeserving spots on that team. She said that the Fed could have named Evgenia for Unisersiade and that there should be some kind of a test skate before Worlds - that's it.

Don't take someone's summary fiction at face value.

 

[barbarafan]

I have seen plenty of angst on FSU about Gogolev learning quads too early. I've seen the same angst over Nathan Chen. And it is a legitimate concern, even though it would pay off for some skaters. It would be weirder if people just blindly cheered on.

Stephen is not an everyday occurance. He has extreme natural talent which is why he picks up these jumps so quickly. His spring and quick rotations meant he conquered everything shown in short order. In order to keep him stimulated and as quads were going on around him they let him try in a harness. In short time there was no reason for a harness. This is all before he reached the dangerous time of growing. He was really little to start and has now grown quite a bit and during his spurts he is not allowed to quad and often not jump at all (anytime there is any soreness) and at all times his jumping is limited. So he is just maintaining and adjusting each time he has grown so it is hit or miss when he competes. Meantime he works on his skating skills and spins etc and works out with specific exercises for muscles needed to jump with proper technique. At all times his is monitored carefully by a team who put his health and future first.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

The ladies skating situation in Russia is truly nuts. And not in a good way.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

The ladies skating situation in Russia is truly nuts. And not in a good way.

 

[Vash01]

The ladies skating situation in Russia is truly nuts. And not in a good way.

How terrible that they are winning medals at worlds and Olympics! (Sarcasm)

 

[zebraswan]

The nuts are posting from inside the message board. Well, mostly just one very unstable person with an obvious agenda doing a lot of "selective" reporting (ie, only whatever fits that individual's narrative)...and it's giving me a headache.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

How terrible that they are winning medals at worlds and Olympics! (Sarcasm)

Vash, come on. Yes, they are winning. But at what cost to the girls themselves? Have any of them had sustainable success? Lipnitskaya (eating disorder), Sotnikova (injuries, couldn't compete with the next wave), Medvedeva (injuries, unclear if she can compete with the younglings), Zagitova (already being pushed out by juniors)... That's a long list. Fleeting success quickly replaced by misery. Senior skaters lose their jumps as soon as they hit puberty (because duh, they don't have a solid technique to begin with). Not to mention they are mentally exhausted from fighting the never-ending waves of 12-13-14-15 year old phenoms. And the cycle doesn't end. It's getting to the point where Russia can't send a solid team to the Worlds. Yet, Tut is one exception. And there are reasons why: good technique, coach who cares about her as a human being, and not having to share the ice with her upcoming replacements on a daily basis. No I don't think the situation at Sambo is healthy, and I think it will really hurt the Russians in the coming years.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Vash, come on. Yes, they are winning. But at what cost to the girls themselves? Have any of them had sustainable success? Lipnitskaya (eating disorder), Sotnikova (injuries, couldn't compete with the next wave), Medvedeva (injuries, unclear if she can compete with the younglings), Zagitova (already being pushed out by juniors)... That's a long list. Fleeting success quickly replaced by misery. Senior skaters lose their jumps as soon as they hit puberty (because duh, they don't have a solid technique to begin with). Not to mention they are mentally exhausted from fighting the never-ending waves of 12-13-14-15 year old phenoms. And the cycle doesn't end. It's getting to the point where Russia can't send a solid team to the Worlds. Yet, Tut is one exception. And there are reasons why: good technique, coach who cares about her as a human being, and not having to share the ice with her upcoming replacements on a daily basis. No I don't think the situation at Sambo is healthy, and I think it will really hurt the Russians in the coming years.

THAT! And is it not just Eteri that is having this result? It seems to me like trying to build a house without a foundation. Doesn't work out very well in the long run.

I watched Zags at the Russian Nationals (again). Aside from the falls it was really disappointing. I kept asking myself if she knew (or cared) that there was music playing. I hope she can get things worked out for herself.

 

[Flora]

Vash, come on. Yes, they are winning. But at what cost to the girls themselves? Have any of them had sustainable success? Lipnitskaya (eating disorder), Sotnikova (injuries, couldn't compete with the next wave), Medvedeva (injuries, unclear if she can compete with the younglings), Zagitova (already being pushed out by juniors)... That's a long list. Fleeting success quickly replaced by misery. Senior skaters lose their jumps as soon as they hit puberty (because duh, they don't have a solid technique to begin with). Not to mention they are mentally exhausted from fighting the never-ending waves of 12-13-14-15 year old phenoms. And the cycle doesn't end. It's getting to the point where Russia can't send a solid team to the Worlds. Yet, Tut is one exception. And there are reasons why: good technique, coach who cares about her as a human being, and not having to share the ice with her upcoming replacements on a daily basis. No I don't think the situation at Sambo is healthy, and I think it will really hurt the Russians in the coming years.

What is unfortunate is that we don't get to see these skaters develop into beautiful, mature skaters. Imagine if Lip and Sot had maintained their jumps while developing their artistry. If Lip had better technique and could've kept her jumps, she would be beautiful. Near the end of her career, her stroking was getting better and she had more power. I think Sot also would be gorgeous if she were able to stick around. They would be amazing skaters. Even Zag who I don't enjoy atm could be so much better if she could work on her skating skills and posture.

 

[Tinami Amori]

What is happening to Dmitry Aliyev? He has always been unstable but this year he's been really not at his best.

There is an interview with additional info, where he makes a ref. to "death of a close person".
https://www.sovsport.ru/figure/arti...poslevkusie-ot-prokata-kak-syiroy-farsh-syest
Translation of 2 paragraphs.

Impressions after skate
- My aftertaste? as if i ate raw meat.. It's a disaster. (i) failed at the National Championship. Considering the training (i) went through, it should not have happened, i should not have skated like this (so poorly). It's a difficult season, and one must learn to handle.... Sorry, it's too hard for me to speak. So many thoughts crawl in to my mind. One must learn to cope under any circumstances, be it a death of the dear one, or in happiness.

Reasons for failure
- One should not get distracted by anything, one must remain himself. I look at myself from both sides, when reviewing my performances. I see that it is not "me" who is skating. (not my true self). This is sport. Maybe i am tired. I have not had a vacation for 7 years. Or six, to be exact. Since i moved to Sankt Petersburg, i have not had a beach vacation (have not gone to the sea). But i am not hanging my hands (giving up). I never plan to give up. I am going to move forward.

 

[babayaga]

THAT! And is it not just Eteri that is having this result? It seems to me like trying to build a house without a foundation. Doesn't work out very well in the long run.

I watched Zags at the Russian Nationals (again). Aside from the falls it was really disappointing. I kept asking myself if she knew (or cared) that there was music playing. I hope she can get things worked out for herself.

She was in pain.

 

[mjb52]

The psychological dynamic feels sort of like Kwan vs. Lipinski but with like 30 Lipinski's. It's a tough one. It seems so unprecedented in skating to have prodigies coming along in such high numbers that I don't think even the Russian Federation itself knows how to deal with it. I would like to see the "older" skaters develop too but I don't want to see the younger skaters artificially held back either. And I know it feels like harping on the same point, but we've seen so many young phenoms burn out in American skating due to injuries and eating disorders, it sometimes seems strange to see this the way Eteri is treated as though she invented these problems. I know the scale is part of what makes it so worrisome though.

 

[Bigbird]

There is an interview with additional info, where he makes a ref. to "death of a close person".
https://www.sovsport.ru/figure/arti...poslevkusie-ot-prokata-kak-syiroy-farsh-syest
Translation of 2 paragraphs.

Impressions after skate
- My aftertaste? as if i ate raw meat.. It's a disaster. (i) failed at the National Championship. Considering the training (i) went through, it should not have happened, i should not have skated like this (so poorly). It's a difficult season, and one must learn to handle.... Sorry, it's too hard for me to speak. So many thoughts crawl in to my mind. One must learn to cope under any circumstances, be it a death of the dear one, or in happiness.

Reasons for failure
- One should not get distracted by anything, one must remain himself. I look at myself from both sides, when reviewing my performances. I see that it is not "me" who is skating. (not my true self). This is sport. Maybe i am tired. I have not had a vacation for 7 years. Or six, to be exact. Since i moved to Sankt Petersburg, i have not had a beach vacation (have not gone to the sea). But i am not hanging my hands (giving up). I never plan to give up. I am going to move forward.

He seems so stressed. I hope he can take some time away from it all to calm his nerves and just begin to heal. He just doesn't look like himself.

 

[Tinami Amori]

What is unfortunate is that we don't get to see these skaters develop into beautiful, mature skaters. Imagine if Lip and Sot had maintained their jumps while developing their artistry. If Lip had better technique and could've kept her jumps, she would be beautiful. Near the end of her career, her stroking was getting better and she had more power. I think Sot also would be gorgeous if she were able to stick around. They would be amazing skaters. Even Zag who I don't enjoy atm could be so much better if she could work on her skating skills and posture.

Lip had issues in her personality and with her mother, other than skating/eating/athletics. She spent a year/season with Urmanov in Sochi, without her mother, and "her luggage" remained even there. Sotnikova (Buianova's pupil, not Eteri's) did not make a full return after winning Olympics for reasons other than injuries (there was one with her ankle (?), but very standard in skating). Zag is still skating, as far as i know, and no plans to quite....

Many skaters all over the world have serious injuries as juniors and then unable to transfer into senior ranks. We just don't hear about them, because prior to quitting they did not make it to the top. For example a big hope US skater, Naomi Nari Nam: (from wiki)
"John Nicks coached her in Costa Mesa, California.[5] Signs of tendonitis in her hip began appearing in July 2000; a few months later, she heard a pop as she practiced a triple Lutz jump and was subsequently diagnosed with a fracture in her growth plate.[6] After healing, she went to the 2001 U.S. Championshipsbut had to withdrew due to hip pain which re-surfaced a day before the competition. After receiving a diagnosis of torn cartilage in her hip joint, she underwent surgery at Holy Cross Hospital in Florida.[6]"

She did not make a successful return to singles, tried Pairs, and ended up with more injuries, and quite.
"On August 24, 2007, Nam underwent surgery to remove a bone spur and to repair torn cartilage in her right hip.[9][10] She was on crutches for eight weeks and returned to the ice on October 19.[9] As a result, Nam/Leftheris withdrew from their Grand Prix assignments, 2007 Skate America and 2007 Cup of China.[10] They placed 7th at the 2008 U.S. Championships. Nam announced her retirement from competitive skating on October 10, 2008, citing her recurrent hip injury.[11]"

And then we have a wave of mature, fully developed, transferred into seniors and adulthood, a wave of North American top lady skaters with eating disorders, depressions, and temporary loss of self worth and direction in life... Gold, Wagner, Daleman... That is certainly a concern as well..

Don't take someone's summary fiction at face value.

Just because something is not "recorded", does not mean it did not happen...

 

[Vash01]

The psychological dynamic feels sort of like Kwan vs. Lipinski but with like 30 Lipinski's. It's a tough one. It seems so unprecedented in skating to have prodigies coming along in such high numbers that I don't think even the Russian Federation itself knows how to deal with it. I would like to see the "older" skaters develop too but I don't want to see the younger skaters artificially held back either. And I know it feels like harping on the same point, but we've seen so many young phenoms burn out in American skating due to injuries and eating disorders, it sometimes seems strange to see this the way Eteri is treated as though she invented these problems. I know the scale is part of what makes it so worrisome though.[/QUOTE

What other posters are complaining about bothers me. Do they want to tell talented young skaters that they are not allowed to compete just because there are too many of them? FS is a sport. Athletes should be allowed to compete. Some will make it. Some wont. Some will be injured. Some could have psychological issues. That is the nature of competitive sports. We see skaters have issues in other countries too.

Why is Eteri being made into a villain? BEcause her skaters are winning? FS , like gymnastics, is a sport for young athletes. Nobody complains about gymnasts that last only one Olympic cycle, or less. As usual, there are exceptions. In FS Jumps are the name of the game and unless the rules limit the jump difficulty or the number of jumps, it will favor younger athletes. We will see injuries, and we see injuries in other sports too.

If skaters in the US or Canada were winning all the time, with a very deep pool of juniors, I am not sure we will be hearing so many complaints, but Russians are considered evil here, right from the start. If they are winning, something must be wrong, based on the comments i am reading.

I love watching the juniors with their amazing ability. I enjoy the present moment. Some may develop into long term skaters. The problem is not with Eteri or Russia. It is the deep pool of talent right now that keeps pushing the envelope and makes it difficult for anyone to stay on top for a long time. I have mentioned in another post that we see skaters like Kostner or Yu na Kim around for many years because they don't have internal competition so they compete at worlds for many years. It is not Russia's fault that they have a huge supply of talent internally.

In any case, things go in cycles. They could change in 5-10 years and we may see another country have a huge supply of talent. Japan is already there, and right now it is stronger than Russia. If this happens in the US, we won't hear any complaints, I am sure.

 

[Sylvia]

@Vash01, you're missing a ] to close the quote tag in your post above.

BTW, if anyone has any notable news articles to share, feel free to post in the new thread I've started: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/from-russia-with-love-31-winter-to-spring-2019.105022/