From Russia with love [#23]: Spring/Summer 2016

[hanca]

Well, that's my point. Kustarova does not seem to me any worse than Zhulin. Sure, she can't make her students do the final step up to be on worlds podium, but neither can currently any other coach within Russia. Kustarova's students have good seasons and bad seasons just like Zhulin's students. Why is Zhulin considered so great and Kustarova so bad? I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Kustarova is not as bad as some posters like to make her, and Zhulin is not as great otherwise he wouldn't miss such a chance at the last Olympics.

 

[kosjenka]

Zhulin coached World and Olympic champions.
Kustarova never had a truly successful senior team. they all had to leave her to reach better level.

 

[hanca]

Zhulin coached World and Olympic champions.
Kustarova never had a truly successful senior team. they all had to leave her to reach better level.

True, but when was the last time Zhulin's couple medalled at worlds (or Olympics)? I am not denying that he used to be great, but it seems like a long time ago. I was talking about Zhulin and Kustarova's current results, not something that happened in the past.

 

[Katha]

Well, that's my point. Kustarova does not seem to me any worse than Zhulin. Sure, she can't make her students do the final step up to be on worlds podium, but neither can currently any other coach within Russia. Kustarova's students have good seasons and bad seasons just like Zhulin's students. Why is Zhulin considered so great and Kustarova so bad? I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Kustarova is not as bad as some posters like to make her, and Zhulin is not as great otherwise he wouldn't miss such a chance at the last Olympics.

Some of it is image and clout. Zhulin has his own successful career as an ice dancer to back him up, he's coached N/K to Olympic gold (though I think the very safe programs he gave them starting with 2004 kinda wasted their potential as performers and skaters a bit...they could sell a lot of nonsense and they needed to because not everything he gave them was top-notch, some of it was downright awful), though Navka was a talent for the ages (and Kostomarov wasn't so bad either IMO) and it was the beginning of COP, so knowing how to deal with the judging system ten years ago doesn't necessarily translate to expertise with it now.

Personally, I think after N/K it gets spottier for him. He did mostly well with P/B. The 2010 junior FD for I/K was brilliant, I wasn't quite convinced with their senior programs in 2011. BobSol had nice programs in 2013 (and for me have visibly improved since leaving Kustarova), then he really, really, really blew their Olympic season. And yeah, that was all on him. This year Anna Karenina was nice and I appreciated that he said they would have probably been 5th,6th at Worlds. I thought that was realistic of him, IMO absolute best case scenario would have been 4th, and worst case scenario 7th (Worlds in Boston, H/D with home crowd advantage...also possible, they were quite close scores-wise in their GP events). So as you say, they're pretty much in that zone around 6th that none of the Russian pairs seem to be able to rise above since 2011 (with 2013 for B/S and Sochi for I/K as exceptions).

And he gives a good interview and knows how to sell himself, something where Kustarova isn't so hot IMO. She tries from time to time, but it's not her forte. Also, her camp has obvious issues. Foibles that all the skaters she produces have etc. She also hasn't had one big senior champion pair yet, that makes a difference. She's not been able to get anyone into medals at senior Worlds.

 

[Ka3sha]

To do a great job with a team, Zhulin, IMO, should be 'in love' with this team, he should be really interested in them - N/K definitely inspired him, I/K in juniors, P/B - that's it. Now, I have a feeling, that he is 'in love' with Z/G, it is his team, he feels them
He is not a coach, he is more like a creator, he needs an inspiration.

 

[Xela M]

To do a great job with a team, Zhuyin, IMO, should be 'in love' with this team, he should be really interested in them - N/K definitely inspired him, I/K in juniors, P/B - that's it. Now, I have a feeling, that he is 'in love' with Z/G, it is his team, he feels them
He is not a coach, he is more like a creator, he needs an inspiration.

To be fair to Zhulin though, B&S are not a great team (and I love them!). He has brought out the best in them, improved Bobrova's issues by A LOT, but they are just not OGM-caliber and never will be under any coach (although Soloviev is an amazing ice dancer imo). Zhulin cannot perform miracles. He polishes his teams as best he can, but there's only so much a coach can do.

The Olympic season was a real mess though and I still don't understand why it happened.

As for Kustarova... How can she ever produce a senoir champion if all her teams have such terrible basics?! She's also awful at packaging her teams and should take an intensive course from Zoueva on that subject.

 

[Dobre]

To do a great job with a team, Zhulin, IMO, should be 'in love' with this team, he should be really interested in them - N/K definitely inspired him, I/K in juniors, P/B - that's it.

He did very, very well by Nazarova & Nikitin with their FD last year. And Anna Karenina, as well as B&S's SD in 2013, were both lovely. I find this very impressive because Bobrova & Soloviev, Pechalat & Bourzat, Ilinykh & Katsalapov--none of these great programs are similar. The teams are unique & the programs are unique. I think this gives him a lot of cred in my book.

I didn't care for Zhulin as a skater. I'm on the fence about him as a coach. He makes good decisions & lousy ones, like most human beings. (And, no, I don't think we can blame him entirely for 2014. At least, I read that TPTB made him change the music for B&S's FD before it ever reached the Grand Prix).

But as a choreographer, he occasionally delves into genius. And most human beings never reach that point.

 

[Ka3sha]

He did very, very well by Nazarova & Nikitin with their FD last year.

Yes, I forgot to mention them

@Xela M, I mostly agree with your post, buy what do you mean by 'terrible basics' for all Kustarova's students?
In my view, they do have good basics - they can actually skate, their knees are working; she is great in 'making' couples, make them skating in synch, her girls always are very flexible and her pairs do have difficult lifts (even if these lifts are far from being the most beautiful).
That's said - she is probably the best coach for juniors but senior skaters should run away from her..

 

[altai_rose]

Still sad about the way Anna was treated

I think Elena Ilinykh feels the same way -- here's her message of support (Elena and ?Anna)

 

[MarieM]

Zhulin had nothing to do with the destroying of his original idea for B&S program. Tarassova was all behind this mess and I am not even sure why Zhulin agreed to destroy that program. Anyway, it was always going to be Elena and Nikita for the big push IMO.

Zhulin can do wonders with mediocre skaters, but Platov IMO is the best at this. Sad he doesn't coach more top teams.
All Zhulin and Oleg need is to really believe in you. If they don't, it shows.

 

[Xela M]

Zhulin had nothing to do with the destroying of his original idea for B&S program. Tarassova was all behind this mess and I am not even sure why Zhulin agreed to destroy that program. Anyway, it was always going to be Elena and Nikita for the big push IMO.

Zhulin can do wonders with mediocre skaters, but Platov IMO is the best at this. Sad he doesn't coach more top teams.
All Zhulin and Oleg need is to really believe in you. If they don't, it shows.

I do agree that I&K would have won Bronze in Sochi skating the way they did regardless of how B&S skated and I don't think the overall placements could have been changed, but B&S could have had a less embarrassing showing

 

[quiqie]

To answer the question about the last time Zhulin's students medalled at Worlds - it was in 2013, not eons ago.
Mozgov has a quite a long history of leaving his partners for greener pastures, and Anna knew that, so one would think that it should't be such a surprise to her.
Kustarova/Alekseeva, in turn, have a long history of being left for greener pastures, and it seems that this time (maybe I/Z leaving was the last straw), they decided to make a preemptive move.
Didn't Volkov leave Zhulin's group to work with Gorshkov?

 

[Ananas Astra]

Wasn't it the other way round with Volkov? I remember him being at Junior Worlds 2007 with Gorshkov's group.

 

[rfisher]

Sotnikova's SP is by Tchernyshev and is almost ready. He is also doing Kovtun's SP

I'm going to pretend I don't care about Adelina this season and hope that fools the skate Gods.

I have a real soft spot for Kovtun. He's my Russian Brezina. Pity Kovtun has won so many Euro medals because he's 100% #teamtrainwreck material otherwise. Hopefully, Peter T has given him something that will inspire the boy.

 

[Karpenko]

Here's a new jump combination by Evgenia Medvedeva:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BFADt47Ia4z/?hl=en

Good girl!! okay, now I'm a fan of hers. She is so damn good. Thank you for listening!

 

[Spun Silver]

Good grief. I still want to know why 3-3-3s are not allowed in competition.

I hope Evgenia reads the bio of Tara Lipinski soon.

 

[Kasey]

Holy cow that girl is a jumper!

 

[Karpenko]

3/3/3's are allowed, I think it's only the 3/3/3/3 that isn't allowed. I wouldn't be surprised if she does 3sal/3loop/3toe next year instead of the 2a/2toe/2toe.

It's the nicest 3loop on a 3/3 of any sort that I've seen, she really is a total phenom. The reaction was also cute. Yay her, now onto the program packaging...

 

[alchemy void]

That combo is crazy.

Unfortunately, without a 3axel, I can't think of much points advantage for doing a 3/3/3 due to Zayak rule and the required 7 jumping passes. She'd max out on triples and 2axels after 6 passes, and the highest scoring element she could do for the seventh pass is 2lutz2loop.

I haven't done the math on this but I doubt this hypothetical layout for Medvedeva would garner her much of a base TES advantage over what she did this past season:

3flip3toe
3lutz
--bonus--
3sal3loop3toe
3flip
2axel
2axel
2lutz2loop

 

[Karpenko]

I foresee a 4salchow from her, if you put the opening 3lutz at the end then bam. 3sal/3loop/3toe could be a warmup for the quad Sal to follow. I'll be shocked if she's not training a 4sal this summer. I keep reminding myself that Sasha Cohen has landed them.

Not too meh out there anymore, Evgenia

 

[Kasey]

I'm just happy to finally have a female skater I really enjoy watching again!

 

[Spun Silver]

That combo is crazy.

Unfortunately, without a 3axel, I can't think of much points advantage for doing a 3/3/3 due to Zayak rule and the required 7 jumping passes. She'd max out on triples and 2axels after 6 passes, and the highest scoring element she could do for the seventh pass is 2lutz2loop.

I haven't done the math on this but I doubt this hypothetical layout for Medvedeva would garner her much of a base TES advantage over what she did this past season:

3flip3toe
3lutz
--bonus--
3sal3toe3loop
3flip
2axel
2axel
2lutz2loop

Wouldnt you think the IJS should score a 3-3-3 differently than a 3-3? More than just adding the three jumps together. And if that happened, more people would do them, and perhaps the IJS should adjust the zayak rule slightly (specifically to encourage 3-3-3s).

We never see 3-3-3s in competition and I wonder if they would be an alternative to the quad for people like Jason Brown. I especially wonder about 3-3-3s when I hear people ETA: LIKE @Karpenko speculating about when women will do quads. Not sure women's bodies can handle it. Like the 3A -- you see it occasionally from women but will it ever be standard? Whereas 3-3-3s seem a bit more doable (Carolina and Shizuka did them in practice too and surely Mao and Miki did as well).

 

[Karpenko]

I was against her doing the 3/3/3/3 because of the wear on her body, but since she's doing 3/3/3 with loops in the middle now, my productivity rating for her/Eteri has skyrocketed.

I think if she can get a 4S with a > at minimum, it would be worth it right now because of where she's at score-wise to distance herself. She might need a 3/3/3 and quad if Mao or Tuktamysheva (or Mirai Nagasu. Yes we can) have a clean 3axel SP and beat her by a few points. I could see Med doing a 4sal over a 3axel right now, the technique difference she's got between those two jumps is amazing.

 

[Spun Silver]

3/3/3/3??? Who is crazy, Med or you?

 

[Karpenko]

Med was training 3/3/3/3 before, there's clips of it posted in the thread. And of course I'm crazy it's best to own it and use it to your advantage though. Doing the 3/3/3/3 in practice was sort of pointless IMO. I was referring to her training the quad and a 3/3/3 instead of a 3/3/3/3 that she can't compete under COP.

 

[Marco]

It appears she is training the 3sal3loop to replace the 3sal3toe for some extra BV for repeating the loop instead of the toe. There's no COP benefit of doing a 3/3/3 since she doesn't have a 3axel and is already doing 2 2axels.

 

[Vash01]

That combo is crazy.

Unfortunately, without a 3axel, I can't think of much points advantage for doing a 3/3/3 due to Zayak rule and the required 7 jumping passes. She'd max out on triples and 2axels after 6 passes, and the highest scoring element she could do for the seventh pass is 2lutz2loop.

I haven't done the math on this but I doubt this hypothetical layout for Medvedeva would garner her much of a base TES advantage over what she did this past season:

3flip3toe
3lutz
--bonus--
3sal3loop3toe
3flip
2axel
2axel
2lutz2loop

I hate doubles other than the 2A, and I am not a fan of back to back 2A's. I think 3s3R3t is an insanely difficult combination and a skater that is able to do that should be awarded something like a 20% bonus for that combination.

May be they should allow ladies to do 8 triples now that many top ladies are able to skate 7-triple programs?

 

[zebraswan]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BFCAsujp4-l/?taken-by=rogonov_alex

I wished for an Onegin program and it seems that's what they're doing

 

[pinky166]

That combo is crazy.

Unfortunately, without a 3axel, I can't think of much points advantage for doing a 3/3/3 due to Zayak rule and the required 7 jumping passes. She'd max out on triples and 2axels after 6 passes, and the highest scoring element she could do for the seventh pass is 2lutz2loop.

I haven't done the math on this but I doubt this hypothetical layout for Medvedeva would garner her much of a base TES advantage over what she did this past season:

3flip3toe
3lutz
--bonus--
3sal3loop3toe
3flip
2axel
2axel
2lutz2loop

I heard she wants to start training 4s this summer. Given her jumping ability and strong technique on her 3s, I don't think getting the quad is unrealistic. Unlike many top ladies who struggle with 3s, Medvedeva seems to be very comfortable with that jump, she puts 3s-3t in her FS so late! So, while I don't see a 3a happening for her, I don't think 4s is out of the realm of possibility.

I also don't think having one jumping pass of double jumps is a bad idea. I get that someone who is capable of 3-3-3 doing doubles could seem silly, but at the end of the day, it would give her more points (the layout you proposed above would add an addition 4 ish points to current BV). She could do a rippon 2lz to gain comfort doing that arm variation in competition. When the rules changed to only allow 2 double axels in the FS, I actually thought that Yuna should have just put a 2lz into her FS, so she could have kept both her 3lz-3t and 2a-3t combos in her FS without having to add in the 3lo that aggravated her injuries.

 

[Vash01]

I heard she wants to start training 4s this summer. Given her jumping ability and strong technique on her 3s, I don't think getting the quad is unrealistic. Unlike many top ladies who struggle with 3s, Medvedeva seems to be very comfortable with that jump, she puts 3s-3t in her FS so late! So, while I don't see a 3a happening for her, I don't think 4s is out of the realm of possibility.

I also don't think having one jumping pass of double jumps is a bad idea. I get that someone who is capable of 3-3-3 doing doubles could seem silly, but at the end of the day, it would give her more points (the layout you proposed above would add an addition 4 ish points to current BV). She could do a rippon 2lz to gain comfort doing that arm variation in competition. When the rules changed to only allow 2 double axels in the FS, I actually thought that Yuna should have just put a 2lz into her FS, so she could have kept both her 3lz-3t and 2a-3t combos in her FS without having to add in the 3lo that aggravated her injuries.

Interesting thoughts (about the doubles)

In Boston, during a practice session, she did a 3-3 combination using Tano on one jump and Rippon on the other. She is amazing.

I felt that her 3f was really strong, but I agree that 4s would be a more realistic option for her to upgrade her difficulty (as if she doesn't have enough?!)