MAXSwagg
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True. All commentators say idiotic things every once in a while.
Evan Lysacek - the most underappreciated champion?
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True. All commentators say idiotic things every once in a while.
Was it worth more points when he said that?
MAXSwagg
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3Lz+3T has always been worth more. Its base value just got increased this season and is effectively worth the same as an extraordinarily difficult 3F+3Lo. Hell, a 3F+3T is worth almost the same as a 3A+2T (9.6 vs. 9.8).
Well then what Scott said wasn't untrue. Technically, BV implies difficulty.
briancoogaert
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IMO, Evan had no personal style. He learnt a style he could be comfortable with (Latin music, flailing arms). But it's not a problem after all.
IMO, he had nothing special, but was super consistant and had no weakness (except the Axel technique). He had long jumps with fast rotation, good spins, clean presentation.
So I guess he is respected for what he did and achieved, but doesn't have the same base fan as other skaters.
IMO, he had nothing special, but was super consistant and had no weakness (except the Axel technique). He had long jumps with fast rotation, good spins, clean presentation.
So I guess he is respected for what he did and achieved, but doesn't have the same base fan as other skaters.
MAXSwagg
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Oh, no, no, no. A 3Lz+3T is not more difficult as a 3A+2T. The base values of those jumps are mostly determined by number of rotations (which is what he said). Just because it has 0.5 rotations more doesn't mean it's more difficult. Don't even try to spin that. Even B.Esp were outraged at those valuations.
Anyway, Evan won but that's about it. The most forgettable Olympic Champion of the past 20 years.
Based on conventional wisdom, I agree with you that it's not more difficult. But only points matter under IJS - and it's a system that is supposed to award difficulty more quantitatively and transparently.
The ISU determined the BV for each jump and determined how combinations should be awarded (or not). Everyone can argue whether the assigned BVs are fair or not, but under the rules at the time, a 3lutz3toe had a higher BV than a 3axel2toe (according to you) and therefore by definition was harder / received more credit for difficulty.
"The base values of those jumps are mostly determined by number of rotations" -> how is that not true?
MAXSwagg
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Instead of disseminating false information, he should've said that "The base value for these jumps is x and y, although they do not accurately reflect the difficulty of the combinations." That is the issue. Based on his tone, I believe he actually thinks this (did Scott even ever do any 3A combinations when he was skating? Honest question.).
If Kristi Yamaguchi had been doing commentaries, she would probably say the 3sal was more difficult than 3flip and 3lutz.
Anyways, I hated him as a commentator so I don't care. I much preferred Dick Button even though his opinion was also heavily biased towards his stylistic preference (but that's why I liked him).
S
SmallFairy
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This whole thread is. Where is @Yazmeen when I need her?
Evan is actually very down to earth and a nice, well-mannered guy. He never voluntarily walked away from the sport so IDK why people are trying to say that. He had his own special niche being he was one hell of a determined and focused competitor and I always loved his intensity. I feel like once the guys that were in Vancouver for the US disappeared from competitions, things got really boring on the American skating front. And sorry Nathan Chen does nil for me.
Me and my friend met Evan randomly at the hotel at Cup of Russia on year, up on the third floor or something. He was with Jenny Kirk, giggling in the window pane. They were both very, very nice and friendly and started chatting and we had a silly, jolly conversation about all and nothing. I never found Evan's skating the most exciting (what does it take to make fans? Oh, so many criterias...) and I didn't rewatch his programs, but I was fascinated by his determination and power of never giving in, keep working and when he came to competition, it didn't look like he had to fight for everything, (except the 3a, that entrance
) he was well prepared and got the damn job done, and it looked silly easy. I've been a heartbroken fan of too many fragile skaters, so it's a quality I could appreciate. I never found Evan sloppy or untiffed, (though of course not balletic either) he had the package and it worked for him. And of course, I wanted that success for Frank!
gotoschool
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It is obvious which is more difficult by simply posing the question, "How many women have ever done a triple axel / double toe in competition?" and comparing it to the number that have done 3 lutz / 3toe. Taken a step further, how many woman have even done a triple axel in competition compared to a triple lutz / triple toe? This is one of the reasons I don't take scores at face value and decide what performances I like best.
Besides that, the errors in Scott Hamilton's commentary are made more obvious by the fact that he said Adelina Sotnikova was the first woman to do a one handed Biellmann in the Olympics when Mao had done it while he was announcing 4 years earlier at Vancouver. Mao and Adelina are friends and Mao was Adelina's hero from what I have read so I think she would not have liked that comment, since she may have got the idea to do the one handed Biellmann from Mao. To me, these two erroneous comments by Scott Hamilton show he has been unwilling to give Mao the credit for her skating and elements she deserves, especially since Mao has suffered chronic back and knee injuries because of them and because he himself didn't do a triple axel in the Olympics while Mao has done 4. In particular, I found his post skate commentary of the short program at Vancouver to be highly biased and dismissive of Mao's strengths. I think he had excellent skating skills, but I have never liked his commentary even for people he complimented and his jumps at the Olympics weren't impressive, but I do think he is a little less biased than Sandra Bezic as a commentator. But, I think she even had her positive sides because she choreographed some of my favorite programs by Lu Chen and Kristi Yamaguchi.
As far as Evan's skating, I have only seen his performance at the Vancouver Olympics. I thought he skated well. But, I preferred Evgeni's and Daisuke's performances. Evgeni and Daisuke were both more charismatic for me and I preferred their skating skills, as well as Daisuke's footwork and Evgeni's jumps more than Evan's.
I will say that it is impressive that such a tall person as Evan can do triple jumps and I would think that it must be harder for him than someone of normal height. I also think he is relatively graceful for someone so tall.
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I admire his spinning the most. I am probably the same height as he is (around 184?) and my body has no flexibility at all. He is a great spinner with fast spins and tight positions, wonderful if you consider his height. He totally could have had Laurent Tobel's posture, extension and spinning ability but he obviously worked hard to make sure he remained competitive.
bardtoob
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I think of Evan as that guy who put in the consistent effort over time, then got the reward . . . which is good for a role model, but just not ummm "sexy" or exciting.
lala
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Lambiel won the 2005 Worlds (Plushenko withdrew)
Plushenko won the 2006 OGM
thus that is obvious Lysacek won the 2009 Worlds and the 2010 OGM at Vancouver
It depends on the jump also. The axel is considered the most difficult jump due to the additional half revolution. However, for some skaters it is easier than the Lutz (e.g. Kurt Browning, Viktor Petrenko). For them the 3Lz3t is harder than the 3A2t. In general though a 3-3 is harder, and perhaps that's what Scott was talking about.
However, Scott has made many ridiculous statements over the years. Just because he is an elite skater doesn't mean he is right in everything he says.
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I agree but I also understand why. He has only 1 medal at a World Championships- a bronze. He was very inconsistent and didnt usually deliver in big events, which leaves him pretty unknown despite his Olympic Gold.
Yazmeen
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No, that was Sarah Hughes...
I always like Evan the same way I liked Nancy K when she was on. Just nice skating without the arm flapping and the fluff. He deserved his OGM fair and square.
MAXSwagg
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No, Sarah had at least some personality. Evan...nothing. Yes, he won fair and square but that doesn't change the fact that he's absolutely forgettable.
Rina RUS
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LOL. 
what a thread!
Lala, soon I'll see Evan on all the userpics!!! Who else is as lucky as me? !!!
what a thread! Lala, soon I'll see Evan on all the userpics!!! Who else is as lucky as me? !!!
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Duhhh..I stand corrected. Thank you!
Lambiel won the 2005 Worlds (Plushenko withdrew)
Plushenko won the 2006 OGM
thus that is obvious Lysacek won the 2009 Worlds and the 2010 OGM at Vancouver
I think you have to break down the 3Z/3A discussion into two components.
First, it's understood that acquiring a 3A is harder than acquiring a 3Z. Ask the ladies, especially. From that perspective, while we can see many skaters who can do a 3/3, there is almost no one in ladies (and lower level men) who can do a 3A, much less a 3A/2T.
If you put that piece of it aside and assume you *have* all your triples including an axel with a somewhat comparable hit rate in practice, then yeah the 3/3 is definitely harder. I believe this would be Hamilton's ingoing assumption.
Landing the 3A almost guarantees you execute the 2T under most circumstances of how you land the axel. Landing the 3Z in no way means you'll be able to crank a triple behind it.
First, it's understood that acquiring a 3A is harder than acquiring a 3Z. Ask the ladies, especially. From that perspective, while we can see many skaters who can do a 3/3, there is almost no one in ladies (and lower level men) who can do a 3A, much less a 3A/2T.
If you put that piece of it aside and assume you *have* all your triples including an axel with a somewhat comparable hit rate in practice, then yeah the 3/3 is definitely harder. I believe this would be Hamilton's ingoing assumption.
Landing the 3A almost guarantees you execute the 2T under most circumstances of how you land the axel. Landing the 3Z in no way means you'll be able to crank a triple behind it.
SkateFanBerlin
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I was going to bring up Urmanov but thought he was too long ago. I actually think he was the least impressive of men's oly champs. Even in '94 when I wasn't really following I was surprised at his win.
This whole discussion boils down to preferences. For me Lysacek brought more passion and excitement to his oly performance than Hanyu, for example. I consider him a more memorable champion. Lysacek didn't have the quad but he was so far ahead of Pluschy in all other areas. As someone who looks for a total performance Lysacek delivered. Even more remarkable given his size.
He didnt say it was more difficult, he said under IJS it was worth more points. And factually when he said that in 2010 he was right.
MAXSwagg
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He said that also. He's made both of these statements.
Well according to the rules of the sport it was at the time. Many felt the rules were flawed so that was changed, but given the point values at the time his comment was still justified.
DreamSkates
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It also doesn't mean trash him totally. Many commentators make statements off the top of their heads meaning they don't have time to think something through thoroughly as we do on a discussion board like this one.
Why are you so defensive about Scott? Other commentators get routinely trashed on fsu. When he makes outrageous statements, he deserves to be criticized because as an expert he has the power to influence people and he should not mislead them.
Sorry but I disagree. Lysacek and passion don't go together. Plushenko was not perfect but he skated with more feeling. Lysacek's jumps have never been really good, He forces everything.
About Urmanov, he won by default because nobody skated well in the men's field in 94. Boitano, Petrenko, Browing and Stojko were supposed to be the favorites for the gold, but first three self destructed in the SP and were out of even medal contention going into the LP. Stojko's main weapon was the quad but he didn't do it. He popped his first triple axel, then he replaced the quad with a triple axel. Even though he skated clean rest of the way, his presentation marks were not his friend. He needed the quad to win. Urmanov had a problem on his 3 flip but he skated clean rest if the way. The quality of his jumps was superior to Stojko's (in the 6.0 system that counted a lot). Urmanov won the OGM before he was expected to, but he still was the Olympic champion. Mainly people in North America hated him because he beat a Canadian. Sadly Urmaniv's career ending injury didn't allow him to really develop.
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screech
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When I was competing, my aunt (a judge) used to say that the winner wasn't necessarily the best overall skater, (s)he was just the best on that particular day. I liked that comment when I didn't win, because it helped me to put things into perspective.
I especially like his sit spins - he gets into a full sit position, and he's just as low on one foot as he is on the other. Most skaters are much higher on one foot. And I looked it up -he's 1.88 m (6'2")
To be fair, he battled some injuries. In 1997 he was on his way to finally winning Worlds - 1st in the QR and 1st in the SP before having to withdraw. Ilia Kulik only had one world medal before winning his OGM, but people seem to think fondly of the giraffe. Honestly I feel like Viktor Petrenko is somewhat under appreciated as an OGM, despite a world title and Olympic bronze (and a 4th) to go with it.
