Essential Ice Dance

[VGThuy]

Indeed. This is very important. G&P had tremendous speed and skated very aggressively and with a lot of snap. They weren't really about polish. But to be fair, i thought Platov was a very polished skater with glorious posture, neck and shoulder line, and free leg extension. Oksana's free leg extension was impeccable in the compulsory dances but she could sometime let loose in those areas of her skating in the OD and FD.

I always thought that if I was an ice dancer of my dreams (in the style with the strengths and weaknesses of my ideal), I'd want a male partner like Sergei Ponomarenko with Evgeny Platov and Scott Moir as a close second and third.

Is my video of G&P's 92 FD not available to watch in the U.S anymore? Do you know why?

It's says there's a copyright strike from Sony (Japan) and not available in our country.

 

[Vash01]

While we are on G&P, here is their 98 OD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0UKQ4TG8A

I agree with gk_891 that they were very athletic, and different from classical skaters that came before them. Tracy just can't stop criticizing them.

 

[gk_891]

I always thought that if I was an ice dancer of my dreams (in the style with the strengths and weaknesses of my ideal), I'd want a male partner like Sergei Ponomarenko with Evgeny Platov and Scott Moir close seconds and thirds.

You have some good choices there. I think Ponomarenko, Platov, and Moir are some of the greatest male ice dancers ever (along with Christopher Dean of course)

 

[gk_891]

While we are on G&P, here is their 98 OD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0UKQ4TG8A

I agree with gk_891 that they were very athletic, and different from classical skaters that came before them. Tracy just can't stop criticizing them.

She was on a rampage in regards to G&P from 96-98. I think her criticisms of their material in 94 and 96 were very fair. But outside of that, she came across as a bitter hater.

With G&P's 98 OD, it's one of their weakest ODs ever. But choreographically it was a very challenging program, much more so than K&O's (which Tracy loved to pieces and couldn't stop praising).

 

[gk_891]

It's says there's a copyright strike from Sony (Japan) and not available in our country.

Oh I see. It's too bad more Americans wouldn't be able to watch it then.

 

[VGThuy]

She was on a rampage in regards to G&P from 96-98. I think her criticisms of their material in 94 and 96 were very fair. But outside of that, she came across as a bitter hater.

With G&P's 98 OD, it's one of their weakest ODs ever. But choreographically it was a very challenging program, much more so than K&O's (which Tracy loved to pieces and couldn't stop praising).

Some people said Maya Usova was her good friend. That could have explained it, . I also think with the addition of Bourne/Kraatz made her more patriotic but also sort of highlighted how ice dance was seriously moving away from what she probably liked in ice dance and was become all about dramatics, and G/P for some reason became the pinata to take all those critiques. Ice dance fan wars has always been pretty ruthless, and G/P, from what I gathered, became a seriously polarizing team at that point in time...mainly because of Oksana and her increasingly bizarre on-ice and off-ice behavior.

I remember when TSL interviewed Wilson and asked about her commentary on G/P, if I recall correctly, Wilson didn't so much as backtrack from it, but softened her stance a bit on G/P. I think she probably felt her criticisms were valid. I don't think they got into her Nagano CD commentary. I always forget which American ice dancer commentated for 1998 Worlds, but it was the total opposite of Wilson in that she was heavily critical of B/K and their lack of content in their OD. It seemed like almost a commentator war, though ABC tried really hard to follow CBS's lead to make B/K hometown heroes and tried to make A/P's results look undeserving whereas the ABC female ice dance commentator and Dick Button were having none of it and instead were praising A/P.

 

[Vash01]

I always thought that if I was an ice dancer of my dreams (in the style with the strengths and weaknesses of my ideal), I'd want a male partner like Sergei Ponomarenko with Evgeny Platov and Scott Moir as a close second and third.


.

I agree about Ponomarenko and Platov. I wouldn't pick Moir. He makes too many mistakes.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think Moir makes that many mistakes looking at their career as a whole. I mean Platov used to make a lot of mistakes as well and fell on elements (though some say it was Oksana's fault for improvising and messing up his timing or having her foot get in his way), and I'd still pick him.

 

[Vash01]

It's time to go to bed for me (1 AM here). Would love to continue the conversation tomorrow. I have already made a list of some ice dances to talk about, but I don't have the energy to look for the links right now.

Good night.

 

[gk_891]

Some people said Maya Usova was her good friend. That could have explained it, . I also think with the addition of Bourne/Kraatz made her more patriotic but also sort of highlighted how ice dance was seriously moving away from what she probably liked in ice dance and was become all about dramatics, and G/P for some reason became the pinata to take all those critiques. Ice dance fan wars has always been pretty ruthless, and G/P, from what I gathered, became a seriously polarizing team at that point in time...mainly because of Oksana and her increasingly bizarre on-ice and off-ice behavior.

I remember when TSL interviewed Wilson and asked about her commentary on G/P, if I recall correctly, Wilson didn't so much as backtrack from it, but softened her stance a bit on G/P. I think she probably felt her criticisms were valid. I don't think they got into her Nagano CD commentary. I always forget which American ice dancer commentated for 1998 Worlds, but it was the total opposite of Wilson in that she was heavily critical of B/K and their lack of content in their OD. It seemed like almost a commentator war, though ABC tried really hard to follow CBS's lead to make B/K hometown heroes and tried to make A/P's results look undeserving whereas the ABC female ice dance commentator and Dick Button were having none of it and instead were praising A/P.

I saw that TSL interview with Wilson. IIRC, she said that her 'concern' with G&P's Memorial Requiem was her preference for the British style of ice dance which emphasized content (someone correct me if I'm not remember that interview correctly). I find that interesting since Memorial Requiem had way better content than the free dances that she loved (K&O's Carmen and B&K's Riverdance).

Wilson also said that B&K deserved to have had at least a shot at a medal in Nagano. But that's garbage as they made 3 errors in the Golden Waltz compulsory dance, they made errors in their Argentine Tango (both time, Kraatz keeps his free foot on the ice just before his counter while Bourne does her twizzle on 2 feet rather than the required 1 foot), their OD was the easiest out of all the couples in the top 10 and their free dance was skated entirely hand to hand or side by side. I don't see how they could've held off Anissina & Peizerat, much less challenged a couple of Grishuk & Platov. When I rewatched the ice dance from Nagano years ago, it was almost shocking how superior A&P were to B&K. They should've never been close rivals. A&P skated much closer together and they had much more ambitious programs. Someone like Wilson should have been able to have seen that.

And yes, the commentator from ABC was Judy Blumberg! She was awesome. The way she tore into B&K was very satisfying.

 

[sap5]

Spun Silver is watching the videos in chronological order so when SS got to G/P in 1992, SS felt that G/P seemed to have less content, intricacy, and polish than what T/D and K/P were providing in the earlier years. I do think most agree that G/P are rougher than their fellow Soviets/Russians who came before them and rougher than T/D. That roughness is actually a strength as well as a detriment because their roughness came from their energy and athletic style of dancing. I know some who can never get into G/P because they didn't have the finesse, polish, or leg-line of the more classic ice dance teams (very similar to critiques that Davis/White received). But I will say Oksana had a great natural timing and rhythm to the music.

I'm not sure if "athletic" is the best way to describe this style of dance. I consider dancing with finesse and polish and correct lines to be more athletically demanding as it requires purposeful control of all muscles to achieve proper balance and execution of the intention behind the movement. And this is true of all types of dance, whether it is ballet or say, break dance.

 

[clairecloutier]

I have to put in a word for Charlie White as one of the great male ice dancers IMO ... He lacks the elegance of a Platov, but the speed & power he generates is amazing. I've always felt he is very strong in his partnering. Plus there's the emotional quality he brings.

I do agree that Platov was one of the most elegant men I've seen on the ice, such classic posture and line. Ponomarenko--to me, he was always overshadowed by Marina--but perhaps I need to develop more appreciation of him. Scott is so strong with his blades, quite amazing, and I appreciate him more during their comeback than I did before. What impresses me about Scott is his focus on Tessa--he is emotionally present. Scott's weakness to me is in lifts, I don't find him quite as strong in that area as Platov or Charlie or, say, Evan Bates (although I think V/M's lifts have improved in their comeback).

Among current men, for me Michael Parsons stands out with his exceptional posture and skating skills. Also Alex Shibutani, who is strong in his partnering. And of course, Cizeron.


@Spun Silver I wonder if this is the thread you were thinking of: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/compulsory-dances.98688/. This thread got started last year, and the focus was compulsory dances. There are lots of fabulous video links in here. No SDs/FDs though.

 

[Spun Silver]

@clairecloutier, that link doesnt work for me, but a comoprehensive OD thread would complement this one perfectly. I tried removing the period and then the slash, but no luck. Maybe when I renew it will work. Thank you!

 

[gk_891]

I'm not sure if "athletic" is the best way to describe this style of dance. I consider dancing with finesse and polish and correct lines to be more athletically demanding as it requires purposeful control of all muscles to achieve proper balance and execution of the intention behind the movement. And this is true of all types of dance, whether it is ballet or say, break dance.

I agree with this. But looking at G&P in 1991 when they were still being coached by Dubova, they looked much more polished. In 1992, their FD was a much different style and you can see how Grishuk could sometimes let go of those aspects of her skating (posture, line, and extension). But a year ealier when they skated a Blues OD and a Italian folk dance, those aspects of her skating were much stronger.

OD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zm21kQp1ME

FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVS5uFLGtgU

I wish they had at least trained with Dubova for a little while longer before inner politics within the Dubova camp pushed them out. Because when they moved to Linichuk, they started to become almost hyper-aggressive and Oksana's upper body movements became even more unruly (although to be fair, they did improve in other ways during their stint with Linichuk).

But still, when you look at teams who had fantastic polish and lines (like Usova & Zhulin and Annenko & Sretensky), their style didn't always lend itself well to other types of dances. Both teams skated the Yankee Polka CD at the 1989 Europeans and I thought both didn't do a very good job with that dance. They didn't move quickly enough for that type of dance and so their timing looked slow.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm not sure if "athletic" is the best way to describe this style of dance. I consider dancing with finesse and polish and correct lines to be more athletically demanding as it requires purposeful control of all muscles to achieve proper balance and execution of the intention behind the movement. And this is true of all types of dance, whether it is ballet or say, break dance.

Maybe more physical? Maybe you can help find a word to describe what I'm talking about. I agree that dancing with control over line, balance, polish, and finish is much harder than dancing than not doing those things and the amount of physicality it takes to be in that sort of control cannot be understated. However, there really was a difference with Oksana in that she really pushed her body to do things and the amount of content G/P's programs had seemed to be a level above what some of the top teams were giving at that time. A whole lot of movement and difficult content requiring a lot out of Oksana physically throughout the dance.

 

[gk_891]

Maybe more physical? Maybe you can help find a word to describe what I'm talking about. I agree that dancing with control over line, balance, polish, and finish is much harder than dancing than not doing those things and the amount of physicality it takes to be in that sort of control cannot be understated. However, there really was a difference with Oksana in that she really pushed her body to do things and the amount of content G/P's programs had seemed to be a level above what some of the top teams were giving at that time. A whole lot of movement and difficult content requiring a lot out of Oksana physically throughout the dance.

I think physical would be a good word. They really moved aggressively and their basic stroking had a ton of strength yet was quiet simultaneously. I also remember Platov's ex-wife once said that Grishuk had a very different understanding of music and dance than Platov did.

 

[Vash01]

Maybe more physical? Maybe you can help find a word to describe what I'm talking about. I agree that dancing with control over line, balance, polish, and finish is much harder than dancing than not doing those things and the amount of physicality it takes to be in that sort of control cannot be understated. However, there really was a difference with Oksana in that she really pushed her body to do things and the amount of content G/P's programs had seemed to be a level above what some of the top teams were giving at that time. A whole lot of movement and difficult content requiring a lot out of Oksana physically throughout the dance.

Physical is a better word than athletic, I agree. Though I am a sucker for lines and posture (in both pairs and ice dance), I had great respect for G&P. IMO they revolutionized ice dance, in a way. The earlier revolutions were by T&D (type of music, dance) and the Dushenays (passion, but their technique hurt them a bit). G&P pushed the envelope with their speed and attack. Platov often doesn't get credit for the great partner he was. He skated through injuries and still made the difficult footwork work. Without Oksana's personality and her ability to handle anything, I don't know if they would have been this successful. When they split, it broke my heart. They had so much to give, after their second OGM.

 

[gk_891]

Physical is a better word than athletic, I agree. Though I am a sucker for lines and posture (in both pairs and ice dance), I had great respect for G&P. IMO they revolutionized ice dance, in a way. The earlier revolutions were by T&D (type of music, dance) and the Dushenays (passion, but their technique hurt them a bit). G&P pushed the envelope with their speed and attack. Plato often doesn't get credit for the great partner he was. He skated through injuries and still made the difficult footwork work. Without Oksana's personality and her ability to handle anything, I don't know if they would have been this successful. When they split, it broke my heart. They had so much to give, after their second OGM.

Yeah, Platov was a superlative skater. During the compulsories, my eyes were often on him more than Grishuk since the compulsories stressed the basics and his basics were incredible. But like you had said, he wouldn't have accomplished as much without Oksana and her fire and intensity. And the same goes for her. They really pushed each other to become better skaters.

 

[gk_891]

I've always had a fondness for Moniotte & Lavanchy's polka OD from 1992. I would've placed them in 3rd for this OD behind K&P and G&P. I personally think it's their best program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrEUsQT-Das

 

[gkelly]

What was their music for the Rock n Roll OSP? It had some rock n' roll instrumentation, but it didn't seem to be an actual rock n' roll piece.

I'm pretty sure it's from Andrew Lloyd Webber's Variations (on Paganini's 24th caprice), probably specially arranged to repeat at the right intervals for the set pattern repeats. It is certainly a variation of that tune.

Usova/Zhulin's 1991 free dance seems to be one of the other variations.

I mean Platov used to make a lot of mistakes as well and fell on elements (though some say it was Oksana's fault for improvising and messing up his timing or having her foot get in his way), and I'd still pick him.

I attribute Platov's falls to 1) instability because of knee injuries and especially long legs and 2) G&P choreographing their dances to skate with their feet closer together than most of their rivals.

If in fact Grishuk was improvising during competition, that would be a reason to blame her. Do we know that to be the case?

 

[gk_891]

I'm pretty sure it's from Andrew Lloyd Webber's Variations (on Paganini's 24th caprice), probably specially arranged to repeat at the right intervals for the set pattern repeats. It is certainly a variation of that tune.

Usova/Zhulin's 1991 free dance seems to be one of the other variations.



I attribute Platov's falls to 1) instability because of knee injuries and especially long legs and 2) G&P choreographing their dances to skate with their feet closer together than most of their rivals.

If in fact Grishuk was improvising during competition, that would be a reason to blame her. Do we know that to be the case?

Ah, T&D's 83 OSP music does indeed sound like Webber's Variations. But probably specially arranged like you had said. Thanks for that.

For what it's worth, both Platov and Zhulin have claimed that Grishuk liked to improvise and change the steps on the fly. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but I don't think anyone has concrete proof of that per se. Some of Platov's falls in 97-98 were kind of scary. At the 97 Lalique competition, he fell on an assisted jump. In the slow-mo, you can see their skates clashing when she came down from the assisted jump and when he fell, his face came within inches of her blades. Thankfully that didn't happen but it could've been much worse.

 

[gk_891]

Some people might think I'm strange for mentioning these programs in a thread like this but I've always had a soft spot for Tatiana Navka back when she was coached by Natalia Dubova. Back then, she skated with Samuel Gezalijan who wasn't on her level but I still liked these programs quite a bit. They weren't super-amazing by any stretch but I still thoroughly enjoyed them.

1993 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZVCBhCiC8

1994 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPujutTOIGs

I've never gave it much thought as to why but I like her skating here much better than later on when she came World and Olympic champion with Roman Kostomarov.

 

[Spun Silver]

I cant get back to watching for a bit but just a quick comment - T/D came shockingly close to spoiling K/P for me. But of the five K/P programs In @gk_891's first set of links, one was a polka and those are very hard for me to enjoy. Even when choreographed by Balanchine. It's just a personal taste thing. The two waltzes were OK (I wonder why two such similar music choices back to back) but I didnt start melting until the Hungarian Rhapsody and the Charleston. I have much much more to watch but I think, like Vash, my adoration of K/P is based at least in part on their professional programs and EXs. Like R&J and the one where she is in a bat costume, or something like that. And her hair is long and floating... My current point being that's just how good T/D were. I really didn't know!

 

[VGThuy]

I cant get back to watching for a bit but just a quick comment - T/D came shockingly close to spoiling K/P for me. But of the five K/P programs In @gk_891's first set of links, one was a polka and those are very hard for me to enjoy. Even when choreographed by Balanchine. It's just a personal taste thing. The two waltzes were OK (I wonder why two such similar music choices back to back) but I didnt start melting until the Hungarian Rhapsody and the Charleston. I have much much more to watch but I think, like Vash, my adoration of K/P is based at least in part on their professional programs and EXs. Like R&J and the one where she is in a bat costume, or something like that. And her hair is long and floating... My current point being that's just how good T/D were. I really didn't know!

I love T/D, but K/P are my favorite ice dance team of all time. They were incredible technicians with incredible unison and intricacy and both had a beautiful cleanliness, polish, and finesse. What really amazes me is that Sergei and Marina were always in time with one another. There was something extra and they gave off a feeling of always knowing where the other one was, and Toller Cranston in their 1989 Charleston OSP (Worlds version not linked) of how many years and work it takes to make it look as easy as they did. I also felt so much with their programs, even the pre-transformation stuff. They didn't always lay it on thick (not until later on anyway), but they just gave off this authentic romantic energy and vibe even when they didn't intend it. It was as if they were grateful to have each other. I also never heard their incredibly difficult and near perfect Golden Waltz OSP be described as "OK" before. I think it's probably the greatest OSP of all time and beats most modern day SDs out of the water even though they are incomparable.

 

[gk_891]

I cant get back to watching for a bit but just a quick comment - T/D came shockingly close to spoiling K/P for me. But of the five K/P programs In @gk_891's first set of links, one was a polka and those are very hard for me to enjoy. Even when choreographed by Balanchine. It's just a personal taste thing. The two waltzes were OK (I wonder why two such similar music choices back to back) but I didnt start melting until the Hungarian Rhapsody and the Charleston. I have much much more to watch but I think, like Vash, my adoration of K/P is based at least in part on their professional programs and EXs. Like R&J and the one where she is in a bat costume, or something like that. And her hair is long and floating... My current point being that's just how good T/D were. I really didn't know!

Please definitely rewatch their Viennese waltz OSP from 1987 if you get the chance. As absolutely stunning as T&D's OSPs often were, I would honestly rank K&P's waltz as the greatest OSP ever like @VIETgrlTerifa mentioned. The content is insane as there is literally no place to rest or to push. The amount of steps and handholds is mind-boggling yet they make it look absolutely effortless and waltzy which is a testament to what exceptional skaters they are/were.

The Golden Waltz version is actually a slightly simplified version of their OSP and the video below explains how insanely hard it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_miauiWzl5k

The walk around steps are a bit different at the beginning and K&P actually performed their original OSP 6 steps faster than the original version as it had to be slowed down.

 

[UMBS Go Blue]

Chiming in with a laundry list of more recent routines, including some that haven't been listed so far on this thread:

Usova/Zhulin 1991 OD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_exxGGmRV8&t

Anissina/Peizerat 1999 OD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMgEOtiy7Fw

Virtue/Moir 2007 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzpD15nx348

Davis/White 2010 OD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUzchzkitdQ

Virtue/Moir 2010 OD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UM4Iz_qf8Y

Virtue/Moir 2010 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiHKNVQWis4

Virtue/Moir 2011 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIIM6FowjPQ

Davis/White 2012 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53BotahnuJ0

Weaver/Poje 2013 FD (pre-injury version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy6HIR4rX_0

Davis/White 2014 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrFwokp3z48

Papadakis/Cizeron 2015 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5eCJWdsW_A

Hubbell/Donohue 2016 OD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7r8OR8broc

Papadakis/Cizeron 2016 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rGHeK1V2rU

Hubbell/Donohue 2017 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ms8aBbIBKk

Papadakis/Cizeron 2017 FD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwGAKU27K0

 

[Spun Silver]

Thanks to you both for telling me what to look for. My lack of technnical knowledge is a real handicap which is why I laughed when @gk_891 asked me to keep sharing my reactions. I simply don't see what you guys do, and I appreciate your comments a lot.

 

[gk_891]

Thanks to you both for telling me what to look for. My lack of technnical knowledge is a real handicap which is why I laughed when @gk_891 asked me to keep sharing my reactions. I simply don't see what you guys do, and I appreciate your comments a lot.

I love chatting about ice dance so please don't hesitate to share your thoughts. And please don't think that becaue others love a program that you have to as well. It's always possible to admire and respect a program without necessarily liking it.

 

[gk_891]

If you want some good compulsory dances, here are some. I wanted to link some of the ones from the thread I had started last year but I can't access it for some reason.

Paso Doble
Torvill & Dean 1984 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duA9IvzH4u4

Starlight Waltz
Klimova & Ponomarenko 1990 Goodwill Games - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjU1dP2Cpk

Tango Romantica
Grishuk & Platov 1996 Worlds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cruSiVW1giM

Westminster Waltz
Torvill & Dean 1984 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3IaNqOE8zc
Klimova & Ponomarenko 1989 Worlds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgYtyT_h3E8

Viennese Waltz
Klimova & Ponomarenko 1988 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeOP6kNI5FE

Silver Samba
Grishuk & Platov 1996 Worlds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EKyAVbe9Qc

Quickstep
Anissina & Peizerat 2002 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDw6zOeySwo

Rhumba
Torvill & Dean 1984 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4r-7-Oj8jc
Bestemianova & Bukin 1984 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnOeR88n6TU

Killian
Bestemianova & Bukin 1988 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y3do9T5SoI

Golden Waltz
Grishuk & Platov 1998 Olympics (even with her error) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TuU9MWmwfY
Virtue & Moir 2010 Worlds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHpzI6g2VHc

Argentine Tango
Grishuk & Platov 1998 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXJEVGCoUhg

Blues
Grishuk & Platov 1994 Olympics - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y-fYktUIKc

Yankee Polka
Delobel & Schoenfelder 2008 Europeans - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHfEiTRPSI

Ravensburger Waltz
Denkova & Staviski 2006 Worlds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UvuNYYmH_k

 

[Spun Silver]

That's fabulous, @gk_891!

Speaking of CDs, I have one to contribute. I looked it up this time last year to see what the midnight blues was. I am not a massive V/M fan and I am definitely not keen on the midnight blues but still: Baby V/M at Jr Worlds 04-05 are wonderful.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5p4LTfRCw