Do champion skaters make good coaches?

[starrynight]

I was thinking about what it is which makes a good coach and if being a champion oneself necessarily makes one a good coach.

Brian Orser is a good example of a very top athlete becoming a very effective coach. However, I've noticed that many of the very famous coaches actually ranked that little bit below the top.

Marina Zoueva was an accomplished skater herself, but peaked at placing 5th at the World Championships. Pasquale Camerlengo peaked at 4th at Worlds.

Eteri Tutberidze, interestingly, had quite an unremarkable skating career herself. Igor Shpilband never competed past juniors.

I suppose being an ultimate champion yourself and being able to effectively teach others are different things.

 

[Willin]

I think it can make a good coach, but I'd say that's the exception rather than the rule. Obviously a coach has to be a very good skater, but that doesn't mean they're a champion. Some specialists are the best you can get for something (jumping, stroking, MITF or spinning) because they're world class at that part of skating but not competitive in the other aspects. Some coaches are great because they struggled before they became good - so they learned how to fix pretty much every error you could make.

I think champions can make bad coaches because they're so good. Some had things come so easily that they can't figure out why someone is struggling. Some aren't patient with people having struggles. Some are so used to techniques for higher level jumps and competition that they can't teach the basics. Some are stuck in the era they won in so they can't move on to what's winning now. Some have problems not related to being a champion: too big an ego to consult others, trouble teaching effectively, a lack of motivation. Those that don't have these problems know what it takes to win and can make great coaches.

 

[starrynight]

Maybe now that there is not much of a professional show skating circuit, we will see more champion skaters become coaches due to it being the best way to continue to earn a living in the sport?

Skaters like Bruno Massot and Aljona Savchenko have made an almost immediate transition to coaching jobs.

 

[overedge]

Further to @Willin 's very good points, some champions also may think it is "beneath" them to coach e.g. beginner skaters, lower-level competitive skaters, skaters who want to accomplish things in the sport by testing rather than competing, adult skaters. They may only want to coach champions, or potential champions. But the coaches that are successful - as in making enough money for a decent lifestyle - are the ones that are willing to coach any level or type of skater. Coaches can specialize, of course, and can still be somewhat selective as to who they want to work with (e.g. no skaters with crazy interfering parents). But champions are few and far between, and the bread and butter is in coaching everyone else.

 

[screech]

In Canada, there's a bit of a mixed bag between how the top coaches (past/present) were as competitors. Obviously, Orser/Wilson and Dubreul/Lauzon were hugely successful in their prime, but outside of them:
- Ravi Walia peaked 3rd at Canadians
- Doug Leigh was 2nd in junior men in Canada
- Lee Barkell won Nebelhorn as a pairs skater
- Bruno Marcotte won Nebelhorn as a pairs skater
- Joanne McLeod - I have no idea, other than that she has a dance degree

Canada seems to have more success with the champion skaters becoming choreographers (Dubreul again, Jeff Buttle, Kurt Browning, Shae-Lynn Bourne)

 

[overedge]

@screech I don't believe McLeod skated competitively, or even spent a significant amount of time as a skater. It isn't mentioned on her CV: https://www.joannemcleod.com/cv
I think she got involved with skating through working on dance with skaters off-ice.

 

[starrynight]

Some retired top skaters have had success getting jobs in existing coaching teams - Fabian Bourzat, Massi Scali for example. But they are now are going elsewhere aren't they now that the Detroit coaching scene has more or less disbanded (for now).

Scott Moir seems to also be taking some focused steps towards a career in coaching with his work at the Ilderton Skating Club and Gadbois. Although I guess serious full-time coaching won't be possible while he is still doing shows.

Is Patrick Chan still intending on coaching? I recall there were plans at one point to open a skating school.

 

[The Accordion]

Is Patrick Chan still intending on coaching? I recall there were plans at one point to open a skating school.

In the Liz Putnam podcast - she said she was taking him along to a coaching gig - in Newfoundland maybe? and that she was going to get him involved to try it out.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

@screech I don't believe McLeod skated competitively, or even spent a significant amount of time as a skater. It isn't mentioned on her CV: https://www.joannemcleod.com/cv
I think she got involved with skating through working on dance with skaters off-ice.

I never knew that. It probably explains to a degree why the skaters I have seen her coach have such unorthodox technique.

 

[Japanfan]

Whether a champion can be a good coach depends on the individual's skill set. Being a champion does not mean a skater has the skills to be a good coach.

Ravi Walia is a good example - a competent skater in the mix at Nationals, but not a 'champion' in the sense that Yagudin or Kwan were champions.

But he has excelled as Osmond's coach, and may do the same with other skaters.

In addition to attention to skating details, I would coaches need to be very patient people. Patience isn't a quality that everyone has, although it probably can be cultivated to a certain extent.

 

[overedge]

In the Liz Putnam podcast - she said she was taking him along to a coaching gig - in Newfoundland maybe? and that she was going to get him involved to try it out.

Some pictures of that gig here:
https://www.facebook.com/skatecanadaNL/

 

[screech]

I agree - the skater needs to have the personality for coaching.

I was chatting with Jeff Buttle's mom once (when he'd done some programs but was not the insanely in demand choreographer he is now), and asked if he was planning to coach. She told me (to paraphrase) that he didn't want to be the 'tough guy' with the skaters, and would rather get to just have fun and be creative with them.

Obviously it's working out for him!

With other skaters, I don't know that I see Patrick Chan as a coach. I don't know if it fits his personality all that much. I see him more as a consultant, or doing seminars, but I don't know how he'll be as a main coach.

I definitely see Meagan Duhamel as a coach - I kind of wish we'd gotten to see how she would have helped Seguin/Bilodeau.

 

[barbarafan]

Some retired top skaters have had success getting jobs in existing coaching teams - Fabian Bourzat, Massi Scali for example. But they are now are going elsewhere aren't they now that the Detroit coaching scene has more or less disbanded (for now).

Scott Moir seems to also be taking some focused steps towards a career in coaching with his work at the Ilderton Skating Club and Gadbois. Although I guess serious full-time coaching won't be possible while he is still doing shows.

Is Patrick Chan still intending on coaching? I recall there were plans at one point to open a skating school.

I think he has become part of J&J's team starting off with 2 weeks now and maybe back. I believe he is mostly working on connections etc and as another pair of eyes. It is a good start....there is a lot to learn on the other side of the boards.

 

[RoseRed]

I think he has become part of J&J's team starting off with 2 weeks now and maybe back. I believe he is mostly working on connections etc and as another pair of eyes. It is a good start....there is a lot to learn on the other side of the boards.

He's worked with a lot of the Gadbois teams actually, not just J&J. From social media, Hubbell/Donohue, Hawayek/Baker, Smart/Diaz, Wang/Liu, Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen and it looked like Komatsubara/Koleto too. And probably not everyone posted on IG about it.

 

[Seerek]

Ravi Walia is a good example - a competent skater in the mix at Nationals, but not a 'champion' in the sense that Yagudin or Kwan were champions.

I suspect Ravi also having been a IJS technical specialist has contributed a complimentary set of knowledge as it relates to coaching current competitors.

 

[BittyBug]

Obviously a coach has to be a very good skater...

Gustave Lussi, one of the most influential coaches of the past century, was a ski jumper, not skater. Yet he revolutionized skating technique (and in particular, spinning technique) and his coaching success is possibly unrivaled, having worked with Dick Button, Barbara Ann Scott, John Curry, Dorothy Hamill, Scott Hamilton and many others.

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/27/obituaries/gustave-lussi-95-a-coach-of-skating-champions.html

 

[barbarafan]

He's worked with a lot of the Gadbois teams actually, not just J&J. From social media, Hubbell/Donohue, Hawayek/Baker, Smart/Diaz, Wang/Liu, Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen and it looked like Komatsubara/Koleto too. And probably not everyone posted on IG about it.

J&J have actually brought him on board whereas the other is just this week with Sam...other coaches are on vacation.

 

[RoseRed]

J&J have actually brought him on board whereas the other is just this week with Sam...other coaches are on vacation.

No it sounds like it's the same thing - their fed just actually announced it, unlike the others. They said in their video they they were only working with him for the next two weeks (and this was ~ a week ago), and maybe again in the future. I don't think they're actually working more with him than the other teams.

 

[manhn]

Canada also have had some big name champs teach hockey players skating skills, Liz Manley, Dave Pelletier, Barb Underhill.

While one does not need to be a champion to be a good coach, is there an example of where they have been truly disasters? Sometimes, it does not work, but that is life. There are coaches who get a lot of hate, but I do not think any of them were champion skaters.

 

[caseyedwards]

You have to learn all the rules which means not skating and reading a lot of the time! Then you have to take what you read and be able to communicate with a student ijs rules and regulations

 

[Orm Irian]

I think it partly depends on what the definition of a 'good coach' is. Is it someone who inspires their students to love skating either as competitors or recreationally, someone who teaches good technique and good sportsmanship and lets medals go hang, someone who creates unique performers, or someone whose students win every medal going? (Of course the platonic ideal of a skating coach does all four, but we're talking about human beings with limitations here). I think all of those can be hard for former champions to achieve because they require going back to the basics and learning a whole new set of skills, the greatest of which is a completely different kind of patience than it takes to be a champion sportsperson. But those who are willing and able to start at the unglamorous, unpublicised end of the pool and do the equivalent of their teacher-training can, I think, make very good coaches indeed.

One thing I have noticed is that good coaches all have what in the education field is called a philosophy of teaching guiding their work, and that's something that one only really develops with time and experience. Mishin has spent decades building his, and we saw what it could achieve in his work with Carolina Kostner last season. Orser is a great example of a former champion who was willing to start at the unglamorous end of coaching and built his skills, his style and philosophy of teaching and his profile from there. Likewise, although he doesn't have as much of a profile yet, Lambiel was learning by teaching low-level students, coaching the Bodenstein siblings when they were still in single digits and doing single jumps, and doing 'polish coaching' along with his choreography work for some years before establishing 3S, and then running the school (including learn-to-skate classes) for a while longer before taking on his first international senior student, and it shows. By starting at the lower levels of coaching he's developed a distinct philosophy of teaching and approach to teaching, that's still in progress but getting some interesting results, and not just at the top - one of his students who's been working away for years at Swiss-cup level just made it into the national junior catch-up cadre in her final year of eligibility and will be able to compete internationally this season and possibly into the future, which seems to be a direct reflection of his approach (that achievements come when a student's mind and body are ready for them and not according to someone else's timetable, so as long as you love what you're doing, keep on working).

Another one I'm interested in as a kind of contrasting case is Plushenko (he makes a good comparison with Lambiel because they're both former World Champions with active careers as show skaters as well as their own skating schools). If I'm remembering correctly, his school teaches learn-to-skate classes as well as competitive skating, and I know he's had some relatively high-profile students. He also seems to be very good at drawing on his experience to work with established skaters who are recovering from injuries. But I don't yet get a sense that as an individual he has, or is developing, a guiding philosophy of teaching or a personalised approach to skills development for his students as yet, and I'm not sure why. It will be interesting to see how how he develops as a coach over the next few years and if a philosophy of teaching does emerge, though. I'm sure it will be quite distinctive if it does, but I'm not sure he's going to be able to create a substantial career as a coach if it doesn't.

I think one of the advantages that former champions have as coaches, though, is that they understand the world of competitive skating from the ground up. They have the ability to not just teach skills, but also scaffold their students through the process of becoming participants in the culture of competitive figure skating, and they have connections that let them network like nobody's business. Getting opportunities for your students is a important part of teaching too!

ETA: Oh, I forgot! (Sorry, this is getting very tl;dr). Aljona Savchenko stepping straight into coaching the Knierims is going to be interesting because it seems like she's skipping over all the developmental stages of teaching skill development. But at the same time she has recent experience of both coaching Bruno in some areas and being coached by him in others as they built their partnership (triple salchows! - and Bruno has a long-standing interest in coaching, too), and her students are adults, not teenagers. Both of those factors could make a difference. I'll be watching closely to see how it goes...

 

[aliceanne]

I think champion skaters have more opportunities in the skating world than coaching. They have the name recognition to give seminars or be consultants. Orser said in one interview that he makes more money doing that than coaching. As an added bonus you don’t have to deal with parents, politics, and go through the hassle of getting/maintaining coaching credentials.

 

[mollymgr]

Unlike other sports, figure skating coaching also has the "marketing" aspect. It's not just about technique but developing the skater as a complete package.
Due to skating being a judged sport, a coach's influence and reputation in the international field can have an influence on the outcomes. Some of the high profile coaches (champion or non-champion) were coaches of people who are currently judging the field. Even a champion who is a coach has to build his/her reputation as a coach.
The advantages a champion coach has is that they have worked with elite coaches, know how to compete under pressure, and the experience of competing in bigger events. But it doesn't mean that a champion coach will always be a good coach. Everything has to fall in place for that to happen, including the quality of students the coach has under his/her tutelage.
Sometimes, the best in the world may not be the best at teaching or knowing how to fix someone's technique.

 

[Marco]

Motivating yourself to train is very different to motivating others. Or, on the flip side, if Evan Lysacek was a coach and he got someone to train like he used to, I don't know how much of that would be due to Evan and how much of that would be because the student already had the drive to work hard within him.

 

[Japanfan]

The advantages a champion coach has is that they have worked with elite coaches, know how to compete under pressure, and the experience of competing in bigger events.

But that is true of most skaters who have competed at the senior international level, arguably even the senior national level, and aren't considered 'champions' - Ravi Walia being just one example.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I never said this before but Orsar's success is in part because his style of skating is what's called for now. Looking at his old vids he was a busier skater than Boitano. He packed his programs with content - like today's skaters.

 

[starrynight]

I do wonder if Elena Ilinykh will end up becoming a prominent name in coaching one day. She's mostly doing training camps for young skaters, but seems happy to start working from the bottom.