Dick Button's lament

Wyliefan said:
Uncle Dick sounds off on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/dick.button.90/posts/10214317301744224

I'm amused that he's still holding up Alina Zagitova as a great artiste. I mean, I like her and Lord knows she's incredibly talented, but she's a skater that a lot of fans point to when they bewail the decline of artistry!
Click to expand...

I agree with most of it. I get bored with a lot of the skating competitions because of lack of artistry. That's why dance is my favorite. At least there's still some originality there.
 
Yes, I saw that on Facebook myself.

As much as I love Uncle Dick, I find this rant tiring. For instance, he misses the wonderful skating of Fleming, Hamill, Yamaguchi, Witt, and Albright. Fair enough, but each of those skaters were from a different era.

And, let's be honest, there have never been more than a small handful of interesting and artistic competitors, in any discipline, ever. Yes, even in the "good ol' days," aside from a relatively small percentage of skaters, most programs were as boring as many are now.
 
I respect Uncle Dickie's expertise, but his complaints seem to be the same no matter what skating looks like at the time :lol:

I mean, if the most recent skaters that he admires are Yamaguchi and Witt....I admire them too, but they last competed more than 20 years ago. He may be upset that the sport has changed since then, and he's likely not the only one, but being mad at skating now for not looking like it did several decades ago is kind of pointless.
 
I personally don't mind the state of figure skating programs now... but I think it will decline quite a bit with retirements this year.

The reason we got here is that to declare a winner the programs have to be increasingly standardized and some freedom has to be taken away. You need common vectors to compare two people. And this started before CoP but it accelerated the trend. The problem with this judging system is that it encourages an overly rational and calculating mentality. It's inherent in the system and attempts to try to further balance PCS and TES won't do anything(in fact, +/-5 GOE changes will make things worse)... and there are people who think the system is fine but that PCS isn't properly judged and frankly I don't think that's right either. The issue is too much counting and not what is counted. It's trying to judge the forest by counting up all the trees.

One thing that would help is getting rid of levels for spins... at least in the free skate.

I think it would be interesting if someone would put on a "retro rules" figure skating event yearly.

Also, the 6.0 system could have been saved just by adding more judges. I don't really mind CoP, but just adding more judges and cracking down harder on cheats would have been a far more effective response to purported collusion. Now the tech panel is a single point of failure in the system.

While CoP programs often seem too calculating, when I look back at 6.0 programs I notice they seem to have nice poise and projection but underneath the programs seem quite empty.

I've recently tried to get into hockey(and don't think it'll last) but I've heard a few complaints kind of like in figure skating. I remember watching a Wayne Gretzky interview when he said that there's not much creativity in hockey and that it's overly coached. I also read an article by a major hockey writer making the case to remove one player to "free the game" because hockey players are too big which makes the game more about "puck luck" and that players are not able to show their individual skill as much as they used to.
 
I think Zagitova has good artistry, but her programmes are busy with many elements and she does not have enough time to "hold the pose". She moves well, to the beat, with good energy and expression. We'll know more about her artistry when/if she skates to slower or lyrical music which requires different different movements and interpretation.

Funny.... once in a blue moon Button said something nice about a Russian skater, and people complain.... :D
 
berthesghost said:
:huh:
Skaters he enjoyed watching at this past Olys he mentioned in his post include: Hanyu, Nathan, Vincent, V/M, Zag, Med and Caro.
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He said he admired "elements" of their skating, but the implication seemed to be that even with that they were no match for the skaters of the past.
 
I actually do see what Dick sees in Zagitova. I think she has a lot of potential and carries herself as well as she can given her material and how Eteri teaches her skaters in how to get a level 4 step sequence where I feel is probably the sloppiest part of her skater's programs....but it works and they get level 4.

I think I'm feeling like Dick and getting old too because I'm so bored of the 7 jumping passes consisting of multi-rotational jumps and the same basic spins taking up 3 element spots, etc. I want skating to surprise me again. But then to be spontaneous and surprising means making the sport impossible to judge. This is why we need a pro scene again with skaters actually taking it seriously and keeping up their fitness. That said I do think skaters try seriously hard to do more than just the elements and they do want to put artistry and musical performance in their programs as much as they are able while ensuring they perform their more objectively scored elements as perfectly as possible.
 
overedge said:
He said he admired "elements" of their skating, but the implication seemed to be that even with that they were no match for the skaters of the past.
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Same old complaints that the current classical musicians aren’t as artistic as the much older classical musicians. Lol the current one has better technique for sure.
 
Meoima said:
Same old complaints that the current classical musicians aren’t as artistic as the much older classical musicians. Lol the current one has better technique for sure.
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I can see that. It's kind of similar to singers and dancers. Many of today's performers may sing/dance more correctly and have much better technique but some times there is something really special about not being so technically perfect or sounding "correct". On Broadway, a lot of up-and-coming talent really do sound similar. They are impressive sopranos and mezzos but they sort of run together while in the past there were lesser singers in range and technique but boy were they distinct and you certainly did remember them and they really knew how to sell a performance.
 
Dick is 99% right. The programs, for the ladies at least, are all basically the same. And it is getting worse with backloading. Creativity is being wrung out of the system--if it hasn't been already. Not sure where he is coming from with Zagitova. Where is the stretch of the leg, the holding out of positions, the beautiful (and restrained) arm movements? She and others just zip right through from element to element, racking up the points. Transitions, apparently, are the driving force behind PCS, since that is the only component in which she actually deserves a 9+ score. The only ladies skater still demonstrating superior artistry, in my opinion, is Satoko Miyahara. (OK, and Kostner.) The only explanation for why Satoko's PCS isn't higher than Zagitova's seems to be that the judges don't like her small jumps. Or maybe it's the transitions driving the score again (not that I agree with Satoko's transitions score). I don't think it's as big a problem with the men because men's skating has always tilted a little more towards the athletic than the artistic. And the men who are champions, like Hanyu and Fernandez (and even Uno to some extent), are able to do memorable artistic performances despite the demands of the system.
 
overedge said:
He said he admired "elements" of their skating, but the implication seemed to be that even with that they were no match for the skaters of the past.
Click to expand...

And then outright said that Brendan should go watch a few videos of those past skaters. No thanks Dick, he has lovely posture and lines just fine, all we gotta do is calm his nerves.

He was also being a jerk to Julian and a couple of the other little country skaters during the Olys. I was thoroughly displeased. Why do people idolise this guy's commentary again?
 
misskarne said:
And then outright said that Brendan should go watch a few videos of those past skaters. No thanks Dick, he has lovely posture and lines just fine, all we gotta do is calm his nerves.

He was also being a jerk to Julian and a couple of the other little country skaters during the Olys. I was thoroughly displeased. Why do people idolise this guy's commentary again?
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Because he grasps figure skating's beautiful potential and history and is worried about its direction going forward.

Technical innovation isn't a bad thing whatsoever... but skating is about so much more than jumps. It has become almost taboo to criticize the road the sport is going down. The system's not a terrible one, but it certainly needs some serious tweaks.
 
Last edited:
overedge said:
I mean, if the most recent skaters that he admires are Yamaguchi and Witt....I admire them too, but they last competed more than 20 years ago. He may be upset that the sport has changed since then, and he's likely not the only one, but being mad at skating now for not looking like it did several decades ago is kind of pointless.
Click to expand...

He also has a short memory on his previous opinions of skaters. Around 1998, in IIRC, People Magazine, Button snarked about Witt that she an absolutely beautiful woman, and he couldn't remember a single memorable thing she'd ever done on the ice.
 
N_Halifax said:
It has become almost taboo to criticize the road the sport is going down. The system's not a terrible one, but it certainly needs some serious tweaks.
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There's a big difference between offering constructive criticism about the direction of the sport and just being a dick and picking on little country skaters with less resources.
 
giselle23 said:
Not sure where he is coming from with Zagitova. Where is the stretch of the leg, the holding out of positions, the beautiful (and restrained) arm movements?
Click to expand...
a) "restrained" arm movements??? :rolleyes:.. fyi: different dance styles require different "arm movement dynamics".
b) as to your question "where.."? right there on the ice... just remove your "bias" glasses, and you will see it: in classical and modern programmes..... :D

https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20180212&t=2&i=1230618687&r=LYNXMPEE1B0J2

https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OLY_FIG_WOMEN_43_070726-780x520.jpg

https://images.unian.net/photos/2018_02/1519362632-1848.JPG?0.2928152436722593

https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20171104&t=2&i=1208387956&r=LYNXMPEDA30HA

https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/media:5c75e1168ce748bda6d84b0d5a75f8a9/800.jpeg

http://md1.libe.com/photo/1098654-l...vrier-20.jpg?modified_at=1519213505&width=960

http://visualrian.ru/images/0000/5932/13/000059321380_RIAN-ID-3265730.jpg

https://sdelanounas.ru/i/y/2/r/Y2Ru...yMDE3MDMxOC80NDYwMjM5LmpwZz9fX2lkPTkxNTU1.jpg

http://stuki-druki.com/biofoto/Alina-Zagitova-03.jpg
 
Meoima said:
Same old complaints that the current classical musicians aren’t as artistic as the much older classical musicians. Lol the current one has better technique for sure.
Click to expand...

As a classical pianist, I would say the current pianists play lesser wrong notes because we expect people to sound like recordings, but by no means do they have better technique. Listen to Lazar Berman rage through Liszt's Transcendental Etudes and no living pianist stands a chance. Not even Horowitz thought he was a better pianist than Rachmaninoff, and I don't think a single living pianist think they have a better technique than good old Sergei. Any of today's violinists can outdo Heifetz technically? Don't think so.

In a way, skating is blessed to really have different schools of thought (or maybe they don't I really know more about piano than skating lol), and it's good for the sport that people love/hate different things. The streamlining of classical musicians today is a problem in my opinion.
 
Tinami Amori said:
a) "restrained" arm movements??? :rolleyes:.. fyi: different dance styles require different "arm movement dynamics".
b) as to your question "where.."? right there on the ice... just remove your "bias" glasses, and you will see it: in classical and modern programmes..... :D

https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20180212&t=2&i=1230618687&r=LYNXMPEE1B0J2

https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/OLY_FIG_WOMEN_43_070726-780x520.jpg

https://images.unian.net/photos/2018_02/1519362632-1848.JPG?0.2928152436722593

https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20171104&t=2&i=1208387956&r=LYNXMPEDA30HA

https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/media:5c75e1168ce748bda6d84b0d5a75f8a9/800.jpeg

http://md1.libe.com/photo/1098654-l...vrier-20.jpg?modified_at=1519213505&width=960

http://visualrian.ru/images/0000/5932/13/000059321380_RIAN-ID-3265730.jpg

https://sdelanounas.ru/i/y/2/r/Y2Ru...yMDE3MDMxOC80NDYwMjM5LmpwZz9fX2lkPTkxNTU1.jpg

http://stuki-druki.com/biofoto/Alina-Zagitova-03.jpg
Click to expand...

Restrained: kept in check or under control. Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISV1Rgd1ofA
 
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