David Wilson Calls for New Leadership at Skate Canada

[skatingguy]

I think that's an assumption on your part based on the actual words that were written. 'Canada's mentality as a nation' means everyone, not just what institutions have done. And again, it just reads as another post about how Canada cares so much versus others who, as a whole, supposedly don't (almost always the US). Canada's mentality as a nation has not been 100% to sit at home and do nothing, very obviously. But I'll keep reading blanket statements that suggest such. You know this isn't the first time these kinds of statements have been made, even if you interpreted this particular one differently

'Canada's mentality as a nation' is nonsense statement that doesn't mean anything because political entities don't have thoughts, and so I was ignoring that and was focusing on the discussion point of the thread which is the decision of Skate Canada to cancel competitions. Canadians have a tendency to focus on comparisons to the US that put us in a positive light, and it's a bad habit & I appreciate that you've called them out in this thread.

 

[Rock2]

The issue to me is bigger than anything Wilson or Hersch has said.

The net reaction to nationals being cancelled was the culmination of the ongoing frustrations among the Canadian skating community that the federation has not appeared to be engaged in developing its athletes through ingenious training assistance or creation of competitive opportunity. Said another way, our skaters have had to persevere in spite of the federation, and less in partnership with them, in contrast to what we see from other federations.

Part of the issue may go back to how Skate Canada has over the last generation been wired. While it claims to be about many things, it has historically prioritized grassroots skating and membership as its income stream. High Performance is a distant second.

Sadly, with many sports the cash comes rolling in through TV and sponsorships when you produce medal-winning household names. There just isn't the resources the pump into High Performance, nor a sense of urgency there. SC is hunkering down until rinks open again and they can collect their annual membership dues and CANskate fees. In the meantime, other federations are ramping up their athletes to kill it in Beijing only a year away.

 

[Colonel Green]

The issue to me is bigger than anything Wilson or Hersch has said.

The net reaction to nationals being cancelled was the culmination of the ongoing frustrations among the Canadian skating community that the federation has not appeared to be engaged in developing its athletes through ingenious training assistance or creation of competitive opportunity. Said another way, our skaters have had to persevere in spite of the federation, and less in partnership with them, in contrast to what we see from other federations.

Part of the issue may go back to how Skate Canada has over the last generation been wired. While it claims to be about many things, it has historically prioritized grassroots skating and membership as its income stream. High Performance is a distant second.

Sadly, with many sports the cash comes rolling in through TV and sponsorships when you produce medal-winning household names. There just isn't the resources the pump into High Performance, nor a sense of urgency there. SC is hunkering down until rinks open again and they can collect their annual membership dues and CANskate fees. In the meantime, other federations are ramping up their athletes to kill it in Beijing only a year away.

A number of posts here have argued the opposite, that Skate Canada prioritizes high performance over ordinary membership.

 

[Lil Sarah]

A number of posts here have argued the opposite, that Skate Canada prioritizes high performance over ordinary membership.

I can’t speak to Skate Canada’s priorities, but I assume Skate Ontario was following their lead. When all of the sections joined to make one provincial body, they also eliminated 80% of competitions. There are no more local or regional competitions for the recreational competitor. If you are lucky enough to have a competition or two within a 2 hour drive, the entry fees have doubled at least. I’d say Skate Ontario is definitely doing nothing for grassroots skating

 

[mackiecat]

I can’t speak to Skate Canada’s priorities, but I assume Skate Ontario was following their lead. When all of the sections joined to make one provincial body, they also eliminated 80% of competitions. There are no more local or regional competitions for the recreational competitor. If you are lucky enough to have a competition or two within a 2 hour drive, the entry fees have doubled at least. I’d say Skate Ontario is definitely doing nothing for grassroots skating

You are definitely exaggerating about the number of competition in Skate Ontario. Here are the results from 2019 which shows every competition held in 2019. If this is only 20% of the previously held competitions, there would have been no physical way to staff these missing competitions https://skateontario.org/results-archive/?y=2019

 

[overedge]

A number of posts here have argued the opposite, that Skate Canada prioritizes high performance over ordinary membership.

The two are connected. When the grassroots are ignored, the $$$$ from that source start to drop, and that means less $$$$ to support high performance programs. And fewer skaters at higher levels to benefit from those programs.

 

[Colonel Green]

The two are connected. When the grassroots are ignored, the $$$$ from that source start to drop, and that means less $$$$ to support high performance programs. And fewer skaters at higher levels to benefit from those programs.

Sure, but if they’re grassroots focused (as was asserted above) then that should be filtering upward in the manner described.

 

[Rock2]

A number of posts here have argued the opposite, that Skate Canada prioritizes high performance over ordinary membership.

When I interviewed with them for a senior role not too many years ago, they were pretty clear this was the priority as they pitched to me the strategic vision. I understand the importance but felt they had a missed opportunity.

I have over the years spoken with high-performance athletes who have said that SC doesn't help them with much other than sending them to competitions, nor do they even ask how they can help. I can't say this is an across the board practice - recall the emergency meeting when Patrick Chan was coming off the rails in the fall of 2017.

I have also spoken to employees there who have admitted that events like high performance camp are a gong show of coordination - many things hastily thrown together at the last minute and not much investment of energy and resources in the overall experience of the athlete. Maybe it has improved recently - not sure.

What apparently is done well is the annual meeting - presentations and seminars that top athletes as well as coaches, etc are invited to.

So...not here to say no focus on high performance. Mike is definitely out there doing stuff. But outside of a few initiatives, it's not quite like other countries who strategize how to maximize results for skater X and then engage to support and generate that result.

Update: in fairness to Skate Canada, sponsorship and TV $ for the overall sport is drying up, which makes membership very important. They do drive almost $10M in membership revenue each year and it's increasing. You do want to fight to hold that when everything else is depleting. TV and sponsorship income is really low; there are things in SC control to improve that but part of the issue is out of their control as it is a function of the sport.

 

[Judy]

False false false.

These posts continue to come up and it’s not reality just because you personally choose to act with caution.

Broken record all over this board but in many places in the US, people either had to go back to some kind of work or didn’t get unemployment benefits or the benefits ended or whatever. Of course not everyone was in this situation, but plenty of people were. Canadians were given much more government support and their numbers shot up quickly as well, so what’s the excuse there? Surely not that everyone acts with caution as a nation.

Try again.

Trump is a murderer in my little Canadian opinion.

 

[sap5]

The issue to me is bigger than anything Wilson or Hersch has said.

The net reaction to nationals being cancelled was the culmination of the ongoing frustrations among the Canadian skating community that the federation has not appeared to be engaged in developing its athletes through ingenious training assistance or creation of competitive opportunity. Said another way, our skaters have had to persevere in spite of the federation, and less in partnership with them, in contrast to what we see from other federations.

Part of the issue may go back to how Skate Canada has over the last generation been wired. While it claims to be about many things, it has historically prioritized grassroots skating and membership as its income stream. High Performance is a distant second.

Sadly, with many sports the cash comes rolling in through TV and sponsorships when you produce medal-winning household names. There just isn't the resources the pump into High Performance, nor a sense of urgency there. SC is hunkering down until rinks open again and they can collect their annual membership dues and CANskate fees. In the meantime, other federations are ramping up their athletes to kill it in Beijing only a year away.

So at the past Olympics, Canada had medal winners in every discipline (if you count Patrick's team medal). Yet none of that converted into tv or sponsorships. That tells me the problem is much deeper.

 

[tony]

Trump is a murderer in my little Canadian opinion.

Well your ‘little Canadian opinion’, as you call it, should maybe work on focusing on the problems in your country (as you’re always chiming in about the US in some way) and finding out why your numbers shifted upwards so much when you were all following rules so perfectly.

 

[Judy]

Well your ‘little Canadian opinion’, as you call it, should maybe work on focusing on the problems in your country (as you’re always chiming in about the US in some way) and finding out why your numbers shifted upwards so much when you were all following rules so perfectly.

Well I personally follow the rules as my family and friends do. I can’t control other people. But I’ve never not supported the U.S. with getting rid of Trump so I have no idea what is motivating your comment on me. Please let me know how you think I can personally figure out what’s driving our numbers up though?

My city has been good with their numbers .. so far. That can change.

 

[mjb52]

I don't like the weird competition aspect of this that has developed and consider it pretty unhealthy and something that detracts from putting the focus where it should be - on people's well-being and the well-being of their larger societies, but it does fascinate me, given all the talk here, that Canada and Russia have pretty similar per capita numbers (Canada slightly worse, but not notably so).

I am wondering if the larger issue with skating in North America is just cultural. I think there are cultural shifts in the US and Canada that are reflected in the aging of figure skating's audience. Tony's point here or elsewhere (I am not sure which thread) about the conservatism of the sport is relevant. It's hard because I personally really like classical music and the 90's style of dance and pairs (not as much singles) but at the same time I recognize that the sport needs to consider why it is struggling to attract a younger audience in some traditional skating strongholds.

 

[skategal]

why your numbers shifted upwards so much when you were all following rules so perfectly.

It's as you said.

Once the funding and support runs out, people have to return to work.

Even with the support, there was always a segment of the population that had to be on the front lines of this thing.

Add in a dose of CV fatigue, imperfect humans who break rules, and politicians who want to reopen the economy too early and cases go up.

Canada did well in Wave 1 when politicians at all levels were united in their support to stay home and the funding was there to do so.

It was not as well in Wave 2.

But I do think having a public health care system to protect (wave 1 and late Wave 2) was a rallying point in Canada that the USA didn't have.

 

[overedge]

I would be interested to know what strategic goal Skate Canada was supporting with its recent revisions to CanSkate (learn to skate), because I have not met too many coaches or club executives who think these were a good idea. The impression I get is that the passing standards for each level/element are either too weak or that what's supposed to be assessed is not a good indicator of whether the skater has really learned the skill(s).

I also get the impression that the revisions are intended to identify the more promising skaters and weed out the rest. If this is the effect, intended or not, this is not going to encourage skaters to stay in the SC system.

Another issue is CanSkate versus rinks' own learn to skate programs. In many parts of the country, municipal and civic rinks have learn to skate programs that are not CanSkate. I fully understand SC wanting to maintain standards in its own programs, and to try to be the preferred provider of learn-to-skate programs. But I've been told that SC is not very cooperative about working with these other programs, e.g. not grandfathering students who finished the rink program into an appropriate CanSkate level, or not letting the rink's students know of the opportunities at the next level at the SC club.

Since the civic and municipal learn-to-skate programs are generally a lot cheaper than CanSkate at an SC club, in my area at least a lot of potential future SC members are lost to those competing programs.

 

[Judy]

It's as you said.

Once the funding and support runs out, people have to return to work.

Even with the support, there was always a segment of the population that had to be on the front lines of this thing.

Add in a dose of CV fatigue, imperfect humans who break rules, and politicians who want to reopen the economy too early and cases go up.

Canada did well in Wave 1 when politicians at all levels were united in their support to stay home and the funding was there to do so.

It was not as well in Wave 2.

But I do think having a public health care system to protect (wave 1 and late Wave 2) was a rallying point in Canada that the USA didn't have.

A lot of people are working from home .. but unemployment is at record numbers too. Plus our deficits which we will be paying for for your years.

 

[MsZem]

There is a reason why the U.S. has nearly twice as many confirmed *********-19 deaths per capita as Canada. Canada's mentality as a nation is one based on caution and listening and believing our health care leaders & politicians in addition to our health care system. Skate Canada is merely a reflection of that mentality.

There are countries in the world that are not the US or Canada. Some of those countries have successfully held sporting events, including indoor ones such as skating competitions.

There have been other criticisms re Skate Canada in this thread. Some seem compelling to me, but that's another matter.

 

[4rkidz]

There are countries in the world that are not the US or Canada. Some of those countries have successfully held sporting events, including indoor ones such as skating competitions.

There have been other criticisms re Skate Canada in this thread. Some seem compelling to me, but that's another matter.

oh those countries didnt close their rinks and stop training?

 

[Frau Muller]

The above discussion makes me wonder about the possible correlation of *****-containment success and figure-skating-countries with high percentage of immigrants.
Maybe high-immigration countries have more people traveling across borders to visit family or friends and, hence, spreading the ***** more?

I was betting that the US and Canada would be #s 1 and 2...US is #1 but Canada is #8. Guess who’s #3? Russia. So much for my connection on immigration & containment (unless countries’ containment figures are fudged).

See the bottom half of the U.N. study below on % of immigrant populations...specifically, top 10 countries with highest number of immigrants.

Top 10 Countries With The Largest Immigrant Populations - MoverDB.com

Map created by Stephen Bain via Wikimedia

moverdb.com

Highest-immigration countries ( the top-10 list in the study):

1. USA
2. Germany
3. Russia
4. Saudi Arabia...non-skating
5. UK
6. UAR...non-skating...well, not significantly
7. France
8. Canada
9. Australia
10. Spain

I suppose that the next step is to compare the above with a list of countries with the highest spread of the ******. USA on top, for sure...but Brazil is not on that list, so we can’t blame their high ****** percentages on traveling citizens (but maybe travelers visiting Brazil on vacation).

Perhaps the most homogeneous populations - notably, Asian countries - have been most successful in containing spread of ****** ? Not sure. It’s all fascinating, yet sad.

 

[MsZem]

oh those countries didnt close their rinks and stop training?

What does that have to do with holding events safely during this time?

By now it is clear that it is possible to hold skating competitions and other sporting events without endangering the health of those involved. Skate Canada couldn’t, or wouldn't, take the necessary steps to do so - but this doesn't make skating events in the time of CV inherently unsafe.

Unless your concern is that events cannot be held safely because some people are undertrained and will get injured, I really don't see what your arguments have to do with what I wrote.

 

[Judy]

Does Canada have any hope for a medal at the winter olympics? Top 10 etc? I really haven’t been keeping up with skating for a few years.

 

[skategal]

Does Canada have any hope for a medal at the winter olympics? Top 10 etc? I really haven’t been keeping up with skating for a few years.

Hope for a Team medal.

But that’s about it.

I expect a few will finish in the top 7-10 (Dance, Pairs, maybe Men.)

 

[mackiecat]

Hope for a Team medal.

But that’s about it.

I expect a few will finish in the top 7-10 (Dance, Pairs, maybe Men.)

Canada has an outside chance in dance and perhaps pair

 

[Frau Muller]

Canada has an outside chance in dance and perhaps pair

Exactly my thought...maybe-maybe a bronze for Piper & Paul, if everything aligns.
Edited to add:
All the more reason why it would be a crying shame if they wouldn’t be able to compete at 2021 Worlds next month to set the path for the 2022 Olympics...maybe go into the Olympics with4th or even a bronze. It was looking that way a year ago, before 2020 Worlds were cancelled...I had them pegged for a surprise bronze then, even with the French competing, I loved both of their programs that much.

 

[Mont]

So...not here to say no focus on high performance. Mike is definitely out there doing stuff. But outside of a few initiatives, it's not quite like other countries who strategize how to maximize results for skater X and then engage to support and generate that result.

Update: in fairness to Skate Canada, sponsorship and TV $ for the overall sport is drying up, which makes membership very important. They do drive almost $10M in membership revenue each year and it's increasing. You do want to fight to hold that when everything else is depleting. TV and sponsorship income is really low; there are things in SC control to improve that but part of the issue is out of their control as it is a function of the sport.

Think this is accurate. However, I think a lot of it comes from complacency. Love him or not, there was a lot of development under David Dore. He leaves, there is a hangover for a little while with athletes developed under his watch doing well and they retire and then a slump. Think 2004 worlds in Dortmund where best finish in each event was 8th. Marginally better in 2005 thanks to Jeff Buttle being back on the team and getting a medal but he really was the lone bright spot. 2006, major leadership shake up. CEO and President changed. New management and heavy investment in athletes from 2006 to around 2012 so strong results. Fortunately generally a young team so were able to hang on through 2014 and 2018 but already by 2014, it was obvious that there were issues. Those who took over in 2013 and 2014 were used to good results, thought it was easy but it turns out it isn't and they don't have skill set to fix the situation. Now that generation of athletes are mostly retired and there is a void. Back to more or less where we were in 2004.

As for high performance vs membership, I think its really important to remember that high performance helps (isn't sole factor but helps) to drive membership. I wanted to skate after watching some amazing athletes on TV, some of whom were Canadian.

 

[pat c]

Another view as to how a sport will hold it's national championships in Canada, Curling Canada is adamant the bubble setting will be "strictly enforced," and curlers will not be seeing much light of day as they travel from hotel, to vehicle, to arena and back.

Ladies and the men's (which will be held in March) will do a virtual lock down in the hotel/curling rink for at least 10 days. It is doable from a financial point of view as there will be 50 curlers, plus coaches, so another 10. It starts tonight in Calgary. Yes there will be officials, but not banks of judges/accountants etc.

The provincial playoffs for curling were all cancelled. They just used the rinks they sent last year for the most part. One of the major differences between this sport and skating for instance, is these are all adults.

I can see both sides for holding or not holding skating nats. As for the leadership, that's another argument.

I feel for the skaters. I feel sorry for myself as a fan, cuz I certainly would have loved to have seen skating in Jan. But it's something new to debate rather than politics. Yes?

 

[Judy]

Exactly my thought...maybe-maybe a bronze for Piper & Paul, if everything aligns.
Edited to add:
All the more reason why it would be a crying shame if they wouldn’t be able to compete at 2021 Worlds next month to set the path for the 2022 Olympics...maybe go into the Olympics with4th or even a bronze. It was looking that way a year ago, before 2020 Worlds were cancelled...I had them pegged for a surprise bronze then, even with the French competing, I loved both of their programs that much.

I can’t disagree with you they are a very talented team. Covid just absolutely sucks.

 

[Judy]

Think this is accurate. However, I think a lot of it comes from complacency. Love him or not, there was a lot of development under David Dore. He leaves, there is a hangover for a little while with athletes developed under his watch doing well and they retire and then a slump. Think 2004 worlds in Dortmund where best finish in each event was 8th. Marginally better in 2005 thanks to Jeff Buttle being back on the team and getting a medal but he really was the lone bright spot. 2006, major leadership shake up. CEO and President changed. New management and heavy investment in athletes from 2006 to around 2012 so strong results. Fortunately generally a young team so were able to hang on through 2014 and 2018 but already by 2014, it was obvious that there were issues. Those who took over in 2013 and 2014 were used to good results, thought it was easy but it turns out it isn't and they don't have skill set to fix the situation. Now that generation of athletes are mostly retired and there is a void. Back to more or less where we were in 2004.

As for high performance vs membership, I think its really important to remember that high performance helps (isn't sole factor but helps) to drive membership. I wanted to skate after watching some amazing athletes on TV, some of whom were Canadian.

Yes I remember David Dore well! He has passed away too .

 

[4rkidz]

False false false.

These posts continue to come up and it’s not reality just because you personally choose to act with caution.

Broken record all over this board but in many places in the US, people either had to go back to some kind of work or didn’t get unemployment benefits or the benefits ended or whatever. Of course not everyone was in this situation, but plenty of people were. Canadians were given much more government support and their numbers shot up quickly as well, so what’s the excuse there? Surely not that everyone acts with caution as a nation.

Try again.

Whats all the false nonsense? The *** numbers are not false. Where do say I personally act anything?
The reality is the reality... Canadians are more compliant, as a Brit it was one of the first things i noted when we moved here. Major institutions in Canada closed, our airlines stopped. Rinks closed, our local rink that has national skaters opens tomorrow having been closed since mid December. Not sure what excuses you are talking about? I was ambivalent either way about Nationals but i understood the logic. I merely reflected on the cultural differences and why the response from Skate Canada was in keeping with that thought process.

 

[tony]

Whats all the false nonsense? The *** numbers are not false. Where do say I personally act anything?
The reality is the reality... Canadians are more compliant, as a Brit it was one of the first things i noted when we moved here. Major institutions in Canada closed, our airlines stopped. Rinks closed, our local rink that has national skaters opens tomorrow having been closed since mid December. Not sure what excuses you are talking about? I was ambivalent either way about Nationals but i understood the logic. I merely reflected on the cultural differences and why the response from Skate Canada was in keeping with that thought process.

You generalized a whole nation to be one that acts with caution and follows whatever the government says. How you can write these words now after you experienced a big boom in cases when everyone was supposedly staying home and behaving is beyond me. And to top that off, Canadians got many more benefits and incentives to actually stay home than most countries. Come to Florida and experience what it's like to be living in a place where the Governor stopped the unemployment money and reopened everything: your choice is go work or don't pay your bills and end up struggling even more. Then shall we talk? Shall we compare numbers to a place like Russia, where several Canadians on this board constantly try to remind us just how awful and careless that entire country is? The government may have shut down things like rinks, but you are flat-out delusional if you think all Canadians are just these perfectly well-behaved people who cannot do any wrong while comparing to other countries.

You and your friends all choose to lock yourselves up at home and follow all the rules? Congratulations- that's you and your sample that you're extending to the entire population. But people all over the world got bored, and they became more risk-prone in their actions. Canadians are included in that. Sorry about it.