Big Brother 21

TanithandBenFan

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I dont think Holly has been a beast in comps. One of the two HOHs she won was rolling a ball, and she hasn't won any vetoes or Whacktivity comps.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Yeah, I don’t know that it’s going to help Tommy’s game at all if he does make it to the end, but maybe he thinks he can get in with Jackson and Holly, at least for this eviction. Remember Tommy (to a quieter extent) and then Christie were the ones that really blew up the 6 all because of other people supposedly knowing each other.

I’m really hoping for the Nicole POV win just to cause an awkward situation, but now that Jackson is really catering to her (giving her the HOH bedroom, picking music for her), I doubt she will use it anyways and they will assure her Tommy is going.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Nicole said last night she wins veto she would take Cliff off.
I wonder if we maybe didn’t see some thinking ahead on Cliff’s part and he already has it all figured out. I wouldn’t doubt it. But would they actually go after Holly anyways? Cliff has wanted Tommy out forever, but we did see him scheming during the few minutes of the double to suggest Christie needed to go.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Spoiler



Nicole won veto. She said she’s using it even though cliff told her not to. They NEED to vote Holly out. Look at her coming on strong at the end.

ETA- if holly goes, Jackson can’t play in the next HOH and even though the veto is the important part, Cliff and Nicole really could pull Tommy in at this point and try for a F3 with him. Jackson knows this and Holly said she wasn’t even trying to win veto really. Dumb.
 

vanillashake

Banned Member
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270
Nicole won veto. She said she’s using it even though cliff told her not to. They NEED to vote Holly out. Look at her coming on strong at the end.

ETA- if holly goes, Jackson can’t play in the next HOH and even though the veto is the important part, Cliff and Nicole really could pull Tommy in at this point and try for a F3 with him. Jackson knows this and Holly said she wasn’t even trying to win veto really. Dumb.
In one sense with the big reveal Tommy now sort of becomes a goat so in theory this should be a good plan. The flip side though is if Nicole/Cliff betray Holly/Jackson I am sure both vote Tommy over both Nicole/Cliff for sure now even after the reveal, and I am sure Christie/Sis/Jack all still would so both would lose to Tommy in a F2 then as that is 5 votes minimum even with most of the jury probably pissed about the reveal. I guess they don't have a better choice though, their options are limited even with things going well for them.
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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SO HAPPY for Nicole beasting the BB Comics veto. Sounds like Tommy came in second with Michie close behind him. She and Cliff just discussed all the scenarios and they mentioned how it wouldn't really help them to boot Holly now because she and Michie would both be pissed at them and consequently wouldn't vote for them in the end. They just have to kill it in the veto, which I think is often the remembering days one. If so, Nicole and Cliff definitely have a good shot at it.
 

vanillashake

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SO HAPPY for Nicole beasting the BB Comics veto. Sounds like Tommy came in second with Michie close behind him. She and Cliff just discussed all the scenarios and they mentioned how it wouldn't really help them to boot Holly now because she and Michie would both be pissed at them and consequently wouldn't vote for them in the end. They just have to kill it in the veto, which I think is often the remembering days one. If so, Nicole and Cliff definitely have a good shot at it.
They obviously thought of the scenario I just broke down. Tommy would have 3 votes (Christie, Jack, Sis) guaranteed no matter what. There isn't a chance on earth any of those don't vote Tommy, especialy over Nicole or Cliff. So if he is guaranteed Jackson and Holly too now (after they are betrayed) neither would stand a chance against him in a Final 2 which means going to Final 3 with him (and probably with Jackson too) they need to win the final HOH since even if they are taken they are losing for certain.

I would definitely split up Holly/Jackson but I can see the logic in not doing it.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Cliff’s main stress is Tommy playing in HOH and veto next week as opposed to Holly. I think he’s not even worried about the veto part as much as Tommy winning HOH and saving himself, getting him into the top 3.

And yeah isn’t the final 4 HOH comp where they have the evicted houseguests read long statements and something possibly isn’t right (ie. I did this on day 53 and I was on the block five times)? And then the veto last year was the wall thing with putting things in order (??) that Kaycee won.

Seeing how Holly didn’t even think about the possibility of going home this week during the veto comp, it may be better to keep her around after all 😆

ETA- or is the final 3 HOH final segment the one with the days and the houseguest statements? I don’t remember but what competition JC won last year but now I’m thinking it was true or false statements.
 
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vanillashake

Banned Member
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270
Cliff’s main stress is Tommy playing in HOH and veto next week as opposed to Holly. I think he’s not even worried about the veto part as much as Tommy winning HOH and saving himself, getting him into the top 3.
I don't understand why that would even be such a big worry though. Seriously I don't get this cast at all. Awful dumb group all around. Another season like the last 3 and I am done with Big Brother, the show has never been worse.
 

Tony Wheeler

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I don't understand why that would even be such a big worry though. Seriously I don't get this cast at all. Awful dumb group all around. Another season like the last 3 and I am done with Big Brother, the show has never been worse.
Someone commented on a post I made in a Facebook group saying Cliff is pushing for Tommy to leave because apparently he has a final 3 deal with Holly and Michie, which, to me, would read as him throwing the veto next week so that he wouldn’t have to evict Nicole (of course as long as she’s not HOH).

Does anyone know if this was an actual (recent) discussion and I missed it? Or did he say it to save himself and now he’s going to sit back and let everyone else do everything?
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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I thought Cliff, Hollie, and Michie were part of some "Southern Alliance" way back in the day but I didn't think it was seriously taken.
 

vanillashake

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Someone commented on a post I made in a Facebook group saying Cliff is pushing for Tommy to leave because apparently he has a final 3 deal with Holly and Michie, which, to me, would read as him throwing the veto next week so that he wouldn’t have to evict Nicole (of course as long as she’s not HOH).

Does anyone know if this was an actual (recent) discussion and I missed it? Or did he say it to save himself and now he’s going to sit back and let everyone else do everything?
That is laughable. He literally wants to go to Final 3 with a power couple and showmance who beast competitions, and who NEVER take him over each other, and who both might beat him in a Final 2 over someone he probably beats and would be loyal to him first (Nicole) and now someone else who might be and after the big reveal he might also now be able to beat (Tommy). Well probably still loses to Tommy even now, but wanting Nicole out at 4 and wanting Final 3 with Holly/Jackson is dumb. Maybe he thinks they will view him as a goat and even vote out their showmance and take him, but if he thinks that he is delusional from the private conversations they are having where Jackson says he doesn't think he would beat Cliff in a Final 2. He would never take Cliff over Holly, and vice versa.

Like I said dumbest cast ever.

And I also wouldn't be surprised if this is all really true if they screw Cliff over and take Nicole who is much less of a threat and Jackson has became very close with and closer than he is to Cliff anyway.
 

vanillashake

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270
I thought Cliff, Hollie, and Michie were part of some "Southern Alliance" way back in the day but I didn't think it was seriously taken.
They were but given that Jackson/Holly were part of voting Cliff out on like Day 30 in a close vote it was obviously a BS alliance at that point.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Nicole told the cameras that, after all, she wants to get Holly out (of course she will probably change her mind 20 times by Thursday). I guess this shows Cliff’s cards, because he could always go against her and split the vote, in which Jackson would obviously keep Holly. I guess that would be the leverage Cliff needs with Holly and Jackson for them to choose to keep him if one were to get veto.
 

vanillashake

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270
Nicole told the cameras that, after all, she wants to get Holly out (of course she will probably change her mind 20 times by Thursday). I guess this shows Cliff’s cards, because he could always go against her and split the vote, in which Jackson would obviously keep Holly. I guess that would be the leverage Cliff needs with Holly and Jackson for them to choose to keep him if one were to get veto.
Nicole needs to push the idea on Cliff. If they pussy out here I actually want a Jackson/Holly Final 2 and fully expect it.
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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I can see the pros and cons of keeping either Tommy or Holly. I think Holly is easier to beat in the HOH and veto, but of course she is an automatic F3 if Michie wins veto. Tommy might agree to boot Michie if he wins veto, but can he be 100% trusted to do so? With all his whining about wanting to get the six back together, I could see him keeping Michie after all even if he does make a deal with Nicole/Cliff. I don't think either decision that Nicole/Cliff ultimately make this week should be considered dumb because it's impossible to know how the veto will shakeout and more importantly what Tommy would do if the power is in his hands.
 

vanillashake

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I think Tommy would be loyal to Nicole and Cliff if they save him. He has been bonding with Nicole imparticular. I think he also knows either Nicole and Cliff would be easy for him to beat in a Final 2, and while he would have to win F3 HOH he probably has to anyway other than maybe Nicole would take him over Jackson, and he has a better shot beating the 2 of them than Jackson for that too.
 

vanillashake

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270
Cliff and Nicole seem ready to send Holly home except that idiot Tommy is making it difficult since when they asked him a couple times if he had some kind of deal with Holly and Jackson he keeps saying "I can't answer that now." He does not realize he is being given a huge gift and opportunity to be kept in the game even as probably the biggest jury threat, and he is making it difficult for Cliff/Nicole to trust he would go after Jackson. He could even lie about it, such a bad player apart from being a good social player.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Spoiler


It does look like they have Holly out the door, and I know Nicole has been trying to work Tommy to try to target Michie as out at 4, and that would be best-case scenario for her game. I don’t see any way a final 3 with Cliff, Tommy, and Nicole doesn’t result in her in the finals.

And PS- Holly going to jury gives her time to spill about Christie and Tommy, as they were the two that blew up her game with Kat. At this point, I think Nicole has the numbers anyways against Tommy if that ends up the final 2.
 

vanillashake

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Nicole would never beat Tommy in a Final 2 now. Jack, Sis, Christie would be guaranteed to vote him, if you think Sis or Jack who don't like Nicole at all would ever vote her over Tommy even if they were upset about the Christie news you are batshit crazy. If Jack was pissed (which I don't think he would be) then he might vote Cliff or Jackson over Tommy now, but never Nicole. And Holly and Jackson would NEVER vote Nicole over Tommy if they boot Holly. Holly was never going to anyway, while Jackson might have been 50/50 before. I honestly think Tommy would win something like 8-1 with only either Cliff or Nicole voting her. However even if Kat, Jess, Nick were pissed at the news to ensure not voting Tommy it wouldn't matter since the 5 I mentioned always will. I actually think Jess is a lock for Tommy since she is in love with Christie and will want to make her happy, news or no news. And Nick will wind up voting Tommy since he has been in jury house with Jack/Sis (their mutual besties) for weeks and is a creepy closeted bi who wants to screw Tommy's lights out after the game, LOL! Lastly if Holly and Jackson would be rooting for Tommy to win now as I am sure they would be, it is unlikely they spill the news anyway, although Christie already might have anyway.

I would happily bet you $1000 for only a mere $100 return that Tommy would win a Nicole-Tommy Final 2. If you really think that put your money where your mouth is and just remember every prediction I made the last 2 seasons was right and the only times you were right was when you agreed with me, while each time you didn't you were wrong as recently as being sure Tommy would go on the DE when I told you that you were crazy and he would never be booted over Christie even if they were up together. My tennis predictions often suck but my Big Brother prediction rate is amazing over the year, I even called Nicole beating Paul. And I called the Ian over Dan drubbing beforehand. The last time I got a big prediction wrong was I thought Porsche would beat Rachel 4-3, but that was even knowing Rachel had 3 locked votes and Porsche had 2 shaky ones (Shelli and Adam I thought).

I also strongly bet Cliff would beat Nicole in a Final 2. Although unlike Tommy I wouldn't bet money on that one, as I don't feel as strongly about it, but still fairly sure Cliff would win. I think Tommy would still beat Cliff but that too I don't feel strongly enough to be willing to bet money, but Nicole-Tommy I would absolutely bet lots of money on.
 
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Tony Wheeler

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Jackson seems to know that Holly is on her way out at this point and I'm sure he's going to respect the move. He figured it out as soon as Nicole won veto and said something to the extent of 'that would be the smart thing to do' while Holly was clueless and rambling about how she didn't even try to win. In all honesty, her exit might even be a relief for him because she's coming completely unhinged with her emotions now.

With that said, a Tommy and Nicole final 2, especially if Nicole wins any of the stuff left, and she might be able to pull it off. Cliff and Kat are for sure votes for her. I think Jessica could be, but seeing how clueless she was even with her exit interview, you never know. Nick is a toss-up but in the end I think he'd also give it to her (maybe guilt for how nasty he especially was, and they were close anyways for his last few weeks). Then you have Jackson and especially Holly, who were thrown out of their own alliance in a way because of the Kat/Holly connection, now have time in jury (well at least Holly does) to call Christie out for acting crazy when she had the Tommy connection. Tommy was also a big part in that whole blow-up, not freaking out but obviously acting like it was a huge betrayal.

Tommy is now even saying he is willing to throw the HOH to Cliff or Nicole because he feels confident in winning the veto. And if he does that and sends Jackson packing, what makes you think that he would be more bitter at Nicole or Cliff? I don't think the move would build Tommy's resume one bit-- he just keeps his for sure votes. And you know Jackson won't keep his mouth shut in jury if Tommy is the one who sends him there.

But then again, the only way it's probably a Tommy and Nicole final 2 is if Tommy wins that final HOH.
 

Tony Wheeler

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My big question is if Tommy really does throw the HOH, then is it really coming down to Tommy and Jackson for that third spot? Obviously one of Nicole or Cliff will be safe, but is there any situation where the other one goes home?

It almost seems to me like Tommy is trying a F4 Survivor tactic that has been tried/done a few times including the most recent season, where he wants to be the one to take Michie out-- who he may think is most likely to win.
 

vanillashake

Banned Member
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270
Kat is NOT a locked Nicole vote at all. She and Nicole were never close, even during their brief time aligned there was lots of tension between them and she called Nicole Nick's bitch, and largely blames Nicole for her eviction. She is at best 50/50. Given that she has been hanging out in jury house with Jack and Sis as the first 3 jurors and you know they are pushing Tommy and Christie on her, and the jury videos the 3 were getting along super well I think she probably votes Tommy actually. If she doesn't it is probably since she learns about Christie/Tommy and the hypocricy pisses her off.

Nick would only vote Nicole if he was still bitter at Tommy. He was closer to Tommy than anyone until Tommy told him he didn't have his vote to stay over Christie. If he ever found out about their relationship that would actually explain that away too. He was super bitter at Tommy when he was booted but that is almost a month ago now. And again Jack/Sis are his closest friends in jury. He definitely does not want to lose his friendships with that whole group of people just for Nicole.

Just because Tommy says he would throw the HOH does not mean he would. I don't believe he would at all, he is saying what he needs now to be safe. And no Jackson would not be as bitter at Tommy as Cliff/Nicole since he has not had any deal with Tommy since Gr8tful broke up so Tommy would never be betraying him at this point anyway. And Holly atleast always liked Tommy much better than Nicole anyway.

Like I said put your money where your mouth is. I would happily bet you 1000$ Canadian for you if you are right, and 100$ Canadian for me if I am right that if a Tommy-Nicole Final 2 happens that Tommy wins. And I hate Tommy, but I am not dumb.

Lastly Cliff came out of the DR talking about Tommy as if he were a goat so I have no idea what bull they fed him in there, but I would not think it is even sure he takes Nicole over Tommy since the DR is working overboard on Tommy manipulation. and if he really thinks Tommy is easier to beat than Nicole (laughable but only what he thinks matters) then no way he takes Nicole. Cliff has not hesitated to thrown Nicole under the bus numerous times this game despite how close they are, and he was ready to evict her over Sam when it looked like she was going up with him instead of Kat, and he has numerous other times. He would not lessen his chances of 500k just to be a good friend to Nicole. The only way Cliff takes Nicole over Tommy is if he thinks she is still the easier opponent even after all the DR bull manipulative production and Grodrig (Grodner) will probably continue doing to keep saving Tommy if neccessary.

Lastly Tommy is an idiot who is all about his constant obsession with the cool kids so I honestly think he will make another deal with Jackson if he stays and keep Jackson over Nicole or Cliff at F4 if he has the vote regardless what he tells Nicole and Cliff now. He will make a seperate deal with Jackson they keep each other which Jackson might or might not honor, but Tommy likely will, as I said he has been all about his obsession over the former Gr8tful even with how many times they threw him under the bus as he is a complete tool and idiot at the game.

I think there is very much a situation Nicole or Cliff go home even if Tommy does not win HOH. Either Jackson or Tommy could save the other over Nicole/Cliff. Like I said I have no doubt Tommy will make a seperate deal with Jackson given his former cool kids obsession and Jackson would have every reason to want to break up Nicole/Cliff so I see no reason why he wouldn't especialy since it seems there is enough manipulation going around that Tommy is a goat, even you have been brainwashed and you haven't even had a DR session.
 
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vanillashake

Banned Member
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270
On another note while there are some valid reasons for Cliff/Nicole to make this move I am sure DR riggage was involved. Nicole was thinking about it initialy but Cliff was very much against it until there were a string of DRs and Nicole became more sold and Cliff was swayed. Typical Grodner riggage saving a production pet, even a nasty piece of crud like Tommy, ugh. That is why I am starting to hate this show.
 

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