Avanta Boot Labs Slam Karen Chen For Boot Problems

[VGThuy]

Circles of any kind are a waste of time anyway. Figure skating got rid of skaters forming circle shapes after the 1989-1990 season.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't skate, and I'd heard of them before this, although I didn't know Chen wore them.

The only skates I recognize on site, though, are the really bright shiny white ones.

 

[Willin]

This is the bit I am having trouble with. How are skaters who don’t live in California supposed to deal with their skates? Stuff happens all the time. Local skate techs need to be able to make adjustments.

OK, so based on @SNG's posts, Karen should have had Advanta do her blade mounting and management - my take from those posts is that they believe skaters should not go to "third parties" for this.

This is really what I'm confused about. One of the best things about my bootmaker was their network. When I said I was going to college in Michigan, they told me specifically who they knew that served that area and what rinks had skate pros they thought did good work. In fact, he wrote down specific sharpening/maintenance things (ie. screw lengths, models, materials used, etc.) for my boots that I could give to any skate pro to use in case I didn't have access to someone they knew.

If Avanta doesn't want other skate pros to work on their skates or claim that other skate pros may "ruin" the skates or cause them to break down faster, how do they expect people outside of the Bay Area to use their product? At the very least they should start "training" a few skate pros around the country to service Avantas. Especially for those skaters who only have one pair of skates, you can't take the time to ship them across the country, wait until the repairs are complete, and then have them shipped back. For things where you need to try the skate on to confirm the repairs/remounting will work out, that makes it even harder.

 

[soogar]

This is really what I'm confused about. One of the best things about my bootmaker was their network. When I said I was going to college in Michigan, they told me specifically who they knew that served that area and what rinks had skate pros they thought did good work. In fact, he wrote down specific sharpening/maintenance things (ie. screw lengths, models, materials used, etc.) for my boots that I could give to any skate pro to use in case I didn't have access to someone they knew.

If Avanta doesn't want other skate pros to work on their skates or claim that other skate pros may "ruin" the skates or cause them to break down faster, how do they expect people outside of the Bay Area to use their product? At the very least they should start "training" a few skate pros around the country to service Avantas. Especially for those skaters who only have one pair of skates, you can't take the time to ship them across the country, wait until the repairs are complete, and then have them shipped back. For things where you need to try the skate on to confirm the repairs/remounting will work out, that makes it even harder.

Maybe this type of boot was made and designed special for her. Not sure how many of Avanta's clients are skaters who would need a lightweight high performance boot of a top skater. Most skaters with foot problems would do fine in a custom boot that is a normal weight.

 

[BittyBug]

@Willin, I interpreted their comments to mean that they objected to (1) the blade never having been permanently mounted, which would have placed additional stress on the few screws that were in place and (2) the addition of a shim, which may have changed the way that the force of impact was absorbed by the boot. They may also just philosophically object to shims if they espouse the school of thought that they are never appropriate because they are not fixing the problem at the source - it's a patch not a solution.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

A little off topic, but I saw Jason and Karen skating on the same ice at Kings today. Jason was definitely cheering her up, it was great to see. Jason will always be Jason, bless his heart.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

whose sole purpose in life

I see what you did there.

 

[rvi5]

@Willin, I interpreted their comments to mean that they objected to (1) the blade never having been permanently mounted, which would have placed additional stress on the few screws that were in place and (2) the addition of a shim, which may have changed the way that the force of impact was absorbed by the boot. They may also just philosophically object to shims if they espouse the school of thought that they are never appropriate because they are not fixing the problem at the source - it's a patch not a solution.

They also objected that shims require longer screws to compensate for the added shim thickness. Since the original temporary screws does not penetrate deep enough into the boot bottom leather with a shim added, it would be easier for the sole to separate from the boot.

 

[Coco]

If only you can serve as technician for a boot, why outfit an Olympian unless you are sure you'll be at the Games?

 

[Yazmeen]

If only you can serve as technician for a boot, why outfit an Olympian unless you are sure you'll be at the Games?

Oh, snap!!!!

 

[Yazmeen]

And Advanta is erasing Facebook posts surrounding their Instagram post about parting ways with Karen. I know this because mine was one of several critical posts that have disappeared into the ether.

 

[VGThuy]

How very TSL of them. Maybe Avanta will give Dave an exclusive interview.

 

[meggonzo]

Funny, because I think a comment I made on TSL's post sharing Avanta's Instagram post was deleted. Of course, it could have been because I replied to someone's comment about Avanta's skater landing a triple axel with no mention of Mirai.

 

[Vagabond]

Sekret video footage of Avanta Boot Labs company meeting yesterday

Update

 

[Twizzler]

Interesting that the Avanta FB page still has several pictures and references to Karen on their site. One would think that if they want no association with her, they would remove all references to her.

Seems to me they don’t want to give up their association to an Olympian...

 

[Debbie S]

Maybe this type of boot was made and designed special for her. Not sure how many of Avanta's clients are skaters who would need a lightweight high performance boot of a top skater. Most skaters with foot problems would do fine in a custom boot that is a normal weight.

All of the major boot companies are offering a lightweight boot of some sort, both stock and custom, trying to compete with Edea. Different materials and construction, but all are trying to build a skate with new/better tech. Generally, what differentiates a particular company's boots for skaters at Karen's level and skaters like me who do singles (actually, I don't even jump anymore) is the amount/thickness of padding and other production techniques that make a boot stiffer (or less stiff). But the boot will still be 'lightweight'.

And no, I don't work for Avanta. As I noted upthread, I was fitted for their skates a couple years ago but did not order due to finances. There were 4 levels of stiffness and I would have had the 2nd level (less stiff) - I brought my current skates to the fitting so they could match the stiffness as well as see how they'd worn in (a good idea for anyone ordering new skates, stock or custom).

If only you can serve as technician for a boot, why outfit an Olympian unless you are sure you'll be at the Games?

The tech at the Olys was not the tech who mounted the blades. That would have been someone at/near Karen's training rink. It sounds like they used the wrong screws...I wasn't aware the sole was any thicker than other soles but they do have that Rockerz sole on the bottom of a leather layer, so maybe different screws are needed b/c of that. I would think/hope Avanta would provide instructions for mounting (I remember Klingbeil sent letters to fitters about their policy of mounting blades down the middle...my skate guy showed it to me when I got my blades mounted back in 2006) but I have no idea since I didn't purchase skates.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Their original post several pages back from 3/7 (re: discontinuing their arrangement with Karen Chen) originally noted "For further clarification, please contact USFSA" but this has been stricken from the most recent update (copy of the letter with their statement). It made me wonder whether they have a problem with US Figure Skating selecting & appointing a technician for the Olympics.

*** U.S. figure skaters stay sharp thanks to a man toting leather, scissors and a blade :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...to-a-man-toting-leather-scissors-and-a-blade/

As Team USA’s skate tech, Misir is responsible for all American figure skates, including those belonging to stars like Nathan Chen, Adam Rippon and Mirai Nagasu. He described his position as an “insurance policy” of sorts for the U.S. team. If everything goes according to plan, Misir said, he wouldn’t be needed. But that never happens.

Misir has already had to sharpen a few pairs of skates, and polish plenty of blade nicks during theses Games. Earlier this week, one of the U.S. skaters (he wouldn’t say who) had a skate heel separate from its boot. He fixed that, too.

Misir took over from Cunningham a few years ago. While this is his first Olympics with Team USA, Misir has more than two decades in the figure skating business. (He’s also a vice president of the Jackson Ultima skate company.)

 

[LimeyOrange]

This whole story is a lose-lose situation. Avanta is completely in the wrong in my opinion. There was nothing in Chen's post that gave any indication that she thought Avanta was to blame for her boot problems. And this is confirmed by her history of trouble finding correct boots for her feet/back in the past.

No, Avanta, if someone posts they are having car problems, I wouldn't think there was a problem with that specific car manufacturer? Who does that? I would think the car had normal aging, maybe it needed normal maintenance done, maybe the person had an accident with the car. When I saw Karen's posts, I had similar thoughts, ie she had not maintained her skates well, the skates had normal aging and needed to be replaced, she had some sort of freak accident with them.

So, I find Avanta's attach on Chen, malicious, and completely unprovoked and unwarranted. I had never heard of their company before, and now have a extremely low opinion of them. From reading this thread, it appears many skaters have the same thoughts. And while, of course, I support the right of companies to chose giving freebies to anyone at any time, the fact that Avanta made this decision solely to punish Chen for a comment, that Avanta decided to completely read the wrong way, well that is another strike against Avanta in my book.

Unfortunately, this is also a lose situation for Chen. Needing new skates every 6 weeks is a huge expense that she will now have to come up with. And it sounds like she had went Avanta after trying many other skates and not being able to find suitable skates.

Sad all around. It remains to be seen if Avanta's momentary happiness in publicly lambasting and financially punishing a skater will hurt their business.

 

[Spun Silver]

Their original post several pages back from 3/7 (about discontinuing their arrangement with Karen Chen) originally noted "For further clarification, please contact USFSA" but it has been stricken from the most recent update (copy of the letter with the statement). It made me wonder whether they have a problem with US Figure Skating appointing a technician for the Olympics.e/

My guess would be that USFS said Leave us out of this, or, We did not give you permission to use our name in that letter. Using USFS's name like that implies that they approve of Avanta's position. I can't imagine they want to be seen as siding against their own skater, esp when Avanta's original post was so OTT and harsh. I would guess that USFS might be encouraging or trying to facilitate a peaceful resolution that leaves both parties' reputations intact. Karen is obviously irreplaceable and Murillo seems to be an exceptionally skilled bootmaker.

But maybe they are just on Karen's side, period. They would be either for her or for a peaceful solution, definitely not for the bootmaker over Karen. So Avanta misjudged again in using their name, IMO. Even if there was a real protocol of some sort that Avanta had in mind, it would not give them the right to use USFS's name in a public dispute like this. Ugh, I really don't want their business to fail but they are their own worst enemy when it comes to PR.

Then again, they shouldn't have tangled with the Quiet Assassin.

 

[rvi5]

...It sounds like they used the wrong screws...I wasn't aware the sole was any thicker than other soles but they do have that Rockerz sole on the bottom of a leather layer, so maybe different screws are needed b/c of that.

My understanding was, the longer screws were needed because the third party installed shims between the sole and blade mounting plate. The screws would need to extend through the metal mounting plate, the shim, the sole, and imbed into the boot leather. Perhaps I am mistaken regarding where the shims go, since I am thinking in terms of skis (I once had canting shims installed on my old skis, between the binding and ski). The SNG poster said it was beneath the blade (wouldn’t that be above, unless you hold the skate upside-down?)

I am unclear regarding which boot appears in the picture. Is it an old, or new boot? If an old boot, that means the additional permanent screws were never installed since Karen first obtained the skates? How long has she been skating with temporary screws? Perhaps she did have permanent screws, but someone removed a few for the shim installation and testing, and never replaced them. When were the shims installed?

 

[Debbie S]

I am unclear regarding which boot appears in the picture. Is it an old, or new boot? If an old boot, that means the additional permanent screws were never installed since Karen first obtained the skates? How long has she been skating with temporary screws? Perhaps she did have permanent screws, but someone removed a few for the shim installation testing, and never replaced them. When were the shims installed?

OK, i reread SNG's post...i wasn't sure what thry meant by wedges...i guess they would be that black layer under the sole? When I saw the pic, I assumed it was the Rockerz sole. Who knows what went on with her blade mounting and why the add'l screws weren't added. But I have seen other skaters (not anywhere near Karen's level) not bother to get a permanent mounting or they wait a long time b/c the shop is far away. The last time I had blades mounted on my skates, the shop was at a rink, so I was able to try out the mounting and when my skate guy determined it was fine, he put the extra screws in. Otherwise, it would have been an hour and a half drive each way a 2nd time.

 

[rvi5]

Are you referring to the photo in the original thread post, or a picture elsewhere? I don’t see the shim in the photo linked in this thread. The only black area I see, is the separation gap between the boot and the grey sole. The photo angle does not show enough of the boot bottom to see the shim.

 

[Debbie S]

Are you referring to the photo in the original thread post, or a picture elsewhere? I don’t see the shim in the photo linked in this thread. The only black area I see, is the separation gap between the boot and the grey sole. The photo angle does not show enough of the boot bottom to see the shim.

I'm referring to the pic posted on Avanta's IG, which is a screen shot of the pic Karen posted on her IG story at the Olys.

 

[LimeyOrange]

Interesting that the Avanta FB page still has several pictures and references to Karen on their site. One would think that if they want no association with her, they would remove all references to her.

Oh, I'm sure they are actively working on getting them deleted (just like they apparently still are the original post.) Apparently deleting stuff takes far longer for them, then it does for more internet savvy people.

 

[MacMadame]

How long has she been skating with temporary screws? Perhaps she did have permanent screws, but someone removed a few for the shim installation and testing, and never replaced them. When were the shims installed?

If she was having problems with her boots and the skate technician for Team USA worked on them, the blade placement probably changed and so only temporary screws put/kept in until Karen could decide if the new mounting would work.

For all we know, the permanent screws were put in the very next time she skated in them. There are an awful lot of assumptions being made here about practices that, IME, are completely normal.

 

[rvi5]

If she was having problems with her boots and the skate technician for Team USA worked on them, the blade placement probably changed and so only temporary screws put/kept in until Karen could decide if the new mounting would work.

For all we know, the permanent screws were put in the very next time she skated in them. There are an awful lot of assumptions being made here about practices that, IME, are completely normal.

I doubt the permanent screws were reinstalled while at the Olympics. According to SNG’s original post, Avanta had the opportunity to examine the damaged skates. I assume it was likely after Karen returned home from the Olympics. That was when they discovered the issues with the shims and screws. That would imply either Karen never used the skates at the Olympics after the sole became separated (makes sense), or the permanent screws were not installed (unless someone took them out again before Avanta examined the skates).

 

[Jaana]

I know that skating costs a huge lot of money, especially for elite skaters, and there must be a big temptation to accept boot sponsor. As there are often boot problems (probably much more than announced) it would be wise to choose and pay for one´s own boots, not to be restricted in that important area.

 

[BittyBug]

If she was having problems with her boots and the skate technician for Team USA worked on them, the blade placement probably changed and so only temporary screws put/kept in until Karen could decide if the new mounting would work.

For all we know, the permanent screws were put in the very next time she skated in them. There are an awful lot of assumptions being made here about practices that, IME, are completely normal.

That is not my post in your quote.

 

[vesperholly]

Looks like Avanta are planning to be at US Adult Nationals. Hope the local organizing committee and/or USFS are having second thoughts about letting them be there. https://www.avantaskating.com/

We'll see. They were supposed to be at Adult Nationals in 2016 and didn't show up.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

My guess would be that USFS said Leave us out of this, or, We did not give you permission to use our name in that letter. Using USFS's name like that implies that they approve of Avanta's position. I can't imagine they want to be seen as siding against their own skater, esp when Avanta's original post was so OTT and harsh. I would guess that USFS might be encouraging or trying to facilitate a peaceful resolution that leaves both parties' reputations intact. Karen is obviously irreplaceable and Murillo seems to be an exceptionally skilled bootmaker.

But maybe they are just on Karen's side, period. They would be either for her or for a peaceful solution, definitely not for the bootmaker over Karen. So Avanta misjudged again in using their name, IMO. Even if there was a real protocol of some sort that Avanta had in mind, it would not give them the right to use USFS's name in a public dispute like this. Ugh, I really don't want their business to fail but they are their own worst enemy when it comes to PR.

Then again, they shouldn't have tangled with the Quiet Assassin.

I doubt USFS thinks Karen is "irreplaceable." I doubt they think that of any of their single skaters anymore, except for Nathan Chen. It's all about winning medals or, if that's not realistic, at least skating up to your abilities. They want skaters who have strong technical skills and are reasonably consistent.

Karen is a lovely skater but she currently appears to lack both those qualities. I listened to what Doug Haw said about her technique on TSL and it sounds like she may be facing a difficult to correct problem with her jumping technique.

As for the boot issue, for Karen's sake it needs to become a non-issue as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter who was right and who was wrong. It's one of those things that never makes a skater look good in the eyes of their federation.