Ashley Wagner: Did Rafael Make a Difference?

[arakwafan2006]

So, Ashley is using her Free Skate to MR with the same damn choreography again and in her recent competition, she still is two footing jumps, under rotating them as well as spinning in slow motion. Rafael has clearly helped her with her confidence but what else in the hell do they work on?

Her stroking is still rushed and shallow. The step sequence is so slow it looks like she's tip- toeing around the house trying not to wake anyone. How on earth do you scrap so many programs? The David Wilson and i believe 2 Bourne numbers. Ashley competed at basically a club event and could not pull off a 3/3, STILL and the triple sequence didn't exist in the 2nd half. I like her for sure but I don't know if i prefer her with Rafael or John Nicks. I guess i would like to see the type of improvement that skaters make with the Florida team working with the French pairs and Meghan and Eric. It looks like they are working on weaknesses because they ARE!

For Rafael to be known for his expertise of elements, in particular the jumps, i'm not seeing it... Do you think he has improved her?

 

[kwanatic]

Raf has helped guide Ashley to several GP medals, a 3rd national title and the only world medal the U.S. has had since 2006. She's the most decorated U.S. skater of her era so, yeah...I'd say he's made a difference.

Ashley is never going to have the skating skills of Mao or the jump consistency of Medvedeva. She's not going to have the fastest spins or best footwork. Basically stop asking to see the sun at midnight...it ain't gonna happen!

I'm not thrilled with a 3rd trip around with Moulin Rouge but whatever...her other programs didn't work so she went back to what she knew. Yes, it's a bummer but there's not much point in fixating on it. Hopefully she'll have her refreshed choreography ready to go at the first real competition of the season.

Also keep in mind the season hasn't even started yet so expecting Ashley have a flawless performance this early is asking for too much. No need to pull out all the stops for a club competition. And obviously she didn't need to; she still won.

Just relax and let the season actually get under way...and perhaps lower your expectations a smidge too.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Raf has helped guide Ashley to several GP medals, a 3rd national title and the only world medal the U.S. has had since 2006. She's the most decorated U.S. skater of her era so, yeah...I'd say he's made a difference.

Keep in mind Ashley isn't a spring chicken. She's counting down the clock on her career so the name of the game this season is stay afloat. She's never going to have the skating skills of Mao or the jump consistency of Medvedeva. She's not going to have the fastest spins or best footwork. Basically stop asking to see the sun at midnight...it ain't gonna happen!

I'm not thrilled with a 3rd trip around with Moulin Rouge but whatever...her other programs didn't work so she went back to what she knew. Yes, it's a bummer but there's not much point in fixating on it. Hopefully she'll have her refreshed choreography ready to go at the first real competition of the season.

Also keep in mind the season has yet to begin so expecting Ashley have a flawless performance at the beginning of October is asking a bit much. No need to pull out all the stops for a club competition.

Just relax and let the season actually get under way...and perhaps lower your expectations a smidge too.

Lower my expectations? For you I’ll make them clear. Clear 3/3. New material once in a while.marked Improvement in terms of elements. That’s supposed to happen when you work on the same shit day in and day out.

 

[kwanatic]

Lower my expectations? For you I’ll make them clear. Clear 3/3. New material once in a while.marked Improvement in terms of elements. That’s supposed to happen when you work on the same shit day in and day out.

You ain't gotta make it clear for me. I'm not the one competing.

All I'm advising you to do is be realistic. It's quite foolish to expect Ashley to magically become a different skater at this point in her career. She hasn't had a consistent 3-3 since her junior days, she's never had the best spins, her edges have always been shallow and slow...these aren't new developments. This has been her skating for a lot of her career. She pulls it all together with great performance and good timing and that's why she's been successful, but Ashley is not the most talented skater in the field and I'm sure she knows that. She wants to stand on the podium in Pyeongchang but, again looking at things realistically, it's a long shot. A number of skaters would need to have meltdowns and she'd have to be amazing. That's not to say it won't happen...it's just not probable given how deep the field will be.

Also keep in mind it's October 4th. The season hasn't even started yet so expecting Ashley to be in peak shape, hitting all of her elements and blowing you away is asking for too much. She's never been that kind of skater. She tends to ramp up as the season goes along...at least she used to. Honestly after the season she had last year I'm not too sure what to expect from Ashley this year which is why I say it's a good idea to lower your expectations. If she skates like she did last season and someone else steps up at nationals, she very well could be left off the team.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Ashley's worlds medal is legitimate? High transitions? Highest skating skills? Yeah...never. More like should have been in the 6s and 7s. Raf didn't really help her much, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[bardtoob]

Well, we know going to US Nationals with Raf is better than going to US Nationals without any coach, especially in an Olympic year

In reality, I think Raf has kept Ashley from regressing with age, more than anything else. However, she has not been at her peak for about a year and a half now. Then again, she still is vital to the US for now as a result of Gold being out of it. I suspected that Ashley was going to be on the bubble with Gold and Karen Chen being locks for the Olympic Team, but now Ashley is one of the skaters being chased.

 

[chapis]

I feel like it's the kind of thread that would be made for Gracie , but now that she's gone, it's Ashley's turn.

Although I am disappointed with her recycled programs, we all know her record. Fair or unfair scores, she have show us that she can win medals. I have never expected much of her in technical aspect, but I expected more of her artistic side.

 

[arakwafan2006]

I feel like it's the kind of thread that would be made for Gracie , but now that she's gone, it's Ashley's turn.

Although I am disappointed with her recycled programs, we all know her record. Fair or unfair scores, she have show us that she can win medals. I have never expected much of her in technical aspect, but I expected more of her artistic side.

You plan on answering the question posed or nah?

 

[Simone411]

Lower my expectations? For you I’ll make them clear. Clear 3/3. New material once in a while.marked Improvement in terms of elements. That’s supposed to happen when you work on the same shit day in and day out.

Well throughout the years, I've seen a lot of skaters work as hard as possible on their elements with determination, use the same choreography and music because he or she may feel more comfortable with it, and still don't make it on that podium. The reason for that is that no one is perfect and there will be mistakes. Ashley has done what several skaters have done (I should say multiple skaters) by using the same music and programs they feel comfortable with and I wouldn't call it sh_t because Ashley won a Silver Medal at Worlds. It wasn't just given to her because there were judges from several different countries that apparently saw the quality of her skating, and at that moment in time, felt she deserved the Silver Medal for all the hard work she put into it.

Every skater that competes works hard, practices numerous hours every day. They don't just get out there and they certainly don't think they're doing the same sh_t every day. They have to practice and work on their jumps, spins, footwork, choreography, etc. and it's certainly not sh_t when they are out there all hours of the day. They're working with skating boots and toe picks on ice that may be too wet or too hard. They're working period trying to do the best they can.

 

[chapis]

You plan on answering the question posed or nah?

She was not better with Nicks, her SS are better now, same her spins, and honestly I don´t think she could to get a clean 3-3 with Nicks. She got better results with Rafael than Nicks. And she is 26 yo, the fact of not deteriorating technically is already an achievement, if Mirai and Karen being younger and with more natural talent still have urs, you must have high expectations with Ashley to believe that her coach is the reason of her urs.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

LOL, I hope Ash never visits this thread.

Im more interested in knowing how and will Raf help Mariah? After a year I don't see much, and secondly (and more importantly to me) how did Marina help GG? Or did they even do anything at all.... who knows?

 

[antmanb]

Last competition with Nicks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbpHideriF8

At her peak with raf at 2016 worlds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gouttBMz-UM

It is clear the differences he has made to her skating - from how much more kneebend and speed she has, to the quality of her skating - especially edges right the way through to the better technique on her jumps and faster spins.

She and raf have worked hard and the improvements are obvious. They may be at the limit of her capabilities, and she maybe does still default to two footing and under-rotating at times, all things that can happen to any skater in competition, but overall he's had a great impact on her skating.

I'm not ready to throw her on the scrap pile yet. One competition early in the season doesn't prove anything, certainly not that they're ignoring her weaknesses or working on them.

 

[giselle23]

I love Ashley for her competitive fire and her performing skills. I know it isn't really fair to compare a COP competitive skate to a an exhibition in the 6.0 era, but here is Sasha Cohen skating to One Day I'll Fly Away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpBV8Tntg_o I miss this kind of skating.

ETA: As for Raf, Ashley never had a consistent 3-3 before she started working with him, so yes, he has helped her.

 

[Vagabond]

Well, we know going to US Nationals with Raf is better than going to US Nationals without any coach, especially in an Olympic year

Six posts in, and the thread turns to its inevitable subject: Michelle Kwan.

Let's revisit this once we see whether Wagner does better than the coachless Kween and earns a gold or silver medal in South Korea, shall we?

 

[DimaToe]

Well did Wagner have anything close to a legitimate 3-3 before Rafael? Nicks/Mills did wonders with helping Wagner get closer to being the whole package, but it was Arutyunyan/Kanaeva’s guidance that helped Wagner actually be a contender for the world podium.

 

[Jebrista]

How can a skater scrap so many programs, especially when she gets so much media attention for them?!
She had articles written about her La La Land program and now just scrapped it for a program she skated to for TWO SEASONS already. And she's using a short program she already used. So she's just trying to recreate a season she already skated. What's the point? Versatility makes a skater great.

Second time she's scrapped a long program for an Olympic season. Seems like an unstable situation for me.
I'd like to see her do well. No hate at all, it's just frustrating to see and hear her sound confidence in interviews, and then see behavior on the ice that doesn't speak so highly to that.

 

[IceAlisa]

The influx of skaters wanting to train with Raf should answer your question for you.

 

[cbd1235]

Ashley is 26, the rest of the top skaters are 16-19.

Ash did not have a 3-3 under Nicks, full stop. Since Raf she has shown us dozens of clean flip-toes, some great lutz-toes, and a number of clean examples of the 3Lo-1Lo-3S (a combo everyone doubted she could ever do, EVER). That is improvement, at an age when almost everyone has already retired.

She is a better performer under Raf, she has better basic skating and SS under Raf, and her footwork has improved under him significantly (even though sometimes it's still fairly mediocre). All of her pre-Raf footwork was atrocious. Shine on you crazy diamond, HHCC, Muse were all stellar footwork sequences despite a lower baseline level of basic edge quality than some of the other top skaters. Her lutz also got markedly better before regressing backward

That said she occasionally URs more (mind you, doing THREE 3-3's per event), and her spins have regressed. I also think some of her packaging was more iconic under Philip Mills choreo. But all in all it's hard to harp on AW. She would have never won a world silver under Nicks....

 

[Marco]

Raf is not a miracle worker. He did great keeping her where she is.

 

[aliceanne]

He seems to give his skaters confidence and inspire self-discipline. Wagner and Rippon are not the most technically talented skaters, but they keep plugging away at those jumps instead of giving up or coach-hopping, as Rippon was previously prone to do. A lot of their peers have come and gone and they are still in the mix.

I think having a distinguished coach like Nicks believe in her was a big boost to Wagner at that point in her career, she might have faded away otherwise, and Arutunian may not have been interested.

 

[RoseRed]

Ashley is 26, the rest of the top skaters are 16-19.

Kaetlyn Osmond is 21 (22 in Dec), but I do agree with all your points.

 

[viennese]

Wagner's competitive and athletic edge is transformed with this coach.
That said, I am sure she will be pressured to change to a new program sometime this season. May I suggest the Carole King musical, "Beautiful" - it won a batch of Tony awards. The music is familiar, but some rearrangements for Broadway.

Great story. An artist's journey. A strong pro woman story. This is the most Ashley Wagner musical choice I can think of. "La La Land" is sweet and emotional but too wispy for her.

 

[cbd1235]

Don't Cry for me Argentina would also be an amazing choice for her.

Evita in general. She wouldn't even need a new dress.

 

[MRani]

Don't Cry for me Argentina would also be an amazing choice for her.

Evita in general. She wouldn't even need a new dress.

I would die for a Don’t Cry for Me Argentina program from Ashley. Why did you put this in my head, I’ll never get over not having this now oh nooo...

 

[Marco]

Forget about training a new program. Raf needs to force her to do full run throughs with jumps, spins, footwork and chorero.

She usually skips the spins and footwork during run throughs. She separates practice and competition very clearly and this makes her tense up in actual competition. She also isn't as used to doing the 3loop-3sal and other solo triples and final spins on tired legs, which is exactly why everything she does in actual competition is a notch below what they are in practice and she often runs out of time.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Forget about training a new program. Raf needs to force her to do full run throughs with jumps, spins, footwork and chorero.

She usually skips the spins and footwork during run throughs. She separates practice and competition very clearly and this makes her tense up in actual competition. She also isn't as used to doing the 3loop-3sal and other solo triples and final spins on tired legs, which is exactly why everything she does in actual competition is a notch below what they are in practice and she often runs out of time.

I totally agree with you. Except I am not sure Raf can "force" her to do anything. Unless she starts working really hard, she may won't even make the last group at the OLYS.

 

[tony]

I'm sure this has been stated many times before, but I've heard that Ashley and Adam essentially run the show in practices and they do as they please. Same with Nathan and his mom being more in charge than Rafael (but it seems to work for him).

That is part of why Ashley's skating drives me so crazy. She was improving up until about 2013 and then she just stopped completely, maybe even stepping backwards a bit. I don't feel like she works as hard as she can, and coming out with a program for the third time with absolutely no changes is pretty indicative of that. There is absolutely no reason that she shouldn't be getting anything but level 4 on all of her spins, every single time, and same with the footwork. If she knew it wasn't going to score as high as possible, why keep it the same? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Wyliefan]

I find it really hard to believe that Raf lets anyone else run the show. Maybe I'm mistaken, but he doesn't seem like the type at all.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Ashley is a completely improved skater since 2013. She had wild triple anythings. She's not an enthusiastic spinner but an improved one nevertheless. Rotating is at the upper limit of her abilities but she has a LP with 2 3-3's. I only remember that tired 3-2-2 she used to start her programs with.

She's a tough one. And Raf has been harsh with her in the past. My sense at this point his attitude is "if she wants it, she knows what to do" (She's 26 not an errant middle schooler. )

 

[MRani]

It’s interesting because Raf’s attitude with her last weekend was very different from how he treated her at worlds. In Helsinki he was visibly disappointed with her and seemed like he had reason to expect better. At SC he seemed pretty understanding of her performance/marks and was talking things out with her. He didn’t seemed surprised or upset by how she skated. Some other posters speculated about whether Ashley was hiding an injury that affected her preparation for SC and her performance there and that’s why Raf’s expectations seemed lower. I hope that’s not the case but something did seem off about her.

Anyway, I agree that Ashley needs to do full program run throughs if she’s not already doing them. That goes a long way towards explaining why she looks so different in competition these days compared to practice. But saying she’s not working hard enough or is doing poorly because Raf is letting her run her own lazy show doesn’t sound very believable to me. It just doesn’t fall in line with what we know about either of their personalities. Whatever their flaws, Ashley doesn’t strike me as stupid or lazy and Raf doesn’t strike me as a pushover.