America's Favorite Escape- Baseball ⚾️

Aceon6

Isolating from mean people
Messages
20,527
The whole mess has my head spinning. Kids are taught to steal signs in little league. My 9 yo grand nephew is really observant and is very good at it. The rules are written so anything you can observe is “fair play”. Where it gets weird is the use of electronics to relay the info. How that’s different from someone in the bullpen putting their hat on backwards when they see the signal for an inside slider, I don’t know.

MLB could dig themselves out of a big hole by changing the rule so that only people on the field can relay info, but they don‘t seem to be interested.
 

Cachoo

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,667
I am disgusted but not as disgusted by the years and years when roids were the rage in baseball. Once it was cleaned up you could see the teams that used strategy---such as "small ball" with the San Francisco Giants---and a great bullpen like the KC Royals had in 2015 could lead to a World Series win.

What I think about is all of those players on all of those teams who didn't cheat with steroids and may have been relegated to the minor leagues or who were always destined to lose to those teams where the abuse was so prevalent that their sluggers became uber-sluggers and led their teams to championships---Was that fair??? So yes, the latest scandal upsets me but I think so many other honest people paid dearly for those who enriched their teams and themselves through steroids.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,164
What I think about is all of those players on all of those teams who didn't cheat with steroids and may have been relegated to the minor leagues or who were always destined to lose to those teams where the abuse was so prevalent that their sluggers became uber-sluggers and led their teams to championships---Was that fair??? So yes, the latest scandal upsets me but I think so many other honest people paid dearly for those who enriched their teams and themselves through steroids.
The Astros' cheating undermines the integrity of baseball, but and it affected individuals as well: pitchers who performed poorly against them would have gotten less in free agency or arbitration as a result; in some cases it ended careers. Aaron Judge might have won the 2017 MVP over Jose Altuve, which in addition to being nice for him also has financial implications.

Neither type of cheating is fair and both hurt other players and hurt the game. There's a reason players from other teams are seriously pissed off.
 

Cachoo

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,667
The Astros' cheating undermines the integrity of baseball, but and it affected individuals as well: pitchers who performed poorly against them would have gotten less in free agency or arbitration as a result; in some cases it ended careers. Aaron Judge might have won the 2017 MVP over Jose Altuve, which in addition to being nice for him also has financial implications.

Neither type of cheating is fair and both hurt other players and hurt the game. There's a reason players from other teams are seriously pissed off.
I do agree with you: The reason the steroid scandal upsets me more is because it occurred for over a decade and that is a lot of people who were hurt by this type of cheating. But that doesn't lessen the impact of this latest ugly chapter in baseball.
 

Cachoo

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,667
I have read a lot of player comments, especially from pitchers, that they think the sign stealing is worse than the steriods. Here are a couple: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...-scandal-pitcher-trevor-bauer-says-2020-02-12 https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/baseba...ign-stealing-scandal-or-steroid-era/312475774
I would like to read more from the players and people involved with baseball back in the steroid decade (and 1/2) who felt diminished by the cheating then. Of course someone today is going to feel the sting of stealing signs now. But if you were an honest player on a smaller team that always was crushed by the Yankees, Sox, Rangers etc...are they less affected? I don't know the answer but I do think this pales to the years and years of cheating with roids.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,164
I would like to read more from the players and people involved with baseball back in the steroid decade (and 1/2) who felt diminished by the cheating then.
Chipper Jones discusses the temptation of steroids in this essay:
In 1996, for instance, you’re going to find yourself at a crossroads.

You will see guys putting up huge numbers and know that lots of them are juicing — based on everything you’re hearing, and just by seeing guys bodies change so rapidly. And you’ll seriously consider joining the crowd.

It’s mainly going to be because you’ll be fed up with guys beating you out for Silver Slugger awards and MVPs and All-Star games. But, beyond that, just the idea of getting a little extra boost that might propel you into that upper echelon of players is something that’s going to appeal to you.

So you’re going to be open to using steroids in 1996. Like, really open to it.

And you should be forever grateful that your wife was around to discuss it with you. When you raise the topic with her, and tell her what you’re considering, she’s going to ask you this:

“Would you be able to look your parents in the eye if you earned a bunch of accolades and honors while taking steroids? Would you be O.K. with that?”

It’s going to be all you’ll need to hear.
Back to your post...
Of course someone today is going to feel the sting of stealing signs now. But if you were an honest player on a smaller team that always was crushed by the Yankees, Sox, Rangers etc...are they less affected? I don't know the answer but I do think this pales to the years and years of cheating with roids.
The smaller teams were getting crushed because MLB is far from from a level playing field financially (that's why Moneyball is subtitled "The Art of Winning an Unfair Game"). They too had players who were roiding, just like the big market teams. But it's less egregious IMO not because it wasn't cheating (it was) but because using steroids was ultimately an individual decision; what the Astros did was a team-wide operation.

In some ways the Astros' punishment isn't even as severe as what the Braves got for their shenanigans signing guys in Latin America. John Coppolella was banned for life - and he deserved it - and the organization was hit hard. MLB made an example of them, and they were right to do so. Yet nobody in the Astros organization deserved more than a year's suspension? Even their fine is less than what the Braves lost when they had to forfeit their shadily signed prospects. What kind of message does that send?
 

Cachoo

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,667
Well I do think you are right about the punishment that was meted out (or not meted out for the Astros.) And that was a great letter from Chipper Jones to his former self (and anyone else with his sort of future.) I still think the steroid years were so much worse. But in the end it all stinks.
 

Rob

Beach Bum
Messages
14,816
Many players won MVPs, Cy Youngs, Golden Gloves, Silver Sluggers, Home Run/Batting titles, best ERA, most strikeouts/saves while on PEDs so I think this aspect of the cheating is akin to Altuve winning MVP over Aaron Judge. It is harder to say that a World Series was won due to PEDs when (i) players on both teams (and on both playoff teams throughout the playoffs) were juicing, which seems to be the case since it was so rampant, (ii) the well known juicer perhaps was not the biggest hitter/best pitcher in the series. Even though there could be quite a few asterisks next to some WS titles, the asterisks would also appear next to the WS loser in most cases (if they won the division, league titles with juicers on the roster). That apparently isn't the case with the Dodgers, who were not using electronic equipment to a competitive advantage.
 

Rob

Beach Bum
Messages
14,816
ESPN is reporting that MLB will be suspending spring training and delaying opening day.
 

Firedancer

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,509
ESPN is reporting that MLB will be suspending spring training and delaying opening day.
Disappointing but the right decision and not really unexpected after the other events that have been cancelled.
 

Rob

Beach Bum
Messages
14,816
Opening Day is delayed at least 2 weeks, spring training cancelled. Phew. I would have wanted to go, but now we have some time to see what's what.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,164
I'd watch that.
You can watch on ESPN :)

More information about the KBO:
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,164
Tom Glavine was probably the most visible union rep during the 1994-5 players' strike, and he has some interesting insights here:

Also this is a stupid meme but the Randy Johnson version of it made me :lol:
 

Rob

Beach Bum
Messages
14,816
I had Nats tickets for Opening day (WS Banner) and April 4 (WS rings ceremony) so I am sad I didn't get to see this in person, but very happy they are televising! Shame they can't be together, but they shouldn't have to wait another year for their rings!
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,164
This is an interesting article about an unexpected second career:
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
3,372
I can't decide if this is the greatest thing ever or the worst, but either way it's going to be the weirdest. The lack of fans is going to be so disconcerting, and I assume with no fans, there'll be no piped in fan prompts. No great catches in the stands, no proposals, no fan interference, no negotiations over catching some rookie's first homerun.

Ghost town baseball. But with a season that short and that geographically limited, there'll truly be no way to know who's going to win. And it'll be nice to focus uncertainty on things other than CV19 and the upcoming election.
 

Aceon6

Isolating from mean people
Messages
20,527
Having the legal protection and special status just exposes how greedy MLB owners and agents are. I wonder how the players feel when they’re not parroting their agent and union nonsense.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
3,372
The schedule that people have been assuming is teams play 40 games within their division and 20 games with the same division but opposite league. So the Yankees would play 40 games opposite Boston, Baltimore, Toronto and Tampa and 20 games against the Mets, Phillies, Nationals, Marlins and Braves. The idea is that would cut down on traveling.

Leaving aside the Toronto issues, that schedule has a big bad problem. As of the moment, if you can even spell the word Florida, you're in for a 2 week quarantine in NYS. So neither the Yankees or the Mets can play either Florida team in New York or in Florida.

And while I have my doubts about how easy it would be to enforce such a quarantine with ordinary folk, if the Marlins or the Rays show up in their uniforms, they might be pretty easy to spot.

Granted, the quarantine is based on what's happening right now in Florida, but the risk of another flareup there during the abridged season means there can be no certainty about the schedule, at least for the two NY teams.

The whole thing gives me a headache.

ETA to say Cuomo says it's fine for Yankee and Mets players to come back to NY if they've been training in Florida, but there's nothing in this article about what would happen during the actual season.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information